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Archive 2013 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400

  
 
StillFingerz
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


400 f5.6L or 100-400 f5.6L used at 400mm...with T/Cs!

This has been discussed to a near disgusting point, and with regards to a utility/versatility standpoint the zoom has it hands down IMHO. From my searches the prime seems to be a bit faster AF and sharpness wise, but there seems to be little info on how either lens handles a T/C IQ wise.

I really can't manage a 500mm or larger lens, budget nor body/arms can reasonably support the bigger whites, so I must manage more reach with T/Cs and work with the IQ loss. And, yes I'm aware AF speed and sharpness take a hit; and that AF at f8 is only possible with a few bodies... I tend to use glass from 17mm up to 300mm for near 95% of my shots, but I'd like to add a 400mm to the mix.

I'll use the 400 for mostly daytime light action, kids sports, some auto/bike racing and some wildlife and birding of some sort. This long range shooting is pretty hit n miss for me; my disability has it's physical and mobility limits, but it's still fun so I'll not give up easily

A 70-200 f4L and 300 f4L have been used successfully with the 1.4x T/C; II and III. Although I'm addicted to IS when hand-holding, even a bare 300 f4L IS can be an issue weight wise; I tend to use a monopod or a wheelchair affixed support system to manage heavy gear...it's my only choice at the moment. And, a 1D Mark II N is in my kit and will be the primary body when T/Cs are needed, it will be use with support, otherwise a 7D will be used with the bare lens...hand-holding is doubtful.

So, for you that have used both the 400 f5.6L prime and the 100-400L zoom, which has the better IQ when shooting with either the 1.4x or 2x Mark II or III T/Cs?

I'm pondering renting/testing both, but if you will indulge me, it might save me some time and funds, both of which are a treasured often fleeting resources for me these dayz...

Cheers,
Jerry




Sep 13, 2013 at 10:51 PM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Well, since the 200-400 is not versatile enough for your needs , have you ever thought of abandoning DSLR's altogether and going to something like?:

http://robinwong.blogspot.it/2013/09/olympus-om-d-e-m1-review-image.html

Much lighter and easier to handle.

I was never exceedingly pleased with using a 1.4x TC on either of those lenses, and considered results with a 2x TC not acceptable to me. The 400 DO gives me better results, but you are looking at more weight and cost.

Tony



Sep 13, 2013 at 11:23 PM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Tony thanks, have had the OMD in hand an didn't like it much at all, I'm cursed with big mitts and have just enough strength to manage a DSLR well; within my limitations that is, and the OMD's remote didn't work for me at all....that's a deal breaker in my case.

This all may be for not, there's just no getting around the IQ and T/C curve, can't argue with that, unless you get the big Mark II glass and or the 200-400L. Even renting one gives me the shivers; wouldn't want to drop such expensive glass, even a versatile lens like to 200-400 Even getting a 400mm gives me pause. The DO looks nice...the cost is a no go tho.

I've found the 300 f4L with 1.4x T/C quite acceptable, was hoping the prime or zoom might exhibit the same performance...hope to hear from some others, see some images if there are some.

BTW, thanks for the NeatImage suggestion, it's a good product, have begun using it with 50D and 7D files and am liking what I see so far, it does help with excessive noise quite well!

Cheers,
Jerry



Sep 14, 2013 at 12:10 AM
EB-1
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


I have those lenses, both 300/4 versions, a 2.8 IS, 400/4 DO, etc., and do not find either the 400/5.6 or 100-400 acceptable for general use with a 1.4x TC, let alone a 2x. There is no free lunch over 400-420 mm. Of course the 400 prime is better, and is sufficient on a 7D or similar for handheld use at fast shutter speeds or on a support. In your situation, I try a 100-400 first though.

It's too bad nobody makes a modern, high-grade 200-500/5.6. The problem is that it would probably weight about five pounds and cost over $5,000.

EBH



Sep 14, 2013 at 12:48 AM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Thanks EBH, I hear 'get the zoom' a lot and am struggling, if the object is to shoot at 400mm only...why the extra cost/weight of the zoom...me just thinking out loud


Sep 14, 2013 at 02:03 AM
Tom Dix
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


The zoom is quite good, however, the prime is a bit better in the IQ area and simpler to handhold, yet not as flexible as the zoom. I've owned both, for a short time, and almost always grabbed the 400. I'm not fond of either w a tc, however, if forced the prime is better, yet only slightly.
I'm assuming the 400 DO is out of the question as it is relatively light, yet a much different price point.
The DO has a unique look and takes a 1.4 quite well. Probably irrelevant.
Between the 2 you mentioned, the prime.



Sep 14, 2013 at 02:25 AM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Tom Dix wrote:
The zoom is quite good, however, the prime is a bit better in the IQ area and simpler to handhold, yet not as flexible as the zoom. I've owned both, for a short time, and almost always grabbed the 400. I'm not fond of either w a tc, however, if forced the prime is better, yet only slightly.
I'm assuming the 400 DO is out of the question as it is relatively light, yet a much different price point.
The DO has a unique look and takes a 1.4 quite well. Probably irrelevant.
Between the 2 you mentioned, the
...Show more

Tom, thanks for your reply, the DO looks sweet, images from it are really nice, but budget and weight are the driving issue. Just want to try my hand at some action shooting, have an T90 and 400 f4.5 from the old dayz, guess I'm just older now, the combo seems awful heavy

Cheers,
Jerry



Sep 14, 2013 at 02:47 AM
surf monkey
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Checkout the comparison here: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=278&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=3&API=1&LensComp=113&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=10&APIComp=0

Looks like the prime is quite a bit better in the corners.
It's also been stated that the 100-400 is only about 385mm at the long end.



Sep 14, 2013 at 02:50 AM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


surf monkey wrote:
Checkout the comparison here: http://www.the-digital-picture.com/Reviews/ISO-12233-Sample-Crops.aspx?Lens=278&Camera=453&Sample=0&FLI=3&API=1&LensComp=113&CameraComp=453&SampleComp=0&FLIComp=10&APIComp=0

Looks like the prime is quite a bit better in the corners.
It's also been stated that the 100-400 is only about 385mm at the long end.


Eric, thanks, hadn't thought about finding info at TDP...I'm on my way
Cheers,
Jerry



Sep 14, 2013 at 03:19 AM
dbehrens
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


StillFingerz wrote:
Eric, thanks, hadn't thought about finding info at TDP...I'm on my way
Cheers,
Jerry


Just keep in mind that these are controlled tests, e.g. anchored to a tripod and MLU. If you are looking at real world use then IS makes a strong argument. I chose the 100-400 - my reasons can be found here.
Dave



Sep 14, 2013 at 06:48 AM
jjoejr
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Have used 400/5.6 for last 7 years for wildlife, birds, and many other subjects. Always disappointed with 1.4 III converter and never used it. Until recently. I dot tuned my 400 and it was perfect. Then added 1.4 converter on 1D mark IV. Found it was off considerably. Recalibrate and am very surprised and happy of the results. Now I split time with and without it.
John



Sep 14, 2013 at 06:57 AM
psharvic
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Jerry, the 400 + 1.4II is my standard butterfly/dragonfly rig. Almost always with a tripod and, of course, MF on a 7d. I don't use my wife's 100-400 but it is noticeably bulkier. Attached is a pic.







Sep 14, 2013 at 07:13 AM
ChrisRD
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


The 100-400 I owned was excellent after a trip to Canon but my 400 seemed to take less of an IQ hit with the 1.4X TC. The prime is a bit better in the corners/edges to begin with and a TC just widens the gap. I was quite happy with the IQ from the 400+1.4X combo. Of course being F/8 with no IS it was basically a daylight rig.


Sep 14, 2013 at 07:22 AM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Jerry, you are stuck between and rock and a hard place. We all want to get to that 500mm range, but it is not possible without adding more weight and cost, or sacrificing IQ by adding a TC.

I would say for your situation the best bet would be the 400 f5.6 prime plus 1.4x TC used with your 1DMkII, or the 7D with a non-reporting TC.

It is only a matter of a few years before I will have to abandon DSLR systems and go to a lighter system. I tried a Nikon V1 a few years ago, but found it too slow, terrible VF, and buttons too small. However, it was nice and light and gave pretty good results for subjects that were not moving. They are making great advances in these smaller systems and I am waiting for one with an optical viewfinder and that has decent AF in AI Servo.







Sep 14, 2013 at 10:46 AM
dmcharg
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Had the same dilemma a few years ago when i was trying to decide on a good telephoto lens. I have used the 300 F4, 400 5.6 and 100-400. In testing i found any difference in IQ between the primes and the zoom was more than compensated for by the sheer flexibility of the 100-400. The IS and closer focus distance of the 300 F4 & 100-400 also makes them far more flexible in variable conditions. In the end i went with the 100-400 and have no regrets, its a really great lens and amazingly flexible. Having used the 100-400 now for a while there is literally a ton of shots i would more than likely have missed had i been fixed at 300 or 400. The 100-400 really shines in its all around flexibility - wildlife, birds, landscape,events, even some macro its a great lens.You can't go wrong with any of these lens and they are as good as your going to get without spending a LOT more cash and carry around a much bigger lens. I don't think any of these lens are going to really shine with a TC but i am sure you can still get very nice results, a lot will depend on your available light.


Sep 14, 2013 at 12:48 PM
StillFingerz
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


Thanks for everyone's input and images, while re-reading your comments and TDP's reviews of both lenses two items really caught my eye.

The weight difference between the prime and zoom isn't really that much, only about 4oz., so it's not that big of an issue...as was thought!

The minimum focusing distance with the prime is near double that of the zoom. Closer focusing is a biggie for me as I'm sure I'd want to add extension tubes for flowers n such. That magnification factor, even just a bit more, really would be quite usable; is very important!

When my arm strength is ready I'll rent both, take a week to evaluate each. All your images really did help, there seems to be only minor differences in sharpness between these lenses. And as for AF speed, I'm not exactly quick on the draw myself.

Quite often the 17-40 and 70-200 f4L IS are my most used combo, I can see the utility/versatility in swapping zooms. Having 17-400mm with a Crop or FF body would be stellar, and the 100-400 zoom would fit without issue in a bag; it's actually shorter than the 300 f4

There's more than just shooting at 400mm to consider. I get such versatility from the 300 f4 with tubes and extenders for flower work, I was thinking the 400 prime might do the same, but it wont, not with it's huge MFD.

Seems I've more weight training ahead of me, hand-holding this lens would be optimal and if I can do so then the IS would be a big help; it is with every other lens in my kit.

You folks are the best, thanks for your public and private comments, and your indulging yet another 400 vs 100-400 questioning. Your efforts have born much fruit, food for thought, and I appreciate every comment, quip and image

Cheers,
Jerry



Sep 14, 2013 at 02:11 PM
Michael White
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


I bought a 100-400 some months back and was playing with it and the 1.4 canon tc mkI version and wasn't happy with it at the time but it was op error I realized later so I've picked it up again and playing with it without the tc and i'm a lot more happy with it. the 100-400 is the si=ame size as a 70-200 f2.8is mkI they even share the same collar.


Sep 14, 2013 at 07:03 PM
MS PHOTO
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


400mm 5.6 , is a awesome lens, most times your alway at 400 anyway, just my 2 cents.
Paul



Sep 14, 2013 at 07:11 PM
surf monkey
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Not Again...Yep, 400 f5.6 or 100-400


MS PHOTO wrote:
most times your alway at 400 anyway


"It's called Sex Panther. 60% of the time it works every time."



Sep 15, 2013 at 12:12 AM





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