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Archive 2013 · We can do better.
  
 
Tom Hicks
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · We can do better.


Guys thanks for your continued discussion of both the photography aspects of the forum , the temperament of the forum and how each and everyone feels about the forum . Had I not stirred the pot as I did ,none of these things would have come out, and the forums would have continued to go down the same road it has been on for the past couple of years . As 12 monkeys has stated the forums were being carried by a hand full of shooter , when in years past it was well over thirty or so , Back in the day your post would be on page 3 in a matter or hours and you would have some 400 to 500 or even 1000's of views with 25 to 75 replies and for some shooter even in the hundreds. For the sake of the forum I can't worry about one or two shooter leaving for lack of backbone . The strength of the forum as a whole is far more important . I promise you there are hundreds of people watching this thread that are lurking and are making up their mind as to wether they are going to sign up or not . You tell me when in the last 3 years has there been as much dialog as this .

I lead by example for the first 7 years after that we had some other top shooters coming into the fold , yes Brian and John were two of them . There for a while they had some friction going on between them , but things settled down . They both had strong opinions about things and both had there followers, these things are ok they work themselves out. I have been and hope to continue to be the most active Moderator with his shooters that Fred has ever had . Maybe Dash was about the same in the people forum but that was 8 years ago or so. I have always tried to inspire and bring deeper thought into this forum .

As for Jack, you are relatively new here and were not around in the hay days of the forum , I appreciate your concerns and don't really mind any of the criticism, but speaking about things you were not around to see at the time is - well you know . No one loves this forum as much as I.

Where is Jody our friendly Canadian Macro-Micro shooter , I wish he would chime in . He might be able to shed some light . Could be good or bad for me though.

Tom



Edited on Oct 06, 2013 at 04:28 AM · View previous versions



Oct 06, 2013 at 02:27 AM
buthidae
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · We can do better.


Tom -
I am one of those lurkers about whom you speak.

For me, nothing improves a casual public space where folks with similar interests meet up for fun more than an arrogant, illiterate nazi redefining the space. Your ad hominem approach is really, really swell.

I can do ad hominem too. FYI, the plural of "guy" is "guys". "Guy's" is possessive. That is second grade English. Maybe you should not be moderating a forum unless you can do it it some recognized language?

I miss Lord V, so thanks a lot for driving him off.



Edited by Tom Hicks on Oct 06, 2013 at 04:26 AM



Oct 06, 2013 at 04:03 AM
Tom Hicks
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · We can do better.


buthidae wrote:
Tom -
I am one of those lurkers about whom you speak.

For me, nothing improves a casual public space where folks with similar interests meet up for fun more than an arrogant, illiterate nazi redefining the space. Your ad hominem approach is really, really swell.

I can do ad hominem too. FYI, the plural of "guy" is "guys". "Guy's" is possessive. That is second grade English. Maybe you should not be moderating a forum unless you can do it it some recognized language?

I miss Lord V, so thanks a lot for driving him off.



Thanks for correcting my spelling for me , A Nazi interesting .

Tom



Oct 06, 2013 at 04:26 AM
buthidae
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · We can do better.


Lowercase "nazi", not "Nazi".

Some folks probably wouldn't understand the difference.



Oct 06, 2013 at 05:02 AM
MarkB1
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · We can do better.


It sure looks like the net is not a good place for communicating anything of value ... Too many missing elements.

Edited on Nov 16, 2013 at 05:14 PM · View previous versions



Oct 06, 2013 at 07:00 AM
e6filmuser
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · We can do better.


It has been said that there is a fine line between obsession and insanity. To that, I would add, passion and anger and discussion and argument.

Perhaps here we can also add, this time a scale, appreciation and love. The latter being easier to write, I will use that. We either post or "lurk" because we have a love of photography. That would include form, colour, texture, lighting, pattern and composition (and perhaps, much more). Some of us also have a "love" of insects, flowers, etc. (Whether that extends to stacks of pencils, nuts and bolts and suchlike posted elswhere, I have my doubts but it would extend to e.g mineral crystals). Posting images, or discussing them, here helps to share and spread that love.

In such forums there are members whose first language is not English, so where would criticism of the language and grammer of submitted text start or stop? I find that typos are more frequent when I am excited, or have strong feelings, about the current issue. As a Brit, and an Englishman, I am aware that such forums tend to have American hosts and moderators so I have to respect the use of American English. (The forum would greatly benefit from a preview option before submitting a post).

What does upset me (not refering to this forum) is deliberate rudeness and inapproriate comments. An example of the latter was a recent experience elsewhere, where moderator (whether as personal opinion or not is irrelevant) was making comments, in replies to my topics, which amounted to technically incorrect or impractical and misleading suggestions for outdoor insect macro, having never posted any images of outdoor subject, while being prolific with studio shots. [Edit] The previous sentence should have qualified my objection: it is to remarks which would be taken to be expert and/or authoritative because of who posted them but there being little or no reason for them to be taken as such. [Edit ends].

Harold



Oct 06, 2013 at 08:19 AM
e6filmuser
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · We can do better.


MarkB1 wrote:
Post a few pix Harold


OK. I've made a start. I just wanted to remind folks whose idea it was!

Harold



Oct 14, 2013 at 12:00 PM
coder
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · We can do better.


I'm not surprised Brian reacted the way he did. It is unfortunate given how much he has contributed to this forum.

All macro shots do not have to be about art and people shouldn't shoot to make other people happy.

I think Brian has posted some of the most artful shots I have ever seen with some of his water drop refractions.

I also don't think Tom meant to offend anyone. I feel Tom is sincere in what he says and believe he is just trying to get the best out of people in his own way.

Go out and shoot, have fun, make images that make you happy, that's my advice.




Oct 25, 2013 at 01:13 PM
Dalantech
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · We can do better.


buthidae wrote:
I miss Lord V, so thanks a lot for driving him off.


No one told Brian to leave: Tom said he wanted to improve the quality of the images and feedback that are being posted here, and Brian got his nickers in the bunch and walked out. Sorry, but I think your butt hurt is directed at the wrong person. Did Brian quit because he neither wanted to receive, or give, honest critique?...



Oct 26, 2013 at 07:40 AM
e6filmuser
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · We can do better.


e6filmuser wrote:
I just want to say that, inspired by this discussion, this morning I made a big step forward in my control of flash lighting.

I was calibrating a new lens combination against my legacy flash for potential field use. I was surprised by how contrasty the images were, with the highlights burned out. This was with a diffuser on, which gives good results for insects in habitat. The subject was a rather pale flower but that was no excuse.

Did I need a second gun to give more even cover. Alternatively, should I go down the track of a soft box?

To cut
...Show more

I now have a version which can be held, currently with rubber bands, on the front of the flash gun. In view of the season, there is a sparsity of worthwhile subjects but I tried it on a static subject:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1249403/0#11903561

This gives a considerable increase in flexibility in lighting an outdoor macro subject. (See other images in the same topic).

NB This was shot with my Kiron 105mm, not with the lens combination refered to in the quoted text.

Harold



Nov 02, 2013 at 08:42 AM
 

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LeifG
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · We can do better.


Dalantech wrote:
When I first started posting here I was EXTREMELY intimidated -felt my images weren't even close to "good enough" but needed advice. I think if someone really wants to learn they'll post their photos anyway -as long as we're not being cruel in our feedback.


One of my first posts in this forum provoked you to launch a very vicious personal attack against me. You told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that I must be a bad photographer, and to post my images to prove otherwise. When I did post an image, you were quite vicious in your put downs. I was left hurt, and shocked. Even though this was several years ago, I still feel uncomfortable in this forum, and I would never consider participating as you were a complete bastard to me.

I am always astonished at how vicious some people can be behind the anonymity of the internet.



Nov 14, 2013 at 08:41 PM
michael kilner
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · We can do better.


LeifG wrote:
One of my first posts in this forum provoked you to launch a very vicious personal attack against me. You told me I didn't know what I was talking about, that I must be a bad photographer, and to post my images to prove otherwise. When I did post an image, you were quite vicious in your put downs. I was left hurt, and shocked. Even though this was several years ago, I still feel uncomfortable in this forum, and I would never consider participating as you were a complete bastard to me.

I am always astonished at how vicious
...Show more


Know where youre coming from,just looked at your site,some excellent work there



Nov 16, 2013 at 02:14 PM
coder
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · We can do better.


LeifG wrote:
<snip>....
I still feel uncomfortable in this forum, and I would never consider participating ...</snip>


Don't let one incident make you feel that way or prevent you from posting if you want to. This forum could use new contributors.



Nov 17, 2013 at 03:08 PM
TucsonTom
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · We can do better.


I have just finished working my way through this thread, and have found it interesting and surprising. I am a beginner, and a lurker -- so getting technical issues sorted out is keeping me busy right now -- so I for one enjoy the "show me your setup" thread as a source of ideas and examples. A picture is worth a thousand words.

One thing this thread has been about (at least what I think Tom was aiming at), is making the transition from focusing on technical competence and quality to artistic excellence and quality. This lies down the road a ways for me, but it is good to bear in mind even in early stages.

It has been surprising (but maybe not so), to see peoples feelings rise to such high levels. I have had my feelings hurt on forums, and I am still learning to have a thick skin. To those who have told their stories about having feelings hurt, all I can say is to please stay around and somehow put it behind you. There is absolutely a risk taken in posting publicly. For me, what is learned outweighs the sometimes negative experiences that pop up. I do think that anyone posting an image is implicitly asking for, or certainly risking some negative feedback. I hope to produce some images that people can comment on and teach me a few things. I have learned some great lessons by running my mouth on a public forum -- some unexpected lessons even. All of this accelerates learning, even if it is painful at times. (Didn't Lincoln say he got some of his best advice from his harshest critics or something like that?)



Nov 22, 2013 at 02:20 AM
OldListener
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · We can do better.


John Koerner wrote:



In fact, here are a series of natural light photos I took of various crab spiders. About half were taken outdoors, about half were taken indoors, and I guarantee not a single person here can distinguish the difference

Further, ALL are stacks (albeit minimal stacks), and about half were taken with the MPE-65mm lens, the other half were taken with the 180mm macro, and not a single image required the use of flash. I would consider these "artistic" shots even though they're stacked. IMO, there are very few shooters whose use of flash looks natural. I have seen a
...Show more

Jack, I really enjoyed seeing these wonderful images. Most of the species were new to me. Macro photography offers an opportunity to see things you will never see with your unaided eyes. The sense of discovery in viewing other people's pictures is a pleasure and making one's own discoveries in your images is even better.

Bill




Nov 22, 2013 at 06:40 PM
scubacrazy
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · We can do better.


So why not have a sub forum for beginners?

When starting out just getting the lighting , exposure and composition right is a milestone.

The attitude of many ( Not all ) on here strikes me as "Holier than thou" at best, and downright condescending and patronising in the main.
Anyone thinking of starting out by posting early attempts on this forum would be put off by this.
Some people, myself included, would prefer a basic helpful critique on technique etc which may not include artistic merit.
Get the basics right first, then the arty bit can develop.
Have a beginners sub-forum where it is made clear that critique ( and yes, I include harsh critique where appropriate ) WILL be given, as that is the purpose of the beginners forum.
Eventually people may progress in talent to enable them to post in this forum.



Nov 30, 2013 at 12:17 AM
kwoodard
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · We can do better.




scubacrazy wrote:
So why not have a sub forum for beginners?

When starting out just getting the lighting , exposure and composition right is a milestone.

The attitude of many ( Not all ) on here strikes me as "Holier than thou" at best, and downright condescending and patronising in the main.
Anyone thinking of starting out by posting early attempts on this forum would be put off by this.
Some people, myself included, would prefer a basic helpful critique on technique etc which may not include artistic merit.
Get the basics right first, then the arty bit can develop.
Have a
...Show more

I second this.



Nov 30, 2013 at 01:18 AM
e6filmuser
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · We can do better.


There are pros and cons for a beginners (sub)forum. Pros include there being no excuse for comments being made in ignorance of the author's beginner status. Cons include that many members may use that as a filter to ignore the posts.

Harold



Nov 30, 2013 at 07:16 AM
Statitica
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · We can do better.


Personally, I noticed a gradual change in this forum. Used to be that people would comment on threads other than their own. Now it seems their are one or two who venture to comment on the pictures others are sharing. This is going to kill the forum.

As far as artistic merit goes, I agree that macro photography falls under the umbrella of art, and can take on all kinds of forms. I agree that we, as a community, can encourage and guide each other. And we can do a better job of this.

However, there will always be people who do not want to have feedback, but to share their work, and their will always be those among us who do not feel qualified to offer feedback, and should not be told to "do better" in this. Sometimes the only thing a person wants to say is "nice shots" or "I don't like them" but cannot finger what it is they like or dislike. We need to have room for all sorts, or no one is going to comment and new members are going to feel excluded.

That's my 2c.



Dec 03, 2013 at 01:20 AM
LCPete
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · We can do better.


Just looked at the forum for the first time in ages
Feel guilty now for not contributing in my case though it's just that I've been photographing others things but am determined to do more macro next season
As for the forum I had noticed that the number of contributers has fallen and to be honest I did notice that a lot of the comments were of the "nice shot" type this forum definitely isn't what it was
Its a real shame that Brian has left he helped me a lot when I started in 2006
I'm at work at the moment but promise to post some shots in the week



Dec 17, 2013 at 04:15 AM
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