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Archive 2013 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?

  
 
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


sflxn wrote:
With numbers like these, you gotta wonder how much money Olympus, Panasonic, and Fuji are losing in the US since nearly all their sales comes from mirrorless.


I suspect lumping all non-mirror based cameras in the same category (mirrorless) and not considering the other vast differences between all the models is bound to be problematic. There are so many other features/ variables that are more important than simply the lack of a mirror. For instance, a Fuji X-Pro1 vs a Nikon V1 vs Sony RX1. Non of these really compete against the other. From a marketing point of view, it would be a huge mistake for a manufacturer to simply tag them all as "mirrorless" since the other differences - finder type, sensor size, AF type and so on - are much greater differentiators from the consumers standpoint. I'm not sure Nikon "get's it" by their reaction to poor Nikon 1 sales.



Aug 10, 2013 at 09:12 AM
millsart
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I suspect lumping all non-mirror based cameras in the same category (mirrorless) and not considering the other vast differences between all the models is bound to be problematic. There are so many other features/ variables that are more important than simply the lack of a mirror. For instance, a Fuji X-Pro1 vs a Nikon V1 vs Sony RX1. Non of these really compete against the other. From a marketing point of view, it would be a huge mistake for a manufacturer to simply tag them all as "mirrorless" since the other differences - finder type, sensor size, AF type
...Show more


I think the V1 program must have been run by quite a number of managers,so who clearly "get it" and others who don't.

For example, someone there knew that what the smaller needed was a fast lens, both for light gathering and also for more DoF control, so they came out with the 32mm f1.2, and they didn't just half-ass it either, they gave it a proper silent wave motor (SWM) and Nano Crystal Coating just like the high end G offerings.

At the same time, someone there though the camera doesn't need exposure bracketing. It can shoot at 60 FPS and bracketing would be awesome as you could stack stuff handheld so easily at that type of frame rate, but nope, doesn't have it.


Or take the FT-1 adapter. Someone had the brilliant concept that being able to use F mount glass with a 2.7x crop would be pretty cool, and indeed it is. Even make them AF and still use the lens VR system.

However, someone else must of though that, nope, we don't need to allow AF-C with the adapter. Who cares if the V1 has some of the best tracking AF of any camera on the market, don't need it...

Finally after a year and a half they gave a firmware and enabled AF-C with the adapter and it works quite well. Awesome turning a 200mm f2.8 into a 540mm equiv with F2.8 light gathering and VR.


The camera is a mix of some simply brilliant features like phase detect AF, an electronic shutter for 1/16,000th max shutter speed and 60 fps burst shooting, a 1 gig image buffer etc, but then also some idiotic "features" like the lack of bracketing.

The same person (surely a photographer) who knew an ultra fast max shutter would pair great with a f1.2 lens simply can't be someone who didn't see the value of AEB



Aug 10, 2013 at 11:12 AM
lukeb
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


FlyPenFly wrote:
I wonder who will be left in five years.


+1



Aug 10, 2013 at 11:52 AM
ytwong
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


Mirrorless is actually doing quite well in Asia. It's rather difficult to get a mirrorless here at the low price in the US.

Panasonic GF series and Olympus EPL, and Sony NEX are very popular among female, many of them not keen photography enthusatic about, they just want better pictures without the bulk of big cameras. My sister is one of them, she hardly use her mirrorless when she is not traveling.

The problem for this market is it's difficult to sell them another mirrorless and lens. Any mirrorless in the market, even the older generations, are very capable for ordinary use like facebook, viewing on monitor, on tablets, and makring smallish prints to A4 photo books.

The Nikon 1 should have a better/faster kit lens. It sensor size paired with a slow lens means it doesn't have much advantage over premium compacts like XZ-2. Most casual shooter only buy a kit lens.

When Nikon V1 series (v2 is too big) reach Sony RX-100 in IQ, I'd be very interested to get one. (but not at a high price).



Aug 10, 2013 at 09:03 PM
mightaswell
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


I bought my wife a J1 w/ 18.5-f1.8; specifically for the ridiculous AF, burst, and lack of shutter lag.

On my last long weekend, I found myself preferring the J1 over my 600D with Tamron 17-50. Quiet, fast, great results nearly always. Fantastic little camera.

The 18.5 is sharp as hell too.



Aug 11, 2013 at 01:12 AM
philip_pj
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


If Nikon is unhappy maybe they misread what users want from a small camera. It's ludicrous to lump anything that lacks a mirror together, for example ALL Sony cameras made will soon be mirrorless, even DSLRs.

'In short what they say is the mirrorless market isn’t growing anymore.'

..which is unhelpful considering the diversity out there. Bad luck Nikon, try harder, take some reality lessons - if interested that is.

Informative graph at the Sony rumour site, shows a lot of volatility in the DSLR segment over the last 18 months but a quite steady sales base for 'mirrorless', however they defined that segment. DSLRs could easily drop quite considerably when greater maturity arrives in 'small advanced cameras', which may take two years or so.

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/nikon-reports-a-financial-loss-says-mirrorless-doesnt-sell-well/




Aug 11, 2013 at 01:38 AM
ryan00013
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


Keith B. wrote:
there are NO professional mirrorless cameras yet--too many limitations: some have excellent image quality, but the handling/ergos/interfaces are amateur at best, pathetic at worst. Mirrorless could be good, but it'll have to work as well as a D800 or 5D3.


If we can define a pro camera as "a camera that provides image quality and performance suitable for the use of professional photographers," then a lot of people might argue with that statement.

There are a number of pro photographers that are using the Fuji X-system (Zack Arias, David Hobby, Luiz Braga, Dave Kai Piper, etc.). I am sure there are some using the NEX system too, but Sony doesn't have a cool interactive map that shows which pros are using their systems like Fuji does.

http://fujifilm-x.com/photographers/en/index.html

I've also recently started using the Fuji X-Pro 1 for my professional work. It's even got Pro in the name! (awful joke, I know).



Aug 11, 2013 at 02:29 AM
lsquare
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


millsart wrote:
Isn't the 1 system one of the top selling in the Asian market though ?

Its of course not a huge seller in the US, at least until it dropped to current blowout pricing, but just try to find a 32mm f1.2 in stock anywhere and it shows that there is some demand for the system.

heck, my $249 camera purchase has turned into $1300 spend on lens in the past 2 weeks. If Nikon keeps rolling out some ultra fast glass at reasonable prices, they could have a pretty good thing on their hands from all the people who have been
...Show more

I don't understand why Nikon isn't using the RX100 sensor in its camera. It's clearly superior to the 1" sensors that they're using.

I also don't see Nikon going all out with their CX lineup. Nikon is afraid that the their 1 system may cannibal their cheaper DSLRs.



Aug 11, 2013 at 02:39 AM
sflxn
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


I worry about Nikon. Outside of DSLRs, they have been failing at everything else. P&S, mirrorless, semiconductor steppers. There is something very wrong at Nikon. They can't seem to take real risk. They are stagnant and conservative. The RX1 is a camera that Nikon and Canon should have produced first. By most measure of media coverage, Nikon's Coolpix A has been thrashed by the near twin Ricoh GR.

I used to think Nikon and Canon would eventually own mirrorless, but I now think they may be the first to withdraw. Olympus and Panasonic will be next. Fuji could sustain the losses if they're run by idiot managers who accept losses. Who knows whether Sony is profitable with NEX or not. As a NEX owner, I hope it is at least breaking even for them.

We will know the temperature of the market much better this fall since nearly every mirrorless players have major launches in progress or slated. Sony will likely be a big winner this Fall. Maybe the excitement will lift all boats... or suck the air out of everyone else's release.



Aug 11, 2013 at 03:40 AM
rattymouse
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


sflxn wrote:
I worry about Nikon. Outside of DSLRs, they have been failing at everything else. P&S, mirrorless, semiconductor steppers. There is something very wrong at Nikon. They can't seem to take real risk. They are stagnant and conservative. The RX1 is a camera that Nikon and Canon should have produced first. By most measure of media coverage, Nikon's Coolpix A has been thrashed by the near twin Ricoh GR.

I used to think Nikon and Canon would eventually own mirrorless, but I now think they may be the first to withdraw. Olympus and Panasonic will be next. Fuji could sustain the losses
...Show more

I dont think the Nikon A has been trashed at all. Compared to the Ricoh GR yes but thrashed? Hardly. Unlike the mirrorless group (Olympus, Sony, Fujifilm and Panasonic) Nikon makes money for the most part. Fujifilm has had huge losses with their camera division going on over 5 years. Even the full rollout of the X System did nothing to change that from losses to profits. Olympus and Panasonic are in serious, serious financial trouble.

I would not worry about Nikon. A LOT of other camera companies will fail, completely, before they do.




Aug 11, 2013 at 03:50 AM
ytwong
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


lsquare wrote:
I don't understand why Nikon isn't using the RX100 sensor in its camera. It's clearly superior to the 1" sensors that they're using.

I also don't see Nikon going all out with their CX lineup. Nikon is afraid that the their 1 system may cannibal their cheaper DSLRs.


Maybe the Sony sensor does not provide the speed that Nikon wants. All Nikon 1 has high fps for both still and movie.

The sensor of RX100 does not have PDAF.






Aug 11, 2013 at 03:54 AM
Dudewithoutape
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


MarcG19 wrote:
IMO, Canon is not "conservative", it's "last in and first out", at least in the US. That being said, the rumors are that it'll put out APS-C mirrorless in the next year, which I think makes sense as a replacement for the low-end series (less parts, more profit margin).


Isn't the EOS-M already an APS-C mirrorless? Or do you mean a new one? From the current outlook, many believe Canon is pulling out of the mirrorless cam market, at least in the US.



Aug 11, 2013 at 03:54 AM
wiseguy010
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


rattymouse wrote:
None of the mirrorless players are profitable with their camera divisions. Olympus is losing their shirt, as is Panasonic. Sony *might* be making money, but barely if true. Fujifilm continues to lose money with their digital camera division year after year.

Canon and Nikon are the only solid, reliable companies that consistently (not always) earn money selling cameras.



And that's exactly the reason why I think that we shouldn't dump our DSLR's too fast. Tomorrow we buy a mirrorless camera with lenses and other attributes and the day after the system might not exist anymore.

The only drawback with DSLR compared to NEX/m43 is the little more size and weight. For the rest I only see advantages for the DSLR. IMO size and weight were not real problems apart from the last 2 years. Apparantly the mindset towards camera's has changed lately.

Edited on Aug 11, 2013 at 05:13 AM · View previous versions



Aug 11, 2013 at 05:05 AM
wiseguy010
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


sflxn wrote:
Sony will likely be a big winner this Fall.


That remains to be seen. The new full frame NEX with an expected retail price of $3000 will not sell like hotdogs I think.



Aug 11, 2013 at 05:10 AM
rattymouse
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


wiseguy010 wrote:
And that's exactly the reason why I think that we shouldn't dump our DSLR's too fast. Tomorrow we buy a mirrorless camera with lenses and other attributes and the day after the system might not exist anymore.

The only drawback with DSLR compared to NEX/m43 is the little more size and weight. For the rest I only see advantages for the DSLR. IMO size and weight were not real problems apart from the last 2 years. Apparantly the mindset towards camera's has changed lately.


EXACTLY! I have been shooting for 20 plus years and I continue to be amazed at how many people whine and cry about carrying cameras and lenses. Where did all this weakness come from? Has everyone gone soft? I dont get it. At all.





Aug 11, 2013 at 05:19 AM
lsquare
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


ytwong wrote:
Maybe the Sony sensor does not provide the speed that Nikon wants. All Nikon 1 has high fps for both still and movie.

The sensor of RX100 does not have PDAF.



That's a good point, but that doesn't mean the RX100's sensor can't be modified to implement PDAF.

Overall, I've been very disappointed with Nikon's 1 series as well as Canon's EOS M. It just can't compare to micro-43 at the moment.



Aug 11, 2013 at 05:30 AM
sflxn
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


wiseguy010 wrote:
That remains to be seen. The new full frame NEX with an expected retail price of $3000 will not sell like hotdogs I think.


FF NEX will get all the press, but NEX-7 upgrade will be the big sales winner. The NEX-7 is still the top of the mirrorless heap, and many have waited 2 years for the update.



Aug 11, 2013 at 05:41 AM
alwang
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


rattymouse wrote:
EXACTLY! I have been shooting for 20 plus years and I continue to be amazed at how many people whine and cry about carrying cameras and lenses. Where did all this weakness come from? Has everyone gone soft? I dont get it. At all.


Don't you shoot mostly film? I'd be happy with the size of most film 35mm cameras too. The problem is most digital 35mm cameras are much larger.



Aug 11, 2013 at 07:57 AM
rattymouse
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


alwang wrote:
Don't you shoot mostly film? I'd be happy with the size of most film 35mm cameras too. The problem is most digital 35mm cameras are much larger.


For the last year I have shot mostly film. Half the year medium format, and now I'm more into 35mm. Still when shooting digital i used to carry around a Canon DSLR and 20mm, 35mm, 50mm, 85mm, and 100mm lenses in my pack. All over Asia. A good comfortable bag made it VERY easy to carry such weight and I did so without any hesitation.



Aug 11, 2013 at 08:17 AM
sebboh
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Nikon 1-series slowdown and downturn of mirrorless cameras?


rattymouse wrote:
EXACTLY! I have been shooting for 20 plus years and I continue to be amazed at how many people whine and cry about carrying cameras and lenses. Where did all this weakness come from? Has everyone gone soft? I dont get it. At all.


really? did you guys miss the revolution that was the original OM-1? i was complaining about the size of dslrs since long before mirrorless existed and many others were too. i certainly remembering hearing lots of complaints about why canon and nikon can't make a dslr like the fm2.

i completely abandoned slrs for a p&s for a long time because the convenience was so much better. the only reason i took them up again was to shoot birds. now i have a p&s with image quality that matches or beats the image quality of the best dslrs and it's great.




Aug 11, 2013 at 09:59 AM
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