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Archive 2013 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?
  
 
mudlake
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


I have a Canon 6D. I just purchased the ef 70-200/f4 IS and am thinking about getting the Canon 1.4x converter to use with it. But I just had the thought that for approximately the same price ($450-499) I could buy a brand new Rebel T3i and get a 1.6x factor to use with the lens. Any thoughts on this? I know the converter would be easier to use than switching cameras, but I'm intrigued which option would be better. Thanks for any insight.

Edited on Jul 16, 2013 at 07:35 PM · View previous versions



Jul 16, 2013 at 04:17 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


As someone that just moved from a 60D to a 6D, I'd have to say that the 1.4x III would be more useful, unless you actually need a second camera.

It's not that the crop body isn't useful; a 7D complements the 6D quite nicely by adding the extra reach, faster framerate, and much more action-oriented autofocus system.

But all Canon crop cameras you can buy today suffer from the same limited dynamic range and excessive noise, something you're probably not going to want to deal with coming from the 6D, which is the complete opposite.

In that vein, the 1.4x III will be an effective way to increase focal length and likely provide better image quality on the 6D than slapping a T3i to the back of your 70-200/4 would, I think.



Jul 16, 2013 at 04:32 PM
markshelby
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


If I'm not mistaken the depth of focus and angle of view won't be too far off from each other.

The converter will cost some in terms of aperture--a stop I think? But the 6D would likely more than make up for that difference in terms of noise performance and autofocus performance.

The teleconverter is smaller and lighter than a second body, but OTOH you have the ability to use both bodies at the same time.

Subjectively, I tend to not enjoy moving downwards, body-wise--meaning that I personally would prefer to slap a converter on my 6D than to have to use a Rebel series body part of the time.



Jul 16, 2013 at 06:16 PM
lite25e
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


I definitely chose the crop sensor camera option.

I had a 1D4, and I just upgraded to the 1DX. The 1DX is great, but I admit that I miss the extra reach of the 1D4. While I was waiting for the 1DX to arrive, I shot for an entire weekend with my backup T3i, that I had purchased before doing a wedding last year and then never used, and I was sufficiently impressed with the image quality that I just throw it in my bag as a teleconverter now.

Without a lens, the T3i is very small, and it gives me the extra reach when I need it. Of course, it doesn't help with low light or fast autofocusing, but I've never been impressed with the image quality of the teleconverters with my lens (70-200is f.28 mark II; 135mmL; 100-40mL). Overall, you're compromising significantly either way.



Jul 16, 2013 at 06:48 PM
Ian.Dobinson
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


Personally crop over FF and TC. ( even then the combo is 'shorter' )

But I guess if your using fast (ie f4 and faster) then ff and T C is feasable but if your using 5.6 long lenses then even if the ff is better than the crop for iq noise you will be at f8 which even with the fw for the 5D3 you loose a lot of AF (middle point only?)

Also having a 2nd body that gives you options is no bad thing



Jul 16, 2013 at 08:01 PM
mudlake
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


Thanks for the replies. A perfect split of opinion! One advantage I see with the crop camera is I wouldn't lose a stop of light from the lens like I would with the converter. This decision would be easier if the converter didn't cost so much.

Thanks again for your opinions.



Jul 17, 2013 at 07:57 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


You could pick up a relatively inexpensive Kenko Teleplus Pro 300 DG 1.4x TC for far less than the 1.4x III (I have both). It would work just fine on your 70-200/4L IS.

OTOH, a second camera is a real force multiplier.



Jul 17, 2013 at 08:07 PM
unclechuck
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


DPR's RAW comparison widgets show the IQ of the T2i, T3i, T4i, 60D and 7D are very close.

Of course the 60D and 7D have considerably more features, including AF.

For illustration purposes here's a T2i shot w Canon 70-300 L + 1.4 Kenko DGX

Image is RAW to JPG from LR with no adjustments except sizing for posting.

I'm waiting on the 7D II and then will choose between it and 6D






Edited on Jul 17, 2013 at 08:21 PM · View previous versions



Jul 17, 2013 at 08:17 PM
WAYCOOL
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


Eos-M + adapter ~ $400 you get a crop sensor to use that 70-200 with, a second pocketable camera and a razor sharp 22mm. Just got the M because of the fire sale and am digging this little sucker much more than I thought I would


Jul 17, 2013 at 08:19 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


You could also use the earlier model 1.4X II for just over $200.

I am inclined toward the APS-C body for a the extra stop of light, plus second body benefits.



Jul 17, 2013 at 08:37 PM
 

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Scott Stoness
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


Similar question at http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1227498

I made a post there that is largely copied and edited here...

I would add to this for this post - for uwa, wide and medium lengths its hard to make the argument for 1.6x, except price.Full frame is wider, the resolution is higher, there are not many really high iq crop only lens, the low noise performance is better,and a 15mm lens is a 15mm lens. Aside form price the only argument is reach. And with respect to reach....


My view is that the most effective way to get reach is

first with a longer lens - an extra 100mm at similar fstop is better than any other alternative

then you are kind of have to struggle between cropper vs 1.4x because
- the 1.6 x cropper will get you less than 1/2 the 60% cropping gain resolution as compred to a full frame. It will be better than cropping but not as good as adding glass but will keep the fstop same. [compare a 70-200 on full frame for resolution vs crop to confirm this at photozone.de center resolution drops from 3600 to 2400 creating very little actual gain with the cropper]
- the 1.4x will lose an fstop

More pixels is better for cropping but not dramatically so because the lens resolution will limit the usability [this is the same reason you don't actually get an extra 60% resolution with a cropper - the lens is the limiting factor] and there are diminishing returns to denser pixels. So more pixel density last.


So first buy the longest lens you can buy. if the light is good, use the 1.4x, but if the light is bad use the cropper (7d). And all else being equal more pixels is better, but not not that dramtically.

[In retropsect I should say - all of the above assumes you have a good 1.4x. I am used to the 1.4xiii on v2 lens. If you have a poorer 1.4x/lens, you might want to stick with cropped camera]

Edited on Jul 18, 2013 at 01:11 PM · View previous versions



Jul 17, 2013 at 08:49 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


For the guys suggesting a second body for the extra stop of light- does the loss of half of the total light (sensor with half the total area) along with significantly lower dynamic range and much higher noise profile compared to a current Canon full-frame camera not deter you at all?

I'd be fine with a 70D if the sensor is the improvement that we're hoping it is, or any of the other crop cameras (an EOS-M2 or Rebel SL2 is especially interesting), but I'd personally rather give up that stop of light and get an FF sensor with a TC rather than have to shoot around the noise from a crop.



Jul 17, 2013 at 08:51 PM
John_T
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


Scott pretty much sums it up. Having both options, I find, one way or the other, that you get past the FL limitation just to run straight into the next limitation which becomes more of a struggle in PP to dig out your image. The breakthrough is partial, and depending on light and lens, your degree of satisfaction may be limited. With FF+TC you will likely have less background separation due to deeper DOF and with crop you are going to run into noise very quickly.

Of course the main question is what do you want to do with the image. If it is just for yourself, it is an interesting experiment and from time to time, between disappointments, you will get something really good. If it is for a specific use, don't count on consistency, especially if your light is less than good.

That all said, I prefer, for example, the 5D3+1.4TCIII+100-400L (560mm) to the 7D+100-400L ("640mm"), mainly because of body performance and noise headroom.






  Canon EOS 5D Mark III    EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM +1.4x III lens    560mm    f/8.0    1/800s    1250 ISO    +0.7 EV  






  Canon EOS 7D    EF100-400mm f/4.5-5.6L IS USM lens    400mm    f/6.3    1/1000s    250 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jul 17, 2013 at 11:13 PM
johnctharp
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


John_T, thanks for sharing those shots- you just sold me on waiting for the 70D/7D II versus snagging a fire-sale 7D .

The vertical color noise banding in the eagle shot is pretty telling. I don't see any noise in the sky, so I assume that the shot has been appropriately processed for the 7D's sensor, but it looks like the detail on the eagle was difficult to recover. If I can see it in a web-export, well... I wouldn't want to put that on a wall .



Jul 17, 2013 at 11:21 PM
John_T
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


That's the point with the 7D, noise and shadow noise already at ISO 250, while the raven, with the same potential in similar light, was no problem on the 5D3+1.4TCIII at ISO 1250. That Red Kite shot was such an opportunity, he came in low and close, and I only had the 7D at hand, wishing to hell it had been the 5D3+1.4TCIII, would have been a totally different shot.

Often I think we sit around calculating how we can do this or that without figuring in all the rest that goes into a shot, AF, ISO, aperture, achievable shutter speed and so forth. So here I am with a 560mm and 640mm FOV, but it is still faking it some $10k short of the real thing.

...I might add that subtle things like the TC IIIs over others do make a difference.



Jul 17, 2013 at 11:43 PM
mitesh
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


I'm not so sure that Red Kite photo is the best example to use because it has hard shadows under the wings and it appears to have been underexposed. I have been using a 7D for about a year now for birds, as well as a 5D3. While 5D3 is definitely superior in terms of high ISO performance, the 7D can do well too. I'm sure everyone has seen examples, but here are a couple more FWIW... just wouldn't want anyone to dismiss the 7D out of hand.




  Canon EOS 7D    EF200-400mm f/4L IS USM lens    400mm    f/5.6    1/800s    3200 ISO    0.0 EV  






  Canon EOS 7D    EF200-400mm f/4L IS USM lens    560mm    f/8.0    1/1600s    3200 ISO    0.0 EV  




Jul 18, 2013 at 12:20 AM
thedutt
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


With 70-200, you will end up with a 1.4x sooner or later for wildlife.
If traveling to exotic once in a lifetime places, you will end up with a backup soon or later.

Which one first? Your call Backup is irrelevant until you *really* need it.

Btw, t2i is awesome as well and a bit cheaper. Kenko 1.4x DG Pro is a good cheaper alternative.



Jul 18, 2013 at 12:29 AM
Scott Stoness
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


I think you are overstating the shortfalls of 7d. Here is a 7d shot in pretty low light with lots of magnification and cropping (7d with 600v2 1.4xiii at iso 1000). It gets good detail and does a good job up to iso 1250 or so. But the light must be right and the processing must be good.

That said, the 5diii is way better for iso and focuss




  Canon EOS 7D    EF600mm f/4L IS II USM +1.4x lens    840mm    f/5.6    1/1250s    1000 ISO    0.0 EV  



Edited on Jul 18, 2013 at 12:51 AM · View previous versions



Jul 18, 2013 at 12:36 AM
mitesh
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


^^^ Agreed


Jul 18, 2013 at 12:42 AM
robbymack
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Buy a 1.4x teleconverter or a crop sensor camera?


Sort of depends what you want to do. If you chose the TC save some $ and buy the 1.4ii as the iii gives you no substantial advantage as it was optimized for the mark II lenses. Plus the color of the tc iii is different than you 70-200f4IS and looks a little silly Imho. I personally I'm happy to simply crop a FF image by 50% than use any TC or aps c sensor. But if you need to crop after the TC then ideally you'd get longer glass (which gets expensive quickly) so the TC is a good option.


Jul 18, 2013 at 12:45 AM
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