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Archive 2013 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)

  
 
Bsmooth
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


I am trying to shoot swallows, about an inch or two above the grass. Presently I am using a 100-400 with a 1DMkII, and shutter speeds around 1/1250 to 1/1600, and not really getting lots of keepers.
I was thinking of getting a 400mm 5.6 or maybe a 300mmF4IS.
I do use only a center focus spot,although I have tried an expanded area and that seemed to make things worse.
So which lens do you think would help the most with the swallows and just birds in flight in general ?
I am also handholding and not using a tripod or gimbal mount.



Jul 16, 2013 at 08:52 AM
lowa2
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


The 400/5.6 is known for it's AF speed and is very sharp!


Jul 16, 2013 at 08:59 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Do you have the IS turned off?


Jul 16, 2013 at 09:02 AM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


On the 100-400 I have tried IS both on and off, and had better luck with it on.


Jul 16, 2013 at 09:04 AM
mitesh
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Your technique and other considerations could play as much or an even bigger role in determining success than the AF speed of the lens. First, what AF and shot settings are you using? AF servo and high speed burst mode are recommended. I would also look at how strong your AF lock was before you actuated the shutter. Did you acquire and hold AF lock before firing to give the camera's Servo algorithm enough time to "predict" subject movement? Take a look at your shot sequences and examine if there are some frames in a sequence that are in focus and others out of focus. Remember that there is a shutter blackout when you fire, and in burst mode, that can affect AF tracking.

If you haven't already, examine your shots to see if there is a consistent pattern in the misses. For example, is the lens locking onto something in the background rather than the bird? This could indicate that there is not sufficient contrast between the two, that your subject is perhaps too small in the frame, or that you might benefit from working with the focus limiter on your lens, etc. You mention that the birds are just an inch or two above the grass- this could possibly cause issues because the lens might lock onto a patch of grass if that's more contrasty than the subject (and it is probably a larger target).

These are just a few things that I'd look at before thinking about switching lenses. There are a lot of photographers who use that same lens successfully with non 1-series bodies for challenging IF situations, so I'd be trying to isolate the other factors first.

Hope this gets you pointed in the right direction, and I'm sure you'll get more tips from others soon.



Jul 16, 2013 at 09:11 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


OK. I generally have IS turned off for BIF, especially swallows and other small, fast movers, as they don't follow a predictable path. Mode 2 IS works for horizontal or vertical panning motions, but not when there is a significant component of both directions at the same time. Of course, the closer you get to the birds, the more panning you have to do.


Jul 16, 2013 at 09:15 AM
3iron
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


You have some good advice, I will throw in, the 400 5.6 is day and night better than the 100-400 both in IQ and focus lock. The other problem is the bird you are trying to shoot. They just do not sit still.
Here's a suggestion: Try to locate a spot where they are consistently flying and manually focus on that spot. Then just keep shooting. You will get some, probably not many. That bird is difficult to catch even with the best set up so don't be upset if you keeper rate is low.
Good luck and best wishes.



Jul 16, 2013 at 09:20 AM
dgdg
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Lots of good advice here. Those blades of grass may be confusing your autofocus which probably would be no better with other lenses as suggested already. have you tried other subjects and have better results?


Jul 16, 2013 at 10:25 AM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Generally with these fast movers, theres little time to check focus lock, but I do listen for it.
I'm sure technique plays a very large role as well as my shutter speeds. Originally I tied at 1/1000 thinking that would be enough. Well last weekend I shot a group of images at 1/1250, and then again at 1/1600. i got maybe 3 out of 100 for 1/1250,and about 6 at 1/1600, .
I am also shooting 1 image at a time, and I'm sure your saying well thats why ! But I have done this quite a few times and generally I found by shooting bursts, all I got were groups of out of focus shots.



Jul 16, 2013 at 11:16 AM
Imagemaster
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Unless you have the sky as a background, you are probably running into two problems. First, I will bet that you are not able to keep the centre-point only focused on the bird at all times. Secondly, if you use expanded centre-points, the camera will focus on the grass or something else.

Check your images to see where the focus point actually was when you clicked the shutter.



Jul 16, 2013 at 11:16 AM
jimmy462
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Hi Bsmooth,

Sometimes solving a problem requires a bit of creative thinking, and looking at the problem from a different angle. (Something which should come as learned second nature to we photographers...defined here as, "folks who capture moments in time".) Case in point...

A few years back I decided to try my hand at some BIF work...I had gotten my hands on my first HSM focusing telephoto lens (Sigma 120-300mm EX DG non-OS) which I felt would be up to the task of responding quickly-enough to the focusing commands from my camera. At the time, that was a 30D, which I came to realize through experimentation was not up to the task of nailing focus where and when I wanted while using AI Servo mode. (Heck, I even went so far as to nailing the combo down on a tripod and asking it to track a person walking towards the camera with the subject firmly locked on the center-point focusing sensor and using all three auto focusing methods and the camera would still either miss or veer off focus at least 30% of the time! Ha!)

In the years since I've redone these experiments with my 5D Mark II and then 7D (supposedly as good as the APS-H 1D-series focusing, at the time) with a variety of both HSM and USM telephotos and finally came to a personal working conclusion that automatic electromechanical focusing—as designed and implemented by Canon (my limited test pool)—was a hopeful experience, at best.

The whole of the problem just wasn't with the birds moving around quickly, part of the problem was with the gear, and part of the problem was with the operator's ability (um, me) to respond adeptly enough to his subject's behavior. (BTW, and FWIW, while doing my own experiments trying to capture both Barn Swallows and Chimney Swifts in flight I came to my own conclusion that whatever energies were to be expended in investing in marksmanship skills, on my part, would not be rewarded in equal proportion with sufficient or quality results. )

It was at this point a voice from my past bounced around my head..."Kid, if you're working too hard, and you're working up a sweat, you're doing something wrong."

Well, I realized that there's nothing I can do to keep birds from being themselves...and, I realized that there's nothing I can do to soup-up my cameras...the only problems I could solve were those involving what I was doing. So, along the way I began to develop a sense of what it is I'd like to be able to do (and not do) along with taking a realistic look at what it is that I thought was possible to actually do. And, I concluded, that panning around frantically just trying to keep a flittering bird in the viewfinder and hoping that it lands on an AF point and that the camera and lens and everything else in the entire universe just so happens to work right for one infinitesimally brief and fleeting moment before I fall over because I've lost my center, was beyond the capabilities of both humans and their machines.

These days I watch my birds and their behaviors. I notice what the swallows and swifts are doing in flight, what they do when they're coming in for a landing, what they do before they take-off again. I try to be more predictive about what I'm seeing, what I'm noticing and what I'm learning. I ask myself questions like, "what is the best focal length to be using" and "best position to be in when the swallows come flying out of the garage?" "How can I best tell the story of that moment?" And then, having decided all of that, frame my shot, grab a best focus for the garage door where the action will be happening and then work on my sense of timing for that infinitesimally brief moment when they magically come zooming out.

My point here being...it's been important for me to both learn and know my gear and to get an understanding of what it can and cannot do for me. Sure, having HSM motors and capable AF are great, but they only take me part way down the road to getting the images I desire, the rest is on me.

Anyhoo, I hope this was helpful...good luck in your gear hunt!


Jimmy G




Jul 16, 2013 at 11:34 AM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


First of all thanks for taking the time to answer, and give me some new ideas. Jim I came to a very similar conclusion myself, after several attempts.
I have always tried to look at things from several viewpoints, or to try and look at things in a different persons shoes, great advice indeed !
I have said this before, just walk down a path and then when you think theres not much there, turn around and retrace the same path which you just walked upon, and look around, remember that light is now coming in from 180 degrees and it changes everything.
I have seen some great shots right here of swallows, and the shutter speeds were sometime over 1/2000. I just was not sure what iso I could safely use with my 1dMkII, without getting too much noise, but I'm still experimenting.
These little swallows are simply amazing flyers. I took some at ground level,and as I said there literally just inces off the ground. To say I have great respect for these birds is an understatement. I'd love to shoot images of eagles and falcons, but they are just not readily available to see. But these swallows, I know where they will be anytime.
As was said in Avatar(one of my alltime fav's) "good science is good observation" and I noticed something funny.
Whenever I walked around the swallows seemed to follow me. What I found was that as I walked I was stirring up the grass, and by doing that stirring up the bugs as well.
I watched other people from far away, and as they walked the birds followed them as well.There went my illusion that I was special !
I also found they chased feathers adrift on the wind. I would follow the feather with my lens, problembeing its near the ocean , so there are some rather hefty breezes blowing, needless to say that feather didn't hang around long.
Can you tell I love a challenge ?



Jul 16, 2013 at 12:00 PM
bhollis
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Bsmooth wrote:
Generally with these fast movers, theres little time to check focus lock, but I do listen for it.


Focus lock? This suggests you're shooting in one-shot rather than AI Servo. If so, you really need to switch to AI Servo to get in-focus shots of BIF.



Jul 16, 2013 at 12:09 PM
jimmy462
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Bsmooth wrote:
As was said in Avatar(one of my alltime fav's) "good science is good observation" and I noticed something funny.
Whenever I walked around the swallows seemed to follow me. What I found was that as I walked I was stirring up the grass, and by doing that stirring up the bugs as well.
I watched other people from far away, and as they walked the birds followed them as well.There went my illusion that I was special !
I also found they chased feathers adrift on the wind. I would follow the feather with my lens, problembeing its near
...Show more

Hi Bsmooth,

Great quote (what? screenwriters never say anything cool?!)

I agree about the swallows, amazing acrobats and ferocious insectivores (especially flying one's)! I've noticed their interest for dive bombing around our heads, as well, though in my situation this was at the work garage where we park a fleet of utility trucks...no grass, just a very large building (where they set up nesting in the rafters) and a large parking lot surrounding the place. My guess was that the mosquitoes and such were attracted to our body heat and breath and so they tended to hover nearby in hopes of catching a meal! The swallows clearly noticed this opportunity and made good practice of startling the unwary! I'm sure kicking up the grass just adds to the bounty for them!

Most of my experiments were nest shots (with and without young...nice having bucket trucks at one's disposal!) and with high acrobatics and with their arrivals and departures at the large overhead garage door openings. That I were still working there (retired now), and had them at my disposal, I think I would try for some dive bombing runs using a shorter focal length (oh say, normal to 100mm) and having manual focus set fairly close (forget AF) and trying to anticipate their close approaches (maybe with a spotter standing off a bit). I was fortunate in that I had late-afternoon mid-summer sun to play with (after-work hours, ) and preferred to position myself keeping that glorious light coming from over my shoulders or sides.

Anyhoo, it sounds like you've got an exciting pursuit and some great opportunities to go after it! Best of luck with that! Thanks for sharing your observations and experiences!


Jimmy G



Jul 16, 2013 at 12:45 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


bhollis wrote:
Focus lock? This suggests you're shooting in one-shot rather than AI Servo. If so, you really need to switch to AI Servo to get in-focus shots of BIF.


+1



Jul 16, 2013 at 01:12 PM
dgdg
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


jimmy462 wrote:
These days I watch my birds and their behaviors. I notice what the swallows and swifts are doing in flight, what they do when they're coming in for a landing, what they do before they take-off again. I try to be more predictive about what I'm seeing, what I'm noticing and what I'm learning.


I had a heck of a time last weekend photographing terns for the first time. They were fast, swooping in and out over a small section of water. They came in with the sun behind them so I couldn't track from afar either. Then, of course they are white, so unless I had my focus well preset, I couldn't even see them in the viewfinder. It was a new challenge, but still fun as I remind myself it is a hobby. Only way I could capture them was to wait for them to make a splash in the water which was consistently in the same area. I could predict that and get a good initial focus since they stopped moving for a bit and had good contrast with the blue water. Then as they flew off gaining speed, I could actually capture some nice images. I am sure this is obvious to experienced bif photographers, but it was fun learning it myself.



Jul 16, 2013 at 03:03 PM
Bsmooth
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


I'll check about the AI-Servo, thanks for the help.


Jul 17, 2013 at 08:50 AM
mark fadely
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


The 400 f5.6 is definitely the lens of choice for swallows. Surprisingly the nearly decade old 1D MKIIn is as capable of a body as anything out there today when shooting these little speed demons. I have a special secret swallow shooting habitat near me that I visit frequently. The tiny birds are a workout for the gear and the photographer. All the planets have to align for just an instant in order to capture that perfect image. It is really fun albeit frustrating to shoot swallows.

I use center focus point, ai-servo, and the focus limiter set to long range on the 400 5.6. I've had decent luck with the 1D MKII, 1D MKIIn, 1DIII, and 1DIV.

When you find an area with swallows spend time to learn their flight paths and habits. There is a lot of repeat action that helps you anticipate getting the shot.



Jul 18, 2013 at 09:58 AM
jcolwell
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


The 70-200/2.8L IS II on 1DIV works pretty well, too. Serious lookin' little bugger.







Jul 18, 2013 at 10:13 AM
OntheRez
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Which lens focuses fastest (for birding)


Bsmooth,

I had a swallow phase. (The only reason it was a phase is I moved beyond their range.) God are these fast little buggers. I spent hours chasing these guys and truly doubt I even had a 5% success rate. (Can't tell you how many green grass shots I got or just a tail feather or something.) At the time I found my 1DIIn with the 200mm f/2.8 to be about the best I could do. (The 300mm f/4.0 didn't seem to "click on" quite as fast. Still if you shoot enough - which does seem to be the secret with anything this small that moves that fast and changes direction so wildly - you'll get keepers.

This was one of my favorites from that era.

Robert





© rsorrels 2013


Right place, right time, right lucky.




Jul 18, 2013 at 10:35 AM
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