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Archive 2013 · The world's sharpest lenses

  
 
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · The world's sharpest lenses


http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/01/the-great-50mm-shootout

The article being referenced by red

I always forget the Zeiss Planar 50 1.4 is actually sharper than the Makro 50mm F2 past F2.



Jul 15, 2013 at 11:42 AM
rscheffler
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · The world's sharpest lenses


Typically the larger the format, the lower the lp/mm resolving power of the lens because the format itself required less enlargement. This somewhat changed with digital, hence the reason you see the digital optimized lenses for MF back systems such as Alpa and the like. Not saying the Mamiya 80/4 isn't a high resolving lens, just would be surprised if it exceeded many of the better lenses currently available for smaller formats. I think this is also where numbers in isolation don't directly relate to reality. Sharpness is greatly influenced by the entire system used to create the image.

This is the Rodenstock data sheet (pdf) for their analog lenses - for film - note that the MTF graphs top out at 20lp/mm, whereas for 35mm format lenses, Zeiss, Leica, etc., 20lp/mm is in the middle and 40 is typically what is analyzed to death for determining sharpness.

For comparison, here is the data sheet (pdf) for Rodenstock's digital lenses, where they measure 10, 20, 40 and 80! lp/mm. Basically you see performance similar to the best 35mm lenses because the MF digital backs are pretty much super-sized 35mm sensors with similar pixel density and pixel size to current 35mm FF sensors. This was previously not necessary with LF lenses because the film was simply much, much larger than 35mm. But now the digital backs cover a much smaller area than LF film did, therefore require much greater enlargement and much better lenses.



Jul 15, 2013 at 11:55 AM
Toothwalker
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · The world's sharpest lenses


FlyPenFly wrote:
http://www.lensrentals.com/blog/2012/01/the-great-50mm-shootout

The article being referenced by red

I always forget the Zeiss Planar 50 1.4 is actually sharper than the Makro 50mm F2 past F2.


There are two new kids on the block.



Jul 15, 2013 at 11:58 AM
naturephoto1
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · The world's sharpest lenses


rscheffler wrote:
Typically the larger the format, the lower the lp/mm resolving power of the lens because the format itself required less enlargement. This somewhat changed with digital, hence the reason you see the digital optimized lenses for MF back systems such as Alpa and the like. Not saying the Mamiya 80/4 isn't a high resolving lens, just would be surprised if it exceeded many of the better lenses currently available for smaller formats. I think this is also where numbers in isolation don't directly relate to reality. Sharpness is greatly influenced by the entire system used to create the image.

This is
...Show more

But the newer Rodenstock and Schneider digital lenses are optimized for close to wide open. Some of the best of the older LF and MF Apo (and Macro) lenses particularly in the 120mm, 150mm, and longer focal lengths should still perform relatively well on the MF digital backs and these lenses were optimized to be stopped down for f22 to f32 for greater DOF. The newer Rodenstock and Schneider WA digital lenses however do not need to be stopped down nearly as much as the longer lenses to maintain DOF



Jul 15, 2013 at 12:36 PM
Jonas B
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · The world's sharpest lenses


luminosity wrote:
What a dumb list-- nothing about medium and large format lenses. Every one of those lenses take a back seat to the 80/4 lens for the Mamiya 7.


Really? How do you measure that? Contrast at what resolution?
I don't know why so many have problems seeing the list for what it is.

EDIT: OK, I clicked the quote button and then had dinner before writing and posting.



Jul 15, 2013 at 12:46 PM
AhamB
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · The world's sharpest lenses


rscheffler wrote:
Typically the larger the format, the lower the lp/mm resolving power of the lens because the format itself required less enlargement.


I think there is a causal factor too, besides the lower resolution requirement? Bigger image circles require bigger lens elements that are thicker and have stronger aberrations, and grinding and polishing these elements with very low tolerances is much harder and more expensive than making e.g. a tiny phone camera lens with very low tolerances.



Jul 15, 2013 at 01:00 PM
Ed Brooks
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · The world's sharpest lenses


I recently made some photographs with the 70-200 ii f2.8 Canon. I was absolutely shocked to see how sharp this lens is wide open. It stands in a league of it's own. The only other lens I have with this degree of super sharpness is the 17mm TS.



Jul 15, 2013 at 01:17 PM
luminosity
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · The world's sharpest lenses


Jonas B wrote:
Really? How do you measure that? Contrast at what resolution?
I don't know why so many have problems seeing the list for what it is.

EDIT: OK, I clicked the quote button and then had dinner before writing and posting.


http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html



Jul 15, 2013 at 01:31 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · The world's sharpest lenses


If I were going on once in a lifetime trip to somewhere awesome like Mongolia or Madagascar and I could only take 1 50mm lens with me, I don't think I'd have a hard time choosing between a Zeiss 50mm or Canon 50mm even if the latter has better MTF numbers.

The same with 35mm, 100mm, and even UWA.



Jul 15, 2013 at 01:53 PM
Jonas B
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · The world's sharpest lenses


luminosity wrote:
http://www.hevanet.com/cperez/MF_testing.html


Thank you. From the list one can see the Mamiya lens you mention is a good MF lens. However, I don't see how the figures given in the table can be compared to MTF numbers measured using an optical bench.

Some differences:
* The MF lenses in the lens are tested at very short distances, the figures FOTO provides us with are at infinity
* The numbers from the table are given as l/mm while FOTO do it the modern way and measures contrast at a given resolution (20 cycles/mm which I guess is the same as 20 lp/mm or 40 l/mm)
* When eye-balling an image looking for resolution we always detect resolution at contrast ratios much lower than 50% (I mention 50% as that is what I'm used to when having compared MTF curves to my own results from shooting USAF charts), which of course is very much lower than 80 or 90% seen in many of the charts.

From all this, and possibly more, follows that the comparison between the table in your link and the FOTO MTF-charts is impossible, or invalid. Just as rscheffler (Ron?) I suspect the classic MF lenses have less resolution at a given contrast than lenses for 35mm SLR cameras (and so on, that's why the list is what it is - FOTS's judgement of their MTF-charts from testing FF lenses).



Jul 15, 2013 at 01:58 PM
redisburning
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · The world's sharpest lenses


FlyPenFly wrote:
If I were going on once in a lifetime trip to somewhere awesome like Mongolia or Madagascar and I could only take 1 50mm lens with me, I don't think I'd have a hard time choosing between a Zeiss 50mm or Canon 50mm even if the latter has better MTF numbers.

The same with 35mm, 100mm, and even UWA.


I would agree, even if we are limiting ourselves to "sharpness".

Apparent sharpness is what matters. If you have ever driven a motorcycle at 20 mph, you know it's often more exciting than 90 in a German sedan. That was the impetus for the v1 Summicron-R and the v3 Summicron M; less terminal resolution but higher contrast at relevant cycles.

The 50/2 MP might not reach the 1.4 planar, or the f2 ZM planar's terminal resolution numbers, but it's an absolute monster in the range where it counts. That's why I sold my DR cron and kept my 50/2 planar; yes the DR maintains contrast further up the cycle/mm count, but in scans and web sizes, the Planar waxed it. handily.



Jul 15, 2013 at 02:39 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · The world's sharpest lenses


I've seen the original data that underlies the Foto list, the raw transfer function data from the Zeiss K8 that later becomes the MTF charts.

The list stands for the lp/mm choice, but not for global contrast (veiling flare) or contrast at 80lp/mm.

But it IS just a list, and for a list based on actual facts you need some kind of baseline criteria. Foto's normal criteria was used, and they're usually quite reasonable criteria for normal photography. They might not be accurate if you're looking for maximum contrast at 80lp/mm or higher, where modern DSLR's are (5µm pixel = 100lp/mm).

40lp/mm is two pixels on most modern cameras (not smaller formats of course, the 16MP OM-D E5 is ~3.7µm and needs even higher lp/mm measurements to be relevant. 3.7µm is 135lp/mm, two-pixel width details are 67lp/mm).

Sharpest in line pairs per image height - which actually is a much better "photographic" criteria! - are still the medium/large format lenses. The Mamiya 7 80mm lens, the new 150AFD2.8, the Leica S-series and of course even the older large format lenses outresolve their smaller siblings by quite a noticeable margin when you look at the image, not the "per mm" criteria.



Jul 15, 2013 at 03:31 PM
Jonas B
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · The world's sharpest lenses


theSuede wrote:
(...)
Sharpest in line pairs per image height - which actually is a much better "photographic" criteria! - are still the medium/large format lenses. The Mamiya 7 80mm lens, the new 150AFD2.8, the Leica S-series and of course even the older large format lenses outresolve their smaller siblings by quite a noticeable margin when you look at the image, not the "per mm" criteria.


Yes, of course, or at least maybe. But then we are talking about systems rather than lenses, no?
I think that's why the list should be read for what it is, a list of the sharpest lenses available (if before 2011 and included in the bunch of lenses tested and meeting the editors criterias).

I say maybe as I don't really know how many lp/IH the Mamiya 80mm lens produces at 50% contrast together with what digital back. I have a feeling the difference between that unknown system isn't that big when compared to a FF 36MP sensor camera paired with a top notch lens.



Jul 15, 2013 at 03:53 PM
redisburning
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · The world's sharpest lenses


btw this Erwin Puts article regarding contrast levels at very high resolutions is most illuminating.

http://web.archive.org/web/20080217224731/http://www.imx.nl/photo/optics_2/reflections_on_current_opti.html



Jul 15, 2013 at 04:22 PM
philip_pj
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · The world's sharpest lenses


While obviously no slouches at making 'sharp' lenses, Zeiss have maintained that 'apparent sharpness' is a very important characteristic to consider. Not sure if Roger or anyone else has done something similar to his 50mm comparo, but I would be willing to wager the 100MP and perhaps the 135APO would not top their respective 'sharpness' lists...despite being sublime photographic lenses.

I am constantly surprised at my Contax 100/3.5 which is not in the same league as most topflight C/N lenses most likely, yet does a fabulous job. These 100mm CZ lenses have very similar MTF and distortion characters.

On the 50MP Zeiss report best infinity MTF at f5.6, at which point it has much higher 'detail' curves across much more of the frame than the 50P at f4 - Roger's test stops at f4. I find myself much more convinced by lenses with very flat curves - better object shaping, generally much lower distortion. red, Puts is always a good read at this business.



Jul 16, 2013 at 07:53 PM
Bifurcator
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · The world's sharpest lenses


Yeah, pretty interesting list:

Canon TS-E 24/3,5 L II
Carl Zeiss Distagon T* 18/3,5 ZF
Nikkor AF-S 14-24/2,8 G ED
Canon EF 100/2,8 L IS USM Macro
Nikkor Micro AF 200/4 D ED
Sigma 70/2,8 EX DG Macro
Voigtländer APO Lanthar 90/2,8
Nikkor AF-S VR 400/2,8 G ED
Canon EF 200/2,0 L IS USM
Nikkor AF-S VR 200-400/4 G ED

There's a few others I would replace a few of those with myself tho.



Jul 17, 2013 at 08:46 AM
Jon Tainton
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · The world's sharpest lenses


I have to ask, but who do you consciously shill louder for - Zeiss or Sony?

philip_pj wrote:
While obviously no slouches at making 'sharp' lenses, Zeiss have maintained that 'apparent sharpness' is a very important characteristic to consider. Not sure if Roger or anyone else has done something similar to his 50mm comparo, but I would be willing to wager the 100MP and perhaps the 135APO would not top their respective 'sharpness' lists...despite being sublime photographic lenses.

I am constantly surprised at my Contax 100/3.5 which is not in the same league as most topflight C/N lenses most likely, yet does a fabulous job. These 100mm CZ lenses have very similar MTF and distortion characters.

On the
...Show more



Jul 17, 2013 at 09:28 AM
michael49
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · The world's sharpest lenses


FlyPenFly wrote:
Panasonic 20mm F1.7, a perfect example of a sharp but unexciting disappointing lens.


Hey! There are some of us here who love the Pany 20 1.7.

Interesting to see the Sigma 70mm f/2.8 macro on the list - I own that lens and it is fantastic.



Jul 17, 2013 at 11:49 AM
zephoto
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · The world's sharpest lenses


rscheffler wrote:
Surprised to see the Zeiss ZE/ZF 18/3.5 on the list since it's often maligned as inferior to the 21/2.8. Their comments about Leica lenses are interesting... I'd be curious to see how the 21 SEM compares against the other wides they included in their top 10.


I've got to say my ZE18 sample is SUPER crispy. Sure it's got some the handlebar distortion but that's easily corrected in LR. Every time I take a shot I am impressed by how sharp it is.



Jul 17, 2013 at 02:51 PM
alundeb
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · The world's sharpest lenses


theSuede wrote:
I've seen the original data that underlies the Foto list, the raw transfer function data from the Zeiss K8 that later becomes the MTF charts.

The list stands for the lp/mm choice, but not for global contrast (veiling flare) or contrast at 80lp/mm.

But it IS just a list, and for a list based on actual facts you need some kind of baseline criteria. Foto's normal criteria was used, and they're usually quite reasonable criteria for normal photography. They might not be accurate if you're looking for maximum contrast at 80lp/mm or higher, where modern DSLR's are (5µm pixel = 100lp/mm).



Are the MTF's shown at apertures "wide open" and "f/8" ? In that case the list has little relevance if one wants to find the lenses that can produce the highest sharpness possible. Not many lenses are at their sharpest at "wide open" or at f/8.



Jul 17, 2013 at 04:08 PM
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