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Archive 2013 · Discussing terms for sports photography
  
 
pplskills
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p.1 #1 · Discussing terms for sports photography


When meeting with a media relations for an organization, what things should be discussed prior to the event. I went ahead and edited out the rest of my question as people were raging. Someone mentioned insurance, could someone provide more detail on that.

Thank you.


Edited on Jul 12, 2013 at 09:46 AM · View previous versions



Jul 12, 2013 at 04:13 AM
Jeff Napier
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p.1 #2 · Discussing terms for sports photography


Reach's for popcorn.....


Jul 12, 2013 at 04:23 AM
Jefferson
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p.1 #3 · Discussing terms for sports photography


I would negotiate food and beer money along with the field access at the very leastů




Jul 12, 2013 at 04:52 AM
picboy
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p.1 #4 · Discussing terms for sports photography


That's nice of you. I assume the security guards, vendors, refs, coaches, maintenance people, etc volunteer for the games too? So you will take all that gear you paid cash for and work a good 4-5 hours per game shooting, captioning and filing for free? At LEAST get that hot dog and soda. I'm sure the volunteer media director gets a similar perk package maybe even a cup of coffee before the game. Heck, go over the top and demand an official, not knock-off, team hat.

Oh, do make sure to offer to provide free portraits of the players and even short game videos for their website. Those are important skills you will need to master when you decide to move on and volunteer for an NFL team. I hear the local NFL media guy gives his volunteer photogs free cheerleader calendars-autographed!!

All the best.



Jul 12, 2013 at 05:09 AM
innaeddy1
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p.1 #5 · Discussing terms for sports photography


I am sure this thread will probably blow up. Look what picboy wrote, read it then read it again. I am going to try and say this in a way not to come off like an a$$

1....get rid of this word volunteering

2.... What kind of things should be discussed at our meeting as far as the terms? How much money are you going to get paid, How can you use the files, How the school can use the files, do I get money off the sales from the school.

3....What kind of insurance do you have, for your gear and yourself

4....If you want to "practice your craft" why not go to a local High School or Middle School or even a rec park, most people on the sidelines are working professionals

5.... The school has a budget I am sure for photography, even if it is a small school, so if they can get it for free they will

6....Your not helping yourself by doing this, you are alienating yourself from other people who would be willing to help. Trust me when the working photographers on the sideline find out your giving images away for free and working for access your name will spread like wildfire and not in a good way.

I know this is not what you wanted to hear, but you need to take a long hard look before doing this for the terms you mentioned. I am sure other people will chime in so you had better get a thick skin quick if you don't already

Andy



Jul 12, 2013 at 05:36 AM
picboy
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p.1 #6 · Discussing terms for sports photography


Ok, Andy said it better than me.....




oh, learn how to use PhotoMechanic.


Edited on Jul 12, 2013 at 06:50 AM · View previous versions



Jul 12, 2013 at 05:54 AM
millsart
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p.1 #7 · Discussing terms for sports photography


I will typically charge most universities I shoot for $300-500 per game which they always seem happy to pay for the coverage and I still have fun doing it.

If your images are good enough that the school wants to use them, then they are worth being paid for.

Don't screw yourself over giving away your work for free, and don't screw over the rest of the industry who is working to keep a roof over their heads and worries about supporting their families, not "practicing their craft and having fun"



Jul 12, 2013 at 06:18 AM
jspytek
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p.1 #8 · Discussing terms for sports photography


I didn't see the beginning before you edited your comment. But remember, you have pplskills! Don't forget your flare! And truth be told, my licenses plate says " TPS RPRT" I have people speeding up to me and taking pictures of it all the time on the road.

Oh and duck, here comes Lumbert.



Jul 12, 2013 at 09:56 AM
pplskills
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p.1 #9 · Discussing terms for sports photography


picboy wrote:
That's nice of you. I assume the security guards, vendors, refs, coaches, maintenance people, etc volunteer for the games too? So you will take all that gear you paid cash for and work a good 4-5 hours per game shooting, captioning and filing for free? At LEAST get that hot dog and soda. I'm sure the volunteer media director gets a similar perk package maybe even a cup of coffee before the game. Heck, go over the top and demand an official, not knock-off, team hat.

Oh, do make sure to offer to provide free portraits of the players and
...Show more

Thanks for keeping things friendly picboy. Your response is pretty much par for the field on internet forums these days. You must be making the big bucks huh.

innaeddy1 wrote:
I am sure this thread will probably blow up. Look what picboy wrote, read it then read it again. I am going to try and say this in a way not to come off like an a$$

1....get rid of this word volunteering

2.... What kind of things should be discussed at our meeting as far as the terms? How much money are you going to get paid, How can you use the files, How the school can use the files, do I get money off the sales from the school.

3....What kind of insurance do you have, for your gear and yourself

4....If
...Show more

1.) Good advice, didn't meant to offend anyone. Not sure why everyone always feels threatened by the noobs. You professionals think someone with no experience is going to steal your business? Not gonna happen. Everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way up. If volunteering in exchange for access is going to get me in the door then so be it.

2.) What I was thinking. Thanks.

3.) I don't know anything about insurance that is needed. That is something I would need to discussed. Thanks for bringing it up.

4.) Not a bad idea.

5.) Yes, they are on budget. I believe a majority of the guys helping out are student interns at the moment.

6.) I respectfully disagree. The more people that can help out the better. Yes, there will probably be a working professional from the local paper there but we wouldn't be taking anything away from them. Is there something wrong with wanting to help your school and be involved?

I don't mind hearing this Andy, but this is not what I expected. Thanks for your comments.


picboy wrote:
Ok, Andy said it better than me.....

oh, learn how to use PhotoMechanic.


Thanks, I hear this is a great program that will speed up your workflow.

millsart wrote:
I will typically charge most universities I shoot for $300-500 per game which they always seem happy to pay for the coverage and I still have fun doing it.

If your images are good enough that the school wants to use them, then they are worth being paid for.

Don't screw yourself over giving away your work for free, and don't screw over the rest of the industry who is working to keep a roof over their heads and worries about supporting their families, not "practicing their craft and having fun"





I see a bit where you are coming from on this one. However, I think that is a poor mentality. Do you see anyone with a camera a direct competitor? I'm sure you have years of experience and that puts you on a whole different level. Like I said before, we all start somewhere. I mean where did you start? I don't plan on doing this for a living but if my work did get good enough then sure I would charge accordingly. Also, is this how pros feel now that cameras are better and cheaper than ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik .


Edited on Jul 12, 2013 at 10:53 AM · View previous versions



Jul 12, 2013 at 10:35 AM
innaeddy1
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p.1 #10 · Discussing terms for sports photography


Insurance for your gear if it gets destroyed, etc or worse yet, You could be held liable and sued if someone gets hurt by your gear or running into you etc

Andy



Jul 12, 2013 at 10:38 AM
 

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pplskills
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p.1 #11 · Discussing terms for sports photography


innaeddy1 wrote:
Insurance for your gear if it gets destroyed, etc or worse yet, You could be held liable and sued if someone gets hurt by your gear or running into you etc

Andy


My equipment gets destroyed, so be it. Held liable for someone else running into me and then getting sued...only in this great country. Merica. But yes, I will discuss. I doubt other student interns have insurance unless provided by school.



Jul 12, 2013 at 10:43 AM
Marty Bingham
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p.1 #12 · Discussing terms for sports photography


If you want shots for your portfolio just tell the media people you want shots for your portfolio. No need to get into an elaborate business deal. Most schools have kids shooting for their free content and they probably don't need yours anyway.

As far as the responses you are getting here, photographers aren't any different than anyone else working at the game, except for being much more tolerant. Set up a grill beside the concession stand and start giving away hot dogs and see how long it takes you to be escorted away or even arrested.

For insurance, you need liability to cover injuries and or law suits. Nobody cares about your equipment. If you get hit in the head with a baseball or get run over by a football player you could be permanently disabled. Same thing if someone is injured because you are in the way. You could be sued and have to pay a big settlement or huge legal fees or both. The same agent who handles your other insurance can set you up a business liability policy.

Thanks,
Marty



Jul 12, 2013 at 12:17 PM
Trevorma
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p.1 #13 · Discussing terms for sports photography


pplskills wrote:
I see a bit where you are coming from on this one. However, I think that is a poor mentality. Do you see anyone with a camera a direct competitor? I'm sure you have years of experience and that puts you on a whole different level. Like I said before, we all start somewhere. I mean where did you start? I don't plan on doing this for a living but if my work did get good enough then sure I would charge accordingly. Also, is this how pros feel now that cameras are better and cheaper than ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik .


The problem I have with the bold part is this....I assume you have a "day" job and as such you are paid for your "day" job? How would you feel if I volunteered my time to do your day job? You would be out of work pretty quick eh?

In my case I work as a civil engineer, I invested money in to getting my education and as such I am paid for the work I do...I started at the bottom of my company, the pay was not what someone with years of experience was getting but I worked my way up to decent pay and benefits ...I would NEVER volunteer to do my day job. So why do people feel it is right to volunteer to do Photography on the side and not see why it will piss people off?



Jul 12, 2013 at 02:45 PM
Carl Auer
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p.1 #14 · Discussing terms for sports photography


NCAA requires a minimum $ of liability insurance. So if you hang strobes or remote cameras and one happens to fall, either onto the court or into the stands, you are covered. Personally, I would not even go into a meeting with any school or organization/team without liability insurance.


Jul 12, 2013 at 03:44 PM
innaeddy1
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p.1 #15 · Discussing terms for sports photography


6....Your not helping yourself by doing this, you are alienating yourself from other people who would be willing to help. Trust me when the working photographers on the sideline find out your giving images away for free and working for access your name will spread like wildfire and not in a good way.

6.) I respectfully disagree. The more people that can help out the better. Yes, there will probably be a working professional from the local paper there but we wouldn't be taking anything away from them. Is there something wrong with wanting to help your school and be involved?

You can disagree, but I don't think you understood what I said........When someone of the working professionals find out what your doing you will get no more help and your name will be mud real quick

Yes you would be taking away from them and every other working pro who is trying to make rent while your just having fun and shooting for your portfolio. When you work for free then the SID gets it in his head that all could be free, so when you get your gear smashed and no insurance to repair or replace and the next guy who happens to be a working pro trying to make rent approaches the SID to shoot for a fee he says no I want it free the last gut did it so should you.

No there is nothing wrong with wanting to help your school, Is there something wrong with wanting to be paid for work. If you want to volunteer and help your school be a parking attendant, usher, vendor, etc and even those people get paid. If you want to volunteer your time and not get paid just ask I am sure they would be more than willing to accommodate you.

Do you see anyone with a camera a direct competitor? Like I said before, we all start somewhere. I mean where did you start? I don't plan on doing this for a living but if my work did get good enough then sure I would charge accordingly.

Yes, if I am on the sideline along with other photographers they are my competition, that is who I am competing against. Am I intimidated by them, NO

I started at a rec park shooting the young kids, I still shoot at that rec park, but I didn't do it for free.

Once you start at free its a lot harder to start charging, and when you come back down the road to the SID and want to renegotiate your terms, he says no thanks I will find someone else who will do it for free, then you approach a new school and ask the SID if you can shoot he says sure for the same price you charged xxx school FREE.


My equipment gets destroyed, so be it. Held liable for someone else running into me and then getting sued...only in this great country. Merica. But yes, I will discuss. I doubt other student interns have insurance unless provided by school.

If that's the way you feel whose to argue, I wouldn't even want my P&S to get destroyed and have to replace it.

Yes you can be held reliable and not just in America, so at a minimum a 2million$ liability would be a good place to start.

An Intern is an employee of the school and would be covered under the school I would guess, Are you an intern at this school


You professionals think someone with no experience is going to steal your business? Not gonna happen. Everyone has to start at the bottom and work their way up.

I don't think your going to steal MY business, but you could possibly hurt someones else business because no one can compete with free, and yes it happens all the time

You are correct most everyone has to start at the bottom, that's where I started the very bottom, but I didn't do it for free

What it all boils down to and what people are trying to say is don't do it for free, get something in return for your time, I will help a person any way I know how if I know that person is trying to help themselves, but in this industry there is a right way and a wrong way and when you go the wrong way it can get real lonely. So when you have your meeting ask for a fee, see what he says be honest and like Marty said tell them straight up what you want to do.

Andy



Jul 12, 2013 at 04:53 PM
millsart
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p.1 #16 · Discussing terms for sports photography


pplskills wrote:
[
I see a bit where you are coming from on this one. However, I think that is a poor mentality. Do you see anyone with a camera a direct competitor? I'm sure you have years of experience and that puts you on a whole different level. Like I said before, we all start somewhere. I mean where did you start? I don't plan on doing this for a living but if my work did get good enough then sure I would charge accordingly. Also, is this how pros feel now that cameras are better and cheaper than ever: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=768h3Tz4Qik .



Yes I do pretty much see anyone with a camera as a competitor, potential or otherwise, because in this industry, all it takes to call yourself a "pro" photographer is simply that, calling yourself a pro photographer. Doesn't mean your a good one, but I'm sure we all know of someone in our respective towns who does pretty poor work technically but that has and continues to get work doing weddings, or senior portraits or what ever. Quality of your work and what you charge is a fixed relationship in this industry. Great photogs sometimes undervalue themselves, total hacks with a good head for business can make out like bandits. Perhaps it would be nice if people were paid for their skill but just as in any industry its not how it always works.

Calling yourself a "pro" does not make you one yet and technically you still are. Its not like anyone with a dremel drill can go and call themselves a dentist. There are educational requirements, licensing boards and such. Not so with photography. There is no governing board, license test, educational requirement or anything.

As such, anyone could become a competitor. Frankly competitors really are everyone too. When one of the school SID's for a given sport I cover takes some photos with their own camera and uses them for their press release that is competition. They aren't as good, but if they are happy with them for their needs and they aren't requesting event coverage through the creative services dept, I might not get as much work and the budgeting folks might end up decreasing my purchase order amount for the following year.

Fact is that there are far more photographers than there are assignments. Reality of the world today is that there are not tons of newspapers, athletic depts etc that are just dying to find some new hires and have had open positions they just can't fill. The exact opposite is true. I couldn't even begin to imagine how many applicants there must be when you take into account all the students still graduating photography programs in journalism schools every year vs the number of publications that still even have a dedicated photo staff.

Even people that aren't trying to shoot for money can be viewed as competition, even YOUR competition. Highly unlikely that you are the only hobbyist who has approached your respective school about if you can shoot for them. My school gets over 1000 credential request for a football game! Plenty of those are people just wanting to be on the sidelines and shoot. Can't blame them but obviously there isn't space for everyone.

So in effect your competing with someone else that wants to do exactly what your doing, or perhaps a parent who's kid is in their senior year, who's been shooting from the stands for the past 3 seasons and really would like to get better access the final year. He also offers to submit any photos just as he has been doing doing and sometimes when the team scored a big road win and no one else was there to shoot it, his stuff is even used. Can't go and let everybody on the field so they are torn between that guy or you.

Competition is everywhere. That isn't to say its a bad thing, some of my best friends shoot for rival publications, or we both bid on the same jobs. Sometimes they refer work to me, sometimes I refer stuff to them.

We don't need to be scared of competition, but we also need to not be naive in thinking the actions of others can't have a direct effect on us.

I have people come up to me at games and ask me who they should talk to about shooting for the university. That is someone pretty much flat out saying they would like to take my job.

I also have people who simply send in some photos they take thinking they are helping the team they support. They got a great shot of a given kid, they think the kid would like to have it or whatever so they submit it for free. Again, that can affect my job without being a direct or initial attempt to do so on the attempt of the other photographer.

When your a hobbyist other photographers are just people to talk about gear with and such, share a common bond.

When your in business other photographers are competition. Doesn't mean you can't also be friends with them, talk gear etc, but you can't forget they are your competition. Its a fundamental key to running a business, know what the rest of the market is doing.



Jul 12, 2013 at 04:57 PM
picboy
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p.1 #17 · Discussing terms for sports photography


you seem to have it figured out. good luck with the venture. take lots of shots like this, good for the portfolio:

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1225651/1#11671983



Jul 12, 2013 at 05:24 PM
CW100
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p.1 #18 · Discussing terms for sports photography


pplskills wrote:
I went ahead and edited out the rest of my question as people were raging.




Nothing like volunteering to photograph a sports event to draw out the blood!



Jul 12, 2013 at 05:33 PM
P Alesse
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p.1 #19 · Discussing terms for sports photography


CW100 wrote:
Nothing like volunteering to photograph a sports event to draw out the blood!


Or to draw out members that haven't been heard from in years. ;-)



Jul 13, 2013 at 07:06 PM
schlotz
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p.1 #20 · Discussing terms for sports photography


Trevorma wrote:
The problem I have with the bold part is this....I assume you have a "day" job and as such you are paid for your "day" job? How would you feel if I volunteered my time to do your day job? You would be out of work pretty quick eh?

In my case I work as a civil engineer, I invested money in to getting my education and as such I am paid for the work I do...I started at the bottom of my company, the pay was not what someone with years of experience was getting but I worked my way
...Show more

The "tip off" was the OP's comment about not doing this for a living and the above is an excellent response that hits the heart of the matter.

IMHO, there is a hard line between "improving your skills" and blatantly intruding in another's livelihood. The excuse that everyone has to start somewhere is poor justification to what this type of action has done to degrade and lower the earning potential of professionally working photographers.

One can morally work on improving their skills without infringing upon the livelihood of others. We were all taught as children to respect others and somehow as we venture far from our parents we contract amnesia to this basic fundamental.



Jul 14, 2013 at 02:35 PM
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