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ProPhoto RGB
  
 
Luta13
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p.1 #1 · ProPhoto RGB


Quick Question for you experts: I want to do my edits in LR5 and PS6 in ProPhoto RGB. The web sometimes does wacky things with my photos if i export in ProPhoto.

Can I just export from LR5 in sRGB for web posting after having worked in PS/LR in ProPhoto? Any issues?



Jul 02, 2013 at 01:34 PM
Mr Joe
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p.1 #2 · ProPhoto RGB


Yes. Work in ProPhoto in Photoshop, and then export as sRGB for web.


Jul 02, 2013 at 02:38 PM
Luta13
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p.1 #3 · ProPhoto RGB


Okay. Thanks for your response Joe


Jul 02, 2013 at 03:10 PM
cgardner
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p.1 #4 · ProPhoto RGB


The only issue you need to worry about is compression of the tonal range going from 16bit to 8bit.

It can sometimes clip the red channel in skin highlights giving them an odd yellowish waxy look. The solution is to allow a bit of headroom for the highlights when exposing the RAW file in camera and in your master edit copy of the file in LR.

A way to check for channels clipping in your final JPG is to open the JPG in Levels, press the opt/alt key and click on the ^ highlight slider. Any pixels which are clipping will be displayed with colors corresponding to the channel:











You can do the same with the shadows:












Jul 02, 2013 at 03:49 PM
Photon
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p.1 #5 · ProPhoto RGB


If you export jpegs directly from Lightroom, it will "translate" from ProPhoto to sRGB with appropriate adjustments. You can use LR for this even if you've edited in Photoshop, resulting in a PSD file. Just export as JPG from the PSD.

There are "color aware" browsers (including Safari and Firefox, perhaps others by now) that will properly display an AdobeRGB image, but ProPhoto probably would still look wrong. For the vast majority of situations, the best chance that people viewing images on the web will see what you intend will be if you provide the images in sRGB color space.



Jul 03, 2013 at 04:36 AM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #6 · ProPhoto RGB


" that will properly display an AdobeRGB image, but ProPhoto probably would still look wrong"

A profile savvy, color managed app, no matter what it is, will display properly no matter what the color space, as long as the color space profile is embedded in the file, so sRGB, Adobe1998, ProPhoto, Ektaspace, etc., will all display correctly, within the capability of whatever screen you are viewing on, and to the extent that the screen is calibrated with an accurate profile.



Jul 03, 2013 at 05:55 AM
mshi
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p.1 #7 · ProPhoto RGB


a greater advice is not to use ProPhoto in the first place. don't believe it? Just bring up an image in ProPhoto in Photoshop, convert it to sRGB using all different intent modes that are available, use Difference blend mode to examine whether or not those sRGB images are the same. The conclusion: Adobe has handicapped it since the beginning.


Jul 03, 2013 at 07:56 PM
Ho1972
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p.1 #8 · ProPhoto RGB


mshi wrote:
a greater advice is not to use ProPhoto in the first place. don't believe it? Just bring up an image in ProPhoto in Photoshop, convert it to sRGB using all different intent modes that are available, use Difference blend mode to examine whether or not those sRGB images are the same. The conclusion: Adobe has handicapped it since the beginning.


What happens if you do that with printer profiles?



Jul 03, 2013 at 08:09 PM
mshi
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p.1 #9 · ProPhoto RGB


Ho1972 wrote:
What happens if you do that with printer profiles?


then you need to experiment with the printer profiles you intend to use.



Jul 03, 2013 at 08:13 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #10 · ProPhoto RGB


"a greater advice is not to use ProPhoto in the first place. don't believe it? Just bring up an image in ProPhoto in Photoshop, convert it to sRGB using all different intent modes that are available"

Hey mshi - it doesn't matter WHAT rendering intent you use when converting from working space to working space. Whatever rendering intent you choose you're going to get Relative Colorimetric. All of those matrix based RGB working space profiles only have the the one intent.

I do agree that most people should not be using ProPhoto, particularly when they don't have a deeper understanding of digital color in general.



Jul 03, 2013 at 11:01 PM
 

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Luta13
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p.1 #11 · ProPhoto RGB


The reason I used ProPhoto is that it seemed to be the recommended space for pros that make prints from their images. 90% of what I produce goes on the web and not print. But, my thought was, If I'm going to spend a bunch of time editing a photo then I want to edit for print and be done. I was hoping to just be able to change the space at export for web viewing if needed.
Is my thinking flawed?
Thanks to all for your knowledgeable responses.
Mike



Jul 05, 2013 at 04:47 PM
Peter Figen
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p.1 #12 · ProPhoto RGB


There are at least two schools of thought on the matter. One, of course, as you know, is to use the widest gamut possible to "preserve" everything that was in front of your camera. The other is to use a gamut that is more conservative but still provides for great looking, saturated prints and more or less matches the gamut of your printing devices.

The people that subscribe to the first scenario are often paranoid about losing any bit of detail, and many times make ProPhoto files that will never be printable on any device in our limited lifetimes. So, it's great to have a wide range of colors, but if you can't ever reproduce them, is there really a point? Secondly, there are often issues when moving from a super saturated ProPhoto image to a file that's going to print on a limited gamut printer like a Fuji or Lightjet. When the out of gamut areas are too far out of gamut, that's when you can actually see the effects of the choice of rendering intent on the output. You either clip off saturated detail (RelCol) and end up with areas of flat color, or you compress the gamut (Perceptual) and compromise on the accuracy of your in gamut colors, which have to be moved closer together to maintain color separation. And if you take a super saturated ProPhoto and convert it to any other working space made with a matrix profile, you're only going to get a Relative Colorimetric conversion anyway.

Rather than choose a blanket, one size fits all approach, it's often more effective to choose your working space based on the type of image you're making. The plain fact is, is that most images just don't have the gamut range that requires a super large gamut RGB working space, and even when there are small areas in an image that do fall outside of something like sRGB or Adobe RGB, they simply have no visible effect on the output.

About a year and a half ago, I made a series of large prints that I sent to another FM member when we were having a discussion regarding the utter horribleness of sending jpegs to print. Not only did I make a series of prints from progressively lower quality jpegs, but also comparing sRGB, AdobeRGB and ProPhoto on some saturated images. The conclusions were surprising, both to me and to Phil. It actually took getting down to something a jpeg level 4 quality to actually see anything in print, and the differences between sRGB and ProPhoto on a large, saturated image, were so small that if you didn't know what you were looking for, you probably wouldn't have seen it. And, if you weren't printing on a large gamut medium - in this case Lexjet eSatin on an Epson 9900 - the differences would have been even smaller.

My suggestion is to make a series of test outputs of your typical types of images and see if you can see a difference, and if so, how much. You might be surprised at how much hype there is out there, especially from those purporting to be professionals.



Jul 05, 2013 at 06:57 PM
hugowolf
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p.1 #13 · ProPhoto RGB


Peter Figen wrote:
... The plain fact is, is that most images just don't have the gamut range that requires a super large gamut RGB working space, and even when there are small areas in an image that do fall outside of something like sRGB or Adobe RGB, they simply have no visible effect on the output. ...


So how is this an argument against using a wide gamut working space? I don't see your point. They would have no visible effect on the output either way, but with a wide space you have a choice of how they are rendered, and with a small space they disappeared before you had the choice.

Brian A



Jul 06, 2013 at 12:30 AM
mshi
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p.1 #14 · ProPhoto RGB


Which cameras come with ProPhoto color profile? Can anyone enlighten me?


Jul 06, 2013 at 02:19 AM
Luta13
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p.1 #15 · ProPhoto RGB


I like using the TK luminosity masks. In one tutorial of theirs, they suggest ProPhotoRGB paired with grey space: grey gamma 1.8 for optimal performance when working with luminosity masks.
Although they also say that pairing AdobeRGB with the grey space: Grey Gamma 2.2 is also acceptable. They feel that working in ProPhoto now gives you greater opportunity in the future.

So, I went Prophoto. But, I noticed some web images look less than optimal.

I'll just export JPEGs from LR5 in sRGB if its for web.

Thanks guys



Jul 06, 2013 at 02:30 AM
WAYCOOL
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p.1 #16 · ProPhoto RGB


My cameras don't use any color space, I shoot raw my cameras can't even shoot jpg's.


Jul 06, 2013 at 03:42 AM
hugowolf
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p.1 #17 · ProPhoto RGB


mshi wrote:
Which cameras come with ProPhoto color profile? Can anyone enlighten me?


Your statement makes no sense, if you are shooting raw. If you are shooting straight to a jpeg conversion in-camera, then you are 8-bit, and a wide space wouldn't be advisable in most cases.

For almost any decent camera, the gamut will far exceed any current output media. When best to compress the gamut, is open to some debate, but why compress it during editing, unless you know what the output gamut is?

I don't do much black and white work, but when I do, I wouldn't dream of letting the camera decide that conversion either.

Brian A



Jul 06, 2013 at 04:14 AM
mshi
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p.1 #18 · ProPhoto RGB


hugowolf wrote:
Your statement makes no sense, if you are shooting raw. If you are shooting straight to a jpeg conversion in-camera, then you are 8-bit, and a wide space wouldn't be advisable in most cases.

For almost any decent camera, the gamut will far exceed any current output media. When best to compress the gamut, is open to some debate, but why compress it during editing, unless you know what the output gamut is?

I don't do much black and white work, but when I do, I wouldn't dream of letting the camera decide that conversion either.

Brian A


i don't understand what you are saying. let me rephrase: which of your cameras come with ProPhoto color space?



Jul 06, 2013 at 04:45 AM
WAYCOOL
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p.1 #19 · ProPhoto RGB


mshi wrote:
i don't understand what you are saying. let me rephrase: which of your cameras come with ProPhoto color space?


Why are you being obtuse?



Jul 06, 2013 at 04:56 AM
hugowolf
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p.1 #20 · ProPhoto RGB


mshi wrote:
i don't understand what you are saying. let me rephrase: which of your cameras come with ProPhoto color space?


You can rephrase as much as you want, but my cameras come with their own space, which may not be confined to ProPhotoRGB, but certainly exceeds sRGB and AdobeRGB by a large margin.

Brian A



Jul 06, 2013 at 05:23 AM
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