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Archive 2013 · RX1 vs X100S
  
 
Jochenb
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p.5 #1 · RX1 vs X100S


I've been there myself Ricardo. Maybe it's best that you look at as many photos from both cameras as possible. If you really like what you see from the Fuji and don't have a clear preference for the RX1... I would say go for the X100s. It's a lot cheaper and I personally like USING it more than the RX1 (not talking about the IQ for a moment). The user inface is better and the hybrid viewfinder is very cool. I don't care for looks.


Jul 03, 2013 at 08:58 PM
ricardovaste
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p.5 #2 · RX1 vs X100S


joe88 wrote:
Douglas, I haven't tried an OVF extensively on the RX1 but have put on my CV28 finder once or twice to get a feel for it. It seems to work OK and I have also read about your positive experiences with the CV 35 finder. Maybe I need to give it a try again. EVF definitely does not work for me for the type of street photography I do. Too much lag and loss of contrast in bright lit scenes. My Leicas work great for what I shoot but sometimes I prefer the RX1 silent shutter and it is also
...Show more


These are the kind of concerns I have for real-life-use. Snap-focus, which I've read about on Ricoh's sound like it would be ideal - just go to 3 meters, 5 meters, 9 meters etc with no lag. As I just mentioned, I do kind of with the EC dial was a shutter dial... even if reprogrammed through firmware, I'm not sure it would be so great. You really need to "see" on the dial where you're at. I wonder if this workable through firmware:

1) Allow focus distance to be dialed into the memory slots (1,2,3 on the PASM dial).

2) Actually remember the damn distance when turned off.

3) Allow more accurate manual focus options/range (the scale seems kind of limited).

That way you could easily have it set 2-3 specific distances ( I don't think you'd need more ) and it would go there instantly, without jumping into the screen. Selecting 1,2,3 isn't as natural as you simply turning a real focus ring of course, but perhaps workable.

Would you really need 5-6 batteries if leaving it on through the day? That's alarming. Heavy shooting with my SLR needs 2 batteries max. I was hoping casual shooting with an RX1 type could keep me around 2 as well.



Jul 03, 2013 at 08:58 PM
ricardovaste
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p.5 #3 · RX1 vs X100S


Jochenb wrote:
I've been there myself Ricardo. Maybe it's best that you look at as many photos from both cameras as possible. If you really like what you see from the Fuji and don't have a clear preference for the RX1... I would say go for the X100s. It's a lot cheaper and I personally like USING it more than the RX1 (not talking about the IQ for a moment). The user inface is better and the hybrid viewfinder is very cool. I don't care for looks.


Stupid dilemma really. I just don't like buying/selling stuff as it feels kind of wasteful to myself personally (and can be a bit of a faff from a tax pov). I can say one thing for certain: it would be much easier if someone would just buy one for me *nudges Helena* ;-)



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:01 PM
ricardovaste
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p.5 #4 · RX1 vs X100S


douglasf13 wrote:
To be honest, neither the X100s or RX1 is going to replace something like an M, when it comes to zone focusing. The shutter dial thing doesn't bother me at all, as the camera does keep your shutter and aperture settings when turning the camera off, and looking at my shutter speed on a dial isn't really any different than looking at it on a screen. You've also got the preset modes on the mode dial that you can customize.


Yeah, perhaps I should take that back about the dial. Using M mode + auto ISO and then just glancing at the LCD for shutter speed does sound very reasonable. I get the impression the X100S is definitely better for zone focusing though ? You get it in VF, the scale seems better, and it remembers it after you turn it off.



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:03 PM
joe88
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p.5 #5 · RX1 vs X100S


ricardovaste wrote:
You see, that really is still part of the dilemma. This would be a day-to-day / street / observation / travel camera for me, and I know the VF and controls of the X100S would suit this more. Or at least I think they would, without trying either. I'm not "retro head" (my main cameras are Sony's) but I do feel this would be an easier decision if Sony just used a shutter speed dial...

A snap-on OVF with info overlay would be nice, but given the price / size of the current one, I'm not sure it's feasible. One
...Show more

As long as you don't go and try out a RX1 or edit its RAW files after purchasing a X100s, I think you would be safe as you won't really know what you are missing?

I had issues with my EVF on the RX1 as well, I have dropped it many times but the rubber band trick seems to work so far. As for OVF on the RX1, you could also use a Voigtlander 35mm OVF as a cheaper alternative to the Zeiss ones.

I think you won't be disappointed with either camera, but even if you have to sacrifice RX1 IQ for the X100s useability, I think it is somewhat easier to justify getting a X100s as it is significantly cheaper? I've seen tons of great pictures taken with the X100/X100s cameras, it must really be a fun camera which inspires people to want to pick one up and use it. I know quite a few Magnum Photos photographers who have used/tried the X100/X1000s - Josef Koudleka, Martin Parr, D A Harvey, John Vink. But I also know that other Magnum Photo photographers will not touch a X100s just because it is not full frame. The discussions will never end



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:05 PM
Jochenb
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p.5 #6 · RX1 vs X100S


It's not stupid. I know your feeling. Before entering the mirrorless world I was almost never selling stuff. I just shot with canon + Zeiss ZE, end of story. That's completely different now
Even though you lose some money when selling, I don't really mind in the end because it's the best way to get to know the different systems.



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:06 PM
ricardovaste
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p.5 #7 · RX1 vs X100S


Very good points Joe... . BTW, do you have a link to Martin Parr's X100S photos? Just interested!

@JochenB: Very true. I guess because I went down that route with an SLR system I like to think I've learnt more about what suits me now and to not repeat mistakes. But clearly I haven't learnt that much, as otherwise we wouldn't be having the discussion . I've not bought anything mirrorless yet at all, just continued a bit of film. Tried a compact camera (Samsung EX1) but haven't used it for absolutely ages now as it just doesn't want to be used.



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:10 PM
joe88
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p.5 #8 · RX1 vs X100S


douglasf13 wrote:
To be honest, neither the X100s or RX1 is going to replace something like an M, when it comes to zone focusing. The shutter dial thing doesn't bother me at all, as the camera does keep your shutter and aperture settings when turning the camera off, and looking at my shutter speed on a dial isn't really any different than looking at it on a screen. You've also got the preset modes on the mode dial that you can customize.


I agree, it would be hard to replace a Leica M but for the type of street shooting I do, I am almost always using hyperfocal with infinity in focus. For these type of street shooting, I don't use RF focusing on the M at all. I am drawn to the Leica RFs because of its simplicity, set ISO and WB manually, look at aperture scale on lens for zone/hyperfocal and a shutter dial when the light changes. I don't like the idea of having to look at a LCD screen to check shutter speeds, I rather have it on a dial where I can adjust on the fly without even looking at it, feeling the clicks along the way. That to me is the best thing about shooting with a Leica, it gets out of the way. Ever recall the Wim Wenders ad for Leica M8?

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rlOppFsQGEY

This one advertisement sold me on the M8 ... and when I tried the X100s, its the only other camera so far that come closest to the Leica experience for me.

The RX1 can give me a very similar shooting method, all I need is either a snap focus mode (best) or a manual focus memory (workable) and maybe a way to complete switch off the LCD to conserve batteries. Finally attach an OVF and I'm all set


ricardovaste wrote:
As I just mentioned, I do kind of with the EC dial was a shutter dial... even if reprogrammed through firmware, I'm not sure it would be so great. You really need to "see" on the dial where you're at ...

Would you really need 5-6 batteries if leaving it on through the day? That's alarming. Heavy shooting with my SLR needs 2 batteries max. I was hoping casual shooting with an RX1 type could keep me around 2 as well.


I think I could use a marker and tape to write certain speeds on the EC dial if needed. But I doubt there is a demand for this feature, too hardcore for Sony users

As for batteries, I have ran out of 4 batteries in a 3-4 hour shooting window one afternoon, with the EVF and LCD constantly switched ON to avoid having to reset manual focusing distance. The RX1 battery capacity is too small. Would be great if someone came up with some sort of a integral grip with additional batteries.


ricardovaste wrote:
BTW, do you have a link to Martin Parr's X100S photos? Just interested!


Can't find the exact page on Magnum site but here is a link for a pic on Kouldeka.
http://www.dpreview.com/forums/post/39045197

and some info on Martin Parr here, not to mention if you shoot with a X100s, you will be in the esteemed company of other greats such as William Egglestone, Nan Goldin, Stephen Shore and more. Fuji really nailed their marketing spot on with these endorsements.
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.437181176354691.100296.427388394000636&type=1

David Alan Harvey wrote about his experiences with the X100s in his Burn Magazine site. You'll need to look in the archives. Otherwise, I think there might be a few pics here
https://www.facebook.com/media/set/?set=a.519503038093648.1073741829.255861124457842&type=3

John Vink on RX1 and X100s
http://johnvink.com/news/2013/02/gear-talk-sony-rx1/
http://johnvink.com/news/2013/04/as-a-tourist-in-singapore/



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:48 PM
millsart
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p.5 #9 · RX1 vs X100S


I think if you just set the camera to not automatically go into power save mode, and set the LCD to the OVF mode, where it just displays a strip of info with SS etc across the bottom, you could probably get decent battery life out of the camera, and it would stay focused at your zone or hyperfocal setting.

One nice thing about the RX1 to me, is that I really don't ever even think about ISO, just leaving it on auto. 1/80ths works pretty well for me in Av mode, but I've found that I can just set the SS and fstop in manual mode, and then let the camera ride the ISO up/down as needed. I do this when I want a faster minimum shutter speed.

To my knowledge the X100s still doesn't let you select min shutter speed for auto ISO yet either ? My XE-1 doesn't. Such a useful feature that so many otherwise well thought out cameras skip.

Anyways though, Given how clean the RX1 files are, I don't really care if the camera goes up to 3200 or even 6400, especially for street shooting.

What also is nice about the RX1 is that even when in manual mode, EC still works, so really all you need to do is dial that up/down at account for backlit subjects on the fly.

Throw an OVF on the top, which are surprisingly accurate (I've got the 35mm VC) and you should have a pretty good street shooter.

I would like to see a f/w though save MF distances and also update the focal scale for more precision, in addition to allowing peaking with the non-zooming in view.



Jul 03, 2013 at 10:10 PM
douglasf13
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p.5 #10 · RX1 vs X100S


Yeah, I don't do a lot of exposure adjustment when street shooting, whether I'm zone focusing or not. I just set my aperture and shutter in M mode, let autoISO do it's thing, and ride the Exp. comp button, if need be.

The X100s does allow you to set a minimum shutter for autoISO, unlike the X-E1, but it doesn't allow exp. comp. adjustment if you're shooting in M mode with autoISO.

ricardovaste, I do think the X100s is better than the RX1 for zone focus, but mostly because of the power off thing. The distance scale in the OVF doesn't really affect me, since I'd set it before bringing the camera to my eye, anyways. The scale of the X100s is better, but it doesn't bother me much. Either way, something like an M, or even a manual lens on a NEX, Fuji X, m4/3, etc., will all be better for zone focusing, IMO.



Jul 03, 2013 at 10:24 PM
 

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Mescalamba
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p.5 #11 · RX1 vs X100S


Soo..

I downloaded some RAW files from X100s. Its pretty good, but its no way anywhere near RX1. Plus X-trans really doesnt help things. I have very good converter for this, but it still does moiré/noise.

And all images look bit soft-ish (quite strange, but maybe X100s lens isnt that amazing?). RX1 lens is really sharp.



Jul 03, 2013 at 10:32 PM
philip_pj
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p.5 #12 · RX1 vs X100S


'I am almost always using hyperfocal with infinity in focus.'

This might be an unusual method for the kind of photography the camera is primarily intended for, I don't think Sony had these 'magnum' fellows in mind or even street shooting. You can get a Leica if you like Leica, and they are good enough and certainly simple enough.

Reading this almost exclusively usability related discussion, it strikes me that a lot of people really seem to need the camera to work 'their' way, and even image quality takes a back seat among all the personal needs and preferences.

Not my way of shooting fortunately, I kind of like quirky cameras *provided they deliver the goods*. As for setting focus distance, how hard is it really? Not much AF in a Leica M either; AF has become pretty indispensable for the fast low light work I need, quite a surprise to me.

On AF, I have found the EVF gives pretty good and reliable feedback of focus accuracy, even without camera confirm or often focus mag. Battery life I never need more than two per shoot, but they charge slow in poor power supplies (India).

On swapping systems more due to mirrorless, that is entirely in your hands...I am happy with the RX1 and will keep it a long time.



Jul 03, 2013 at 11:19 PM
millsart
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p.5 #13 · RX1 vs X100S


Problem with setting the focus distance Phillip is that the camera doesn't revert back to the previous MF distance, so you have to refocus all the time, rather than being able to set and forget it at say, 2 meters whenever you switch to manual and/or power back up.

Given you can have an af/mf front dial, or assign to the Dpad, it would be nice if you could just hit a button, and throw it into MF mode, with the camera already preset at a given zone focus distance, then if you wanted AF, switch back



Jul 03, 2013 at 11:36 PM
joe88
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p.5 #14 · RX1 vs X100S


millsart wrote:
I think if you just set the camera to not automatically go into power save mode, and set the LCD to the OVF mode, where it just displays a strip of info with SS etc across the bottom, you could probably get decent battery life out of the camera, and it would stay focused at your zone or hyperfocal setting.


Thanks for the info, will try it out. How do you set the display to OVF mode mentioned? On the DISP Button (Monitor), there is a viewfinder mode but it displays information across the entire LCD, not just a small bar at the bottom.


millsart wrote:
One nice thing about the RX1 to me, is that I really don't ever even think about ISO, just leaving it on auto. 1/80ths works pretty well for me in Av mode, but I've found that I can just set the SS and fstop in manual mode, and then let the camera ride the ISO up/down as needed. I do this when I want a faster minimum shutter speed.

Anyways though, Given how clean the RX1 files are, I don't really care if the camera goes up to 3200 or even 6400, especially for street shooting.

What also is nice
...Show more

Good tips, thanks! I agree Auto ISO is really useable on the RX1 and I use it for casual family/friend type of snaps but most of the time I am stuck with my old habit of manually adjusting ISO . I think I'll give the CV35 finder a try since both you and Douglas mentioned that it seems pretty accurate and useable with AF.



Jul 04, 2013 at 01:56 AM
douglasf13
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p.5 #15 · RX1 vs X100S


I believe that you can only use the "deactivate LCD" option if you set it to one of your custom function buttons.

When using AF with the OVF, just make remember that, when the subject starts getting closer, you'll have to compensate by imagining the focus box lowering in the viewfinder. If you compare and contrast where the center AF point is in relation to where you're pointing the OVF, you'll figure it out quickly.



Jul 04, 2013 at 02:01 AM
joe88
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p.5 #16 · RX1 vs X100S


philip_pj wrote:
Reading this almost exclusively usability related discussion, it strikes me that a lot of people really seem to need the camera to work 'their' way, and even image quality takes a back seat among all the personal needs and preferences.


Actually, if image quality was not a concern, we won't be here talking about trying to get the best out of the RX1, and some of us would be happy shooting a Fuji X100S or even with a cell phone camera? I think many of us agree that the biggest draw of the RX1 is the excellent lens and full frame sensor combo coupled to a compact body. This attracts photographers of all genres, pros and amateurs alike. I think the RX1 is very close to being an ideal street shooter camera, and as others have mentioned, some of us are hoping for a firmware update with additional manual focus control/improvements. Also, if Sony were not interested in street shooters or traditional OVF shooters, why would they release a Zeiss OVF as an available accessory?



Jul 04, 2013 at 02:13 AM
joe88
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p.5 #17 · RX1 vs X100S


douglasf13 wrote:
I believe that you can only use the "deactivate LCD" option if you set it to one of your custom function buttons.

When using AF with the OVF, just make remember that, when the subject starts getting closer, you'll have to compensate by imagining the focus box lowering in the viewfinder. If you compare and contrast where the center AF point is in relation to where you're pointing the OVF, you'll figure it out quickly.


Do you use center or flexible spot AF with the OVF? I seem to have better accuracy with center AF rather than flexible spot.



Jul 04, 2013 at 02:31 AM
douglasf13
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p.5 #18 · RX1 vs X100S


I just use the regular center AF point.


Jul 04, 2013 at 03:25 AM
Spyro P.
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p.5 #19 · RX1 vs X100S


philip_pj wrote:
'I am almost always using hyperfocal with infinity in focus.'

This might be an unusual method for the kind of photography the camera is primarily intended for, I don't think Sony had these 'magnum' fellows in mind or even street shooting. You can get a Leica if you like Leica, and they are good enough and certainly simple enough.

Reading this almost exclusively usability related discussion, it strikes me that a lot of people really seem to need the camera to work 'their' way, and even image quality takes a back seat among all the personal needs and preferences.


Hi Philip, you shoot predominantly landscape, right? I'm guessing this is why you might find these things surprising. Yes there are many successful photographers out there (some mentioned in this thread) for whom image quality is a secondary concern, and the main concern is to actually get the photo in the first place..

And yes, it's practically impossible to make a small capable camera without attracting magnum photographers, whether intentionally or not.



Jul 04, 2013 at 04:32 AM
philip_pj
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p.5 #20 · RX1 vs X100S


Mostly cultural photography in Tibet now, Spyro.

My point is that small, often inconsequential things, can easily dissuade people from the main game of image quality, as defined by their own desired look and level of technical quality.

So many people seem to wander from system to system searching earnestly for high usability suited to their own requirements. I would find that a misplacement of effort, that's all. Good if you see an improvement in what you are trying to do, but otherwise you might cut off your nose to spite your face.

And there are so many different ways of going about it, and as Leica M is the traditional tool of choice for street shooters of a certain 'pro' style, Leica is surely good enough for them to stay with it? Or do they see deficiencies in the latest M models?

Sony definitely had a different audience in mind however, do you agree with this? I think they were after a more eclectic target demographic, from connoiseurs to gear enthusisasts (us of course) to people who like bling, to serious shooters wanting a small killer camera for a versatile range of uses.There is not much it cannot do well, for a given FL.



Jul 04, 2013 at 07:38 AM
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