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Archive 2013 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter
  
 
douglasf13
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p.8 #1 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Hilarious! That GX680 is practically a mini view camera. It seems almost unbelievable how unaware some people are.


Yeah, it made me reconsider using large cameras. I guess if you're looking down into a gigantic, more alien-looking camera, it may not ring the same alarm bells as "regular" sized cameras.



Jul 01, 2013 at 08:46 PM
rscheffler
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p.8 #2 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


I strongly believe the motion of bringing something up to your eye results in a subconscious 'survival instinct' reaction from your photographic target. A while ago I developed a no-look shooting approach with the Canon, using a wide angle and set to live view. With the camera around my neck I'd cradle the bottom of it with my left hand, with finger on the bottom shutter release. With it set to live view and quiet(er) advance mode, it was nearly inaudible in typical environments. I didn't use the live view screen for composition. It was all zone focusing and guesstimation framing. In the last few years the greatest boon is perhaps smart phones. Not necessarily for photography, but for resulting in people being oblivious to their surroundings (if you want shots of people staring at devices - which might become an indicator of our era)

FWIW, Jim Kasson just had an interesting blog post about the cameras he's used for street photography, including a Hasselblad and a mini Arca view camera...

millsart wrote:
I find sometimes the DSLR can be an advantage because it looks professional when you are in fact shooting professionally. For example, I'm the city photographer for where I live and cover various parades and such. when I've got 2 dslrs around my neck and walk down the parade route snapping pictures of children and families, no one objects. They think I'm with a paper and ask where they can see the photos.

If I walked up with a smaller camera, and started taking pics, during the same parade, I'd get different responses I'm sure.

Two big Nikons seem to suggest
...Show more

Completely agree. The greatest benefit, IMO, is not so much with gaining access as it is keeping timid snap shooters at bay since you obviously have a 'legitimate' purpose for being there. And in the eyes of some paying clients, size of camera might also be relevant, or at least, it's not something that 'uncle Harry' also shoots with, which has resulted in some questions about the Leica too ("I'm paying you how much to use that camera?" not realizing 'that' camera and its lenses are worth more than my Canon kit... not that the value of the equipment has any bearing on the quality of the photos).



Jul 01, 2013 at 09:21 PM
ricardovaste
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p.8 #3 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


millsart wrote:
Other really cool thing about auto ISO and M mode is that the EC dial still works so you can set your min shutter speed manually and just have the camera ride the ISO as needed (which as clean as it is makes it pretty much a non issue) and then just use the EC to adjust as needed. Basically gives you the same thing as setting a min shutter speed that way


I am kind of intrigued by this technique. Ultimately, I'd always prefer to SEE what shutter speed I'm using, but if there is a work around that's not too troublesome I'd be happy to try. What I like about my hi-matic (leaf shutter) is you can shoot 1/8th, 1/15th, 1/30th, handheld very happily. You can of course go 1/60th, 1/125th, 1/250th, 1/500th, but it's all very simple. I'm not sure doing this with the RX1 would be so easy, I imagine it would take tiny increments.
sebboh wrote:
sony mirrorless camera metering is way more consistant than sony dslrs, so that would help. you can always just turn on auto iso in manual mode so you know your shutter speed and aperture and let the camera do the exposure.


That's actually not the concern for me, and I'm very happy with my Sony DSLR's for metering. It's not about simply getting an "even/average exposure more or less right". For me it's about exposing for the specific area or light that you want to, and this is where a OVF with no info falls shorts. Of course, I'd probably be happy to use such a setup for some shooting, just not all.



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:23 AM
ricardovaste
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p.8 #4 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


douglasf13 wrote:
http://farm8.staticflickr.com/7445/9169438152_93f0583c42_z.jpg
(sorry for the poor cell phone pic)


Can I ask what tape you're using? I've always just used electric tape, but I kind of worry what effects it might have on the pain/finish over time.



Jul 03, 2013 at 09:24 AM
douglasf13
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p.8 #5 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


That is Hasselblad (fake) leather from cameraleather.com. I bought a sheet of it several years ago, and it is really handy.

As far as metering with the OVF is concerned, the camera is just so good at metering that I don't really worry about spot metering areas like I would with some cameras, and the files are so pliable that, even if the metering is a little off, it rarely makes a difference when adjusting in the raw converter. One of the important points is to de-link the metering from the shutter button.

Either way, you can always easily check on the camera LCD, if need be, and your exposure settings are quickly available there, too. I know it all sounds a little convoluted, and I didn't expect it to work that well, but I like using the OVF.



Jul 03, 2013 at 01:15 PM
snapsy
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p.8 #6 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Livestream with Sony technical manager about the RX1R and RX100 II:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ilhHiQgHZzg



Jul 03, 2013 at 03:02 PM
sebboh
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p.8 #7 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


ricardovaste wrote:
That's actually not the concern for me, and I'm very happy with my Sony DSLR's for metering. It's not about simply getting an "even/average exposure more or less right". For me it's about exposing for the specific area or light that you want to, and this is where a OVF with no info falls shorts. Of course, I'd probably be happy to use such a setup for some shooting, just not all.


ah, i wouldn't worry about that. metering is so consistant once you get used to how it meters it becomes easy to adjust exposure compensation for whatever area of the frame you want. no real need for a spot reading. of course things are even easier if you use the evf since you see the exposure.



Jul 03, 2013 at 04:07 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #8 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


I do find I use EC less of the time and a lesser amount with the RX1 than the a99, which is also very good. WB is also better. The RX1 is very reliable but if in doubt the histo is your best friend. The press of a button in Display mode away, you can set it up this way.

The EVF (if you use one) gives very good pre-shot feedback on the likely rendering of any image object *especially bokeh*, remember you are looking directly at a live sensor feed a centimetre or two in front of you pupil, the image is large, bright and clear.

Finally, I use a short duration image review to check for blinks and sundry bugger ups - the review can be interrupted by a soft press of the shutter button to return to shoot mode - to check I got what I wanted.

For shutter speeds, I agree with millsart that the RX1 really needs higher s/s than expected if you have no post or solid support to lean on. I feel uncomfortable longer than 1/100s but can push with care to 1/50s. With support 1/15-1/10s.

You end up with a balancing act between ISO and s/s, 1/50s at ISO 3200 or 1/100s at ISO 6400...it is truly excellent at ISO 3200-4000, then declines quite gradually thereafter. I have usable images at ISO 12800, they need some work though.



Jul 05, 2013 at 01:21 PM
philip_pj
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p.8 #9 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Funny stories re camera size, Ron.

You might just love the swivel LCDs on the Sony DSLRs, accurate framing looking the other way is possible easily, it looks like you are checking the settings but the lens faces the subjects. You can even brace the body/lens against the strap as you set up, for a slower s/s.




Jul 05, 2013 at 01:28 PM
rodizzle33
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p.8 #10 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Man I just ordered a used Sony RX1, but the review on Steve Huff's website on the Sony RX1R is nothing short of stunning. I haven't even received the camera and I might regret it already!!!


http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/07/08/the-sony-rx1r-review-medium-format-quality-in-your-pocket-almost/



Jul 09, 2013 at 02:10 AM
 

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snapsy
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p.8 #11 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


rodizzle33 wrote:
Man I just ordered a used Sony RX1, but the review on Steve Huff's website on the Sony RX1R is nothing short of stunning. I haven't even received the camera and I might regret it already!!!

http://www.stevehuffphoto.com/2013/07/08/the-sony-rx1r-review-medium-format-quality-in-your-pocket-almost/


For one of the review images he writes "Click the image below for the FULL size from RAW file. I never saw this kind of detail, at this level, from my RX1."

That might be because the detail is not actually there and is just aliasing 24MP on a FF sensor seems a bit light to forgo the AA.



Jul 09, 2013 at 02:16 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.8 #12 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


snapsy wrote:
For one of the review images he writes "Click the image below for the FULL size from RAW file. I never saw this kind of detail, at this level, from my RX1."

That might be because the detail is not actually there and is just aliasing 24MP on a FF sensor seems a bit light to forgo the AA.


Agree. I downloaded the full size cabbage image because, to my eyes, something just looked artificial/ digital about it even at the reduced web size. I quickly found out why in the full size image...
100% crop below:






One of the things I like about the RX1 is that the images that come out of it have an almost organic, natural look to them (smooth contrast transitions, not harsh in any way). The RX1R appears to give up a little bit of that with what looks to be a harder contrast overall and unnatural appearance to edges. Part of this might be down to the Huffmaster's processing, I don't know. I do know that if one desires to push an RX1 image, it will take a LOT of sharpening and contrast manipulation.

Imaging Resource has some full size RX1 vs RX1R images that purport to show the superiority of the RX1R with regard to fine detail, particularly with landscapes. I suggest anyone interested in the difference download both and apply sharpening (ACR/ LIghtroom) at the below settings (which I originally saw in Tim Ashley's review) to the RX1 image and then compare.

Amount: 60
Radius: 0.7
Detail: 70
Masking:20






Jul 09, 2013 at 04:28 AM
philip_pj
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p.8 #13 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


I use these settings Tariq and agree completely with your RX1 comments, and who needs an extra 1% or so in any case for what most will surely use as a hand camera?

The sensor/lens really rewards this kind of sharpening, so thanks to Tim as well as yourself. I use an a99 but this camera is just in another league in terms of what you can do and still retain an excellent 'photographic' image, surely much more significant than the extra bit of resolution.



Jul 09, 2013 at 04:41 AM
sebboh
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p.8 #14 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Agree. I downloaded the full size cabbage image because, to my eyes, something just looked artificial/ digital about it even at the reduced web size. I quickly found out why in the full size image...
100% crop below:


hmm, looks kinda motion blurred to me.

honestly, the only advantage i see in the R version is that local contrast seems slightly higher and you can apply slightly less general sharpening to images which means oof and noisy areas will look better.

if it turns out the lack of AA filter noticeably improves corner performance that could be big, but it's not like corner performance isn't pretty da** good already with the regular version.



Jul 09, 2013 at 04:54 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.8 #15 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


sebboh wrote:
hmm, looks kinda motion blurred to me.


I'm seeing a little zipper/ jaggie aliasing on the edge which looks as though some sort of software correction is trying to cover up. This becomes more apparent if slightly magnified/ enlarged, as does what looks like some harsher color and tonal transitions around this area of the curved edge.

Local contrast enhancements to the nth degree have really become easy in post production (Topaz Clarity) and even raw conversion (Photo Ninja/ Detail) if one likes that look imo.

Once that line is crossed where the default out of camera rendering starts showing aliasing and harder contrast, it's more difficult to go backwards (remove the aliasing via software for instance) than it is to get closer to the other benefits of having no AA filter (contrast and sharpness) via processing. This is particularly true when the AA filter is very weak to begin with, as it is in the RX1.



Jul 09, 2013 at 12:43 PM
sebboh
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p.8 #16 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I'm seeing a little zipper/ jaggie aliasing on the edge which looks as though some sort of software correction is trying to cover up. This becomes more apparent if slightly magnified/ enlarged, as does what looks like some harsher color and tonal transitions around this area of the curved edge.

Local contrast enhancements to the nth degree have really become easy in post production (Topaz Clarity) and even raw conversion (Photo Ninja/ Detail) if one likes that look imo.

Once that line is crossed where the default out of camera rendering starts showing aliasing and harder contrast, it's more difficult
...Show more

oh i see the zippers, i'm just not sure whether that is due to jpeggyness or lack of AA filter. i really don't think it's a great image to look for artifacts or sharpness though because it is mostly oof and there do appear to be stretched blurs due to motion blur.

regarding local enhancements, i've never seen anything that can produce a similar look without extensive and time consuming pp and it usually looks noticeable and worse.

in any event, i would probably have gottent the R version if i could find it for the same price of a used rx-1, but i doubt i'll feel any compunction to upgrade.




Jul 09, 2013 at 03:39 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.8 #17 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


I sort of doubt it's motion blur at 1/250 sec. Since it was also at F2, that edge appears to be in the plane of focus and everywhere else simply shows the bokeh effect of the lens. I'm also sure the lens is slightly sharper at 2.8 and 4 so that zipper effect could likely be even worse in other images.

If you haven't tried the two local contrast enhancement solutions I mentioned, you might be surprised by the easily obtained results.



Jul 09, 2013 at 04:16 PM
sebboh
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p.8 #18 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Tariq Gibran wrote:
I sort of doubt it's motion blur at 1/250 sec. Since it was also at F2, that edge appears to be in the plane of focus and everywhere else simply shows the bokeh effect of the lens. I'm also sure the lens is slightly sharper at 2.8 and 4 so that zipper effect could likely be even worse in other images.

If you haven't tried the two local contrast enhancement solutions I mentioned, you might be surprised by the easily obtained results.


yeah, i finally looked at the full image. not motion blur (though i've seen that at a lot faster than 1/250), just an oddity of the focus transition.

without the AA filter you're guaranteed to have some artifacts, just look at a test chart near the nyquist. i don't think i'm seeing anything terribly egregious though, i think the jpeg conversion is bothering me more than anything in that image. i'm not seeing anything that really makes me want to upgrade either. i'd love to see a few more 1:1 comparisons though.

regarding local adjustment software, i've not played with them (don't really view it as something i would use much). most of the examples i've seen look overdone, but i'm sure that is mostly a matter of user settings.



Jul 09, 2013 at 06:20 PM
ricardovaste
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p.8 #19 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


God I hate it when people start calling cameras 'medium format quality'. Or maybe I'm too easily annoyed


Jul 09, 2013 at 06:48 PM
Jonas B
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p.8 #20 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


ricardovaste wrote:
God I hate it when people start calling cameras 'medium format quality'. Or maybe I'm too easily annoyed

If Steve Huff makes you upset you are too easily annoyed. Yes.



Jul 09, 2013 at 06:50 PM
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