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Archive 2013 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter
  
 
millsart
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p.13 #1 · p.13 #1 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


I'd say for the same $700 or so that it would cost to sell the RX1 and then rebuy the new RX1r, you could just stick with the RX1 and add on a Sigma Merrill if you have a want/need for super resolution on distant landscape detail.


Jul 30, 2013 at 02:58 PM
fredmirandafan
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p.13 #2 · p.13 #2 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Hi guys, discovered this thread when Tariq referenced it in the regular RX1 thread.

In thinking about DXO's recent report of RX1R having less DR, I wonder if anyone knows what their methodology is?

So I went over images from my recently acquired RX1R and the sample images from Imaging Resource, they all seem to share a kind of "harsh highlight" look. At first my reaction was "too contrasty" and "details blown" but after zooming in, a lot of the "harsh" look is actually attributed to the "micro-contrast" and fine gradations of tonal values within very small regions!

I am sure DXO didn't just "eye-ball" like I did, but I can't help but to wonder how much of this "harsher look or apparent loss of highlight gradation" is actually an artifact of increased micro-contrast?



Aug 25, 2013 at 10:42 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #3 · p.13 #3 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Here is how DxO measures DR:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/About/In-depth-measurements/DxOMark-testing-protocols/Noise-dynamic-range

Overall measured DR of the camera would be associated more with overall Macro contrast, not local/Micro contrast I think?



Aug 25, 2013 at 12:25 PM
fredmirandafan
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p.13 #4 · p.13 #4 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Tariq Gibran wrote:
Here is how DxO measures DR:
http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/About/In-depth-measurements/DxOMark-testing-protocols/Noise-dynamic-range

Thanks for the link, it's an interesting read but parts of it sound like jibberish to me

Overall, they sound really methodical and controlled in testing but somehow I wonder if their testing methods are universally accepted -- I remember reading something about how they are testing only a subset of sensor characteristics without actually taking into account perceptual quality.



Aug 25, 2013 at 06:32 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #5 · p.13 #5 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


fredmirandafan wrote:
Thanks for the link, it's an interesting read but parts of it sound like jibberish to me

Overall, they sound really methodical and controlled in testing but somehow I wonder if their testing methods are universally accepted -- I remember reading something about how they are testing only a subset of sensor characteristics without actually taking into account perceptual quality.


The final total sensor rating is based on perceptual quality (or what I believe you are referring to when using "perceptual" above). Here is more on the DxO scores:

http://www.dxomark.com/index.php/About/Sensor-scores/Sensor-Score-Essentials

"Sensor Overall Score is normalized for a defined printing scenario—8Mpix printed on 8"x12" (20cmx30cm) at 300dpi resolution. Any other normalization, even at a higher resolution, would lead to the same ranking, given that any camera that could not deliver the chosen resolution would be eliminated from the comparison."





Aug 25, 2013 at 07:38 PM
RustyBug
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p.13 #6 · p.13 #6 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Skipped some of the dialogue for a while .. but, the issue of distant detail:

Isn't that going to be attributed to what distance the lens was optimized for vs. not for. It would seem that a single, general purpose lens is going to be optimized for mid-range distances more so than distant landscapes. Attributing the loss of distant detail to the sensor (instead of the lens) may be missing the mark at where the real culprit for soft distances is. People are quick to jump at the user when they use a lens @ mfd and say it is soft ... readily recognizing that the (non-macro) lens may not have been optimized for that distance. Same goes for portrait/street range (which I would expect the Sony to be optimized for) may not be optimized for infinty nor mfd.

Also, makes me wonder why some folks complain @ Fuji's new sensor array and some don't ... hmmm at which glass @ which distance vs. the sensor @ culprit.

Case in point ... my C/Y 80-200 (@ 150mm) performs better @ mfd and distance than my M645 150/2.8 A. But at portrait distances, the M645 150/2.8 A trumps the 80-200. It would seem the 80-200 was designed for broader usage, with the 150 A designed to mildly compromise near and far distances in order to excel at portrait range. Where did Sony put the distance optimization ... ... but I'm banking it wasn't at infinity or mfd.

We test lenses at apertures ad infinitum, but rarely do we give much credence to the distance a lens was optimized for, except when DXO shows a Zeiss tested poorly.

Edited on Aug 25, 2013 at 08:35 PM · View previous versions



Aug 25, 2013 at 08:17 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #7 · p.13 #7 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


There is not an issue with distant detail and the RX1 (and certainly not with the lens) when an image is processed appropriately. With the RX1, more sharpening would be needed to overcome the light AA filter but it's really very subjective as to how much one prefers.

The Fuji issue is an entirely different animal (and not lens related) as distant fine detail is obliterated in some cases by the artifacts introduced through Fuji's wacky color interpolation scheme.



Aug 25, 2013 at 08:33 PM
Jochenb
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p.13 #8 · p.13 #8 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


RustyBug wrote:
Skipped some of the dialogue for a while .. but, the issue of distant detail


Again, there's no issue.

Member ebookman posted a crop recently which once again shows that there's no issue at all:
Link



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:07 PM
redisburning
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p.13 #9 · p.13 #9 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Jochenb wrote:
Again, there's no issue.


I think you're overstating things.

YOU don't think there's an issues. Others may, and do.



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:15 PM
Jochenb
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p.13 #10 · p.13 #10 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


redisburning wrote:
I think you're overstating things.

YOU don't think there's an issues. Others may, and do.


Well if those results are now "issues" I'm very happy I'm not one of those EXTREME pixelpeepers.

BTW, it's only the people that don't own the camera that spread this nonsense.



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:18 PM
 

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snapsy
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p.13 #11 · p.13 #11 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


RustyBug wrote:
We test lenses at apertures ad infinitum, but rarely do we give much credence to the distance a lens was optimized for, except when DXO shows a Zeiss tested poorly.


This is an excellent point and is why some are disappointed with the performance of a lens that reviewed well. A good example is be the original Nikon 200-400mm, which performs well at middle distances but noticeably worse at infinity.



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:24 PM
redisburning
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p.13 #12 · p.13 #12 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Jochenb wrote:
BTW, it's only the people that don't own the camera that spread this nonsense.


that is not 100% relevant. just as you don't have to be Salgado to judge a photo contest anyone can go and procure untouched RAWs at various distances and compare for themselves. you won't catch me doing it, but that would be valid IMO.



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:25 PM
Jochenb
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p.13 #13 · p.13 #13 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


A random 100% crop of one of my photos, at infinity:


So now this kind of performance isn't good enough? Even calling it "an issue"...



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:36 PM
redisburning
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p.13 #14 · p.13 #14 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


you're missing the point.

your incredulity that someone may find your posted example weak relative to other ranges does not change the fact that someone may, in actuality, find it so.

crops are great, btw, but without one under identical conditions except focused closer it's just a point by itself in space. weak is a relative term, and requires two legitimately comparable points of reference to establish.



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:42 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.13 #15 · p.13 #15 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


I was pretty critical and skeptical about the RX1's distant/ infinity capability early on after downloading/ looking at pretty much everything I could find. Tim Ashley's RX1 review was the first where I saw that the RX1perfromed exceptional for a Bayer based sensor at infinity. Soon after I bought an RX1 and saw for myself the distant/ infinity performance was exceptional (superior to any 35mm lens I had used on a 24MP camera previously AND superior to the new Nikon G 28/1.8G as used on my then D800E, though I'm sure a better lens such as the Sigma 35 1.4 might outperform the RX1 on the D800E). My conclusion: the RX1(r) with it's 35lens will outperform or equal any other 24MP bayer based FF camera with any currently available 35mm lens. It extracts everything possible from the sensor.


Aug 25, 2013 at 09:42 PM
Jochenb
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p.13 #16 · p.13 #16 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


redisburning wrote:
you're missing the point.

your incredulity that someone may find your posted example weak relative to other ranges does not change the fact that someone may, in actuality, find it so.

crops are great, btw, but without one under identical conditions except focused closer it's just a point by itself in space. weak is a relative term, and requires two legitimately comparable points of reference to establish.


I just don't agree with your "point", because it's not relevant in the end.
If a lens for example has peak performance at closeup ranges, but is still absolutely excellent at infinity it's just plain funny to see people call it an issue. Measurebation to the extreme.



Aug 25, 2013 at 09:51 PM
jojomon11
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p.13 #17 · p.13 #17 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


millsart wrote:
I'd say for the same $700 or so that it would cost to sell the RX1 and then rebuy the new RX1r, you could just stick with the RX1 and add on a Sigma Merrill if you have a want/need for super resolution on distant landscape detail.


Totally agree I have both and am fine with it



Aug 25, 2013 at 10:06 PM
sebboh
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p.13 #18 · p.13 #18 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


Jochenb wrote:
I just don't agree with your "point", because it's not relevant in the end.
If a lens for example has peak performance at closeup ranges, but is still absolutely excellent at infinity it's just plain funny to see people call it an issue. Measurebation to the extreme.


yeah, the only issue is that some people don't seem to know how to focus the camera at infinity. earlier in this thread i posted infinity crops going through the aperture range: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1222995/11#11681205

the lens obviously outresolves the sensor at f/2 at infinity with good contrast to boot. i've looked a raws from a lot of 35mm lenses and i don't think there is one that can do better including the leica m-mounts. the 35/2 biogon is probably a little better at infinity and f/5.6 but worse at f/2 and that's with a real AA less sensor to help it out.




Aug 25, 2013 at 10:08 PM
douglasf13
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p.13 #19 · p.13 #19 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


I'd wager that the early impressions of the RX1 performing poorly at infinity are based off of slightly misfocused samples. PDAF can get a little tricky at infinity. There's certainly no Leica 35 that performs better than the RX1 at infinity (or any other distance.) The ZM 35/2 might be a bit better at infinity, but I'd say its pretty close, and the RX1 is much better at wider apertures and up close. There really isn't a better 35/2 overall than the RX1's lens, at least from what I've used.

Edit: weird, sebboh and I just posted nearly the same thing at the same time.



Aug 25, 2013 at 10:09 PM
Jochenb
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p.13 #20 · p.13 #20 · Sony Cyber-shot DSC-RX1R Full Frame with no AA filter


douglasf13 wrote:
I'd wager that the early impressions of the RX1 performing poorly at infinity are based off of slightly misfocused samples.


This and too slow shutter speeds. Many people use it in front of their body, which is much more shaky than pressing a viewfinder to your face. When I use it like this I even have to be careful at 1/80.



Aug 25, 2013 at 10:32 PM
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