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Archive 2013 · D400 in 2014 or Bust
  
 
M Lucca
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p.3 #1 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


So aside from the ergonomics, what does a reasonable D300s upgrade camera could do that the current D7100 can't? Assuming this mythical D400 is out today.

As it is the D7100 has a top flight AF system (same as D800?). A decent 7fps burst. Dual card slots. Better ISO. 24mp.




Jun 25, 2013 at 04:11 PM
Chris Dees
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p.3 #2 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


M Lucca wrote:
So aside from the ergonomics, what does a reasonable D300s upgrade camera could do that the current D7100 can't? Assuming this mythical D400 is out today.

As it is the D7100 has a top flight AF system (same as D800?). A decent 7fps burst. Dual card slots. Better ISO. 24mp.



D800 body, the D7100 body feels like a toy body to me.
Ergonomics, buffer (after about a second the buffer is full). Higher frame rate (D7100 7fps is in 1.3x crop mode).
20Mp with better ISO than the D7100 would be great.
10 pins connector.
There are probably a few more..



Jun 25, 2013 at 05:09 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #3 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


M Lucca wrote:
So aside from the ergonomics, what does a reasonable D300s upgrade camera could do that the current D7100 can't? Assuming this mythical D400 is out today.

As it is the D7100 has a top flight AF system (same as D800?). A decent 7fps burst. Dual card slots. Better ISO. 24mp.




Body build & Ballance with large lenses
Ergonomics
Speed of use (buttom placement is more than just an ergonomic issue)
Frame rate at full DX resolution
10-pin connector
BUFFER SIZE (this one is huge)



Jun 25, 2013 at 06:04 PM
galenapass
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p.3 #4 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


runamuck wrote:
ON a website far far away, and a long long time ago, I predicted that DX would be abandoned when FX sensors became economically feasible, and the market for DX lenses had become saturated. This would then force all those using DX lenses to eventually switch to FX lenses. Gee, I hate to say I told you so, but I did tell you so!


What fantasy world are you living in where you think that you have handed down pearls of wisdom? I had to actually reread this several times because I was incredulous. There is a strong trend right now for smaller sized mirrorless cameras (NEX series, OMD etc...), some of which use 4/3 and some of which use FX sensors. Canon even came out with mirrorless cropper. How does this translate into forcing anyone anywhere such that you can say "I told you so"? There are now more choice than ever for smaller sized sensors.

I guess if you put on blinders and only consider Nikon, but in general, there are more and more crop options available and the performance of the newer smaller sensors is looking really good.

Looking forward to a potential D400 in the offering.



Jun 25, 2013 at 06:18 PM
vivisha
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p.3 #5 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
I don't want to take you out of context, but I do want to focus on this one point.

Nikon and Canon are in the business of selling cameras. They do that best by making killer cameras people want, even at the risk of self canibalization ... better to canibilize yourself than to have the competition do it. The D400 would be just one of those bodies that would sell like crazy, even if it means a loss of some other body sales. The last thing you want is people settling for what they can get ... you get
...Show more

I think you're right that a D400 would sell a lot, but the way both Canon and Nikon separate their entry level, prosumer and flagship cameras is an indication of the way they maximize profits. Canon is less likely to introduce a 7Dll, in part because they're a much bigger company than Nikon is and they don't depend on camera equipment sales the way Nikon do.

You said they make money making killer cameras people WANT. I buy cameras and lenses I WANT, not because I need them. I only use them for my enjoyment and not to make money. Now I don't know the percentage of people out there that do photography as a business and the ones that do it as a hobby like me, then in those groups there are people with different budgets, so, as a business Canon and Nikon are probably more informed than you and I as to what they need to do to make profits selling what they think will sell.

As far as people jumping ship, that has happened before and will happen again, and to me it seems that is good for those companies too, after all, is not like people jump ship and throw their equipment away, they sell it and the new owner of that equipment will most likely buy something for his new system or eventually update it.




Jun 25, 2013 at 06:43 PM
M Lucca
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p.3 #6 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


@Chris Dees & @Andre Labonte

Excluding ergonomics and build, the only real glaring misses are burst depth, fps and better ISO.

Hmm... not sure if the above warrants ~$2000 (based on D300s initial MSRP) for a super D7100.



Jun 25, 2013 at 06:44 PM
runamuck
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p.3 #7 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


So, just where is this mythical beast called the D400? Nikon just came out with its first full frame a few years ago. Price advantages between DX and FX are dropping. THey will never totally disappear, but wilo reach a point where the is no obvious price advantage. More and more it is looking like Nikon wants you to buy FX. Fonecos of course, want you to use a cell phone for all your photo needs. DX is getting caught in the middle and may very lwell die in the next few years as the photography market dries up.

Granted, FMers may be the last to discover this, but look around. The only people I see carrying a DSLR are camera club members and Japanese tourists. Everyone else is using a cell phone for pictures. Even the camera club is being taken over by P&S photos.

Ask the man on the street about pixel-peeping and you get blank stares. AAalk about photo editing and they ask if a cell phone does that. Go ahead, read some of the specs for P&S cams. They even scan the photo to see if someone blinked and warn you to reshoot. Please show me any DSLR that does that.



Jun 25, 2013 at 07:06 PM
Chris Dees
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p.3 #8 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


M Lucca wrote:
@Chris Dees & @Andre Labonte

Excluding ergonomics and build, the only real glaring misses are burst depth, fps and better ISO.

Hmm... not sure if the above warrants ~$2000 (based on D300s initial MSRP) for a super D7100.


For me it's what I'm looking for.
As always the price will come down after a few months.



Jun 25, 2013 at 07:29 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #9 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


M Lucca wrote:
@Chris Dees & @Andre Labonte

Excluding ergonomics and build, the only real glaring misses are burst depth, fps and better ISO.

Hmm... not sure if the above warrants ~$2000 (based on D300s initial MSRP) for a super D7100.



The original MSRP of the D300 was $1800. The D7100 is $1200. For an extra $600 to get better:

1) buffer size
2) FPS
3) ISO performance
4) Ergonomics, which includes:
a) better ballance
b) better comfort due to larger size
c) better function access due to better button layout and more available buttons
5) Better build quality & ballance
6) a 10-pin connector

It is a great deal! I would gladly pay an extra $100 for each of those items ... wow, that adds to $600.




Jun 26, 2013 at 12:55 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #10 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


vivisha wrote:
I think you're right that a D400 would sell a lot, but the way both Canon and Nikon separate their entry level, prosumer and flagship cameras is an indication of the way they maximize profits. Canon is less likely to introduce a 7Dll, in part because they're a much bigger company than Nikon is and they don't depend on camera equipment sales the way Nikon do.

You said they make money making killer cameras people WANT. I buy cameras and lenses I WANT, not because I need them. I only use them for my enjoyment and not to make money.
...Show more

**************************
You missed the point. It's not about YOU specifically, its about the larger pro-sumer & pro market that wants a DX body with the pro features currently only found in FX bodies (or the long in tooth D300s). Those individuals either have to "up-sell" to FX and all its disadvantages for size, weight and cost, or they have to "settle for less" and get a D7100.

Yes, at its core, my interest in cameras is a hobby. But I, and many like me, want a pro-level DX body. It would sell well and make Nikon more money. Would it canibalize some D7100 and D800 sales ... sure, a few, but far less than what it would generate in new sales. AND, the best part is it would hurt Canon because Canon does not have a similar offering unles they come out with a 7DII.

Many Many people left Canon when the D300 / D3 bodies were announced and more did so when the D800 came out. People with the $$$ to buy these systems and update them regularly will jump ship more easily than you give them credit.



Jun 26, 2013 at 01:01 PM
 

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Andre Labonte
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p.3 #11 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


runamuck wrote:
So, just where is this mythical beast called the D400? Nikon just came out with its first full frame a few years ago. Price advantages between DX and FX are dropping. THey will never totally disappear, but wilo reach a point where the is no obvious price advantage. More and more it is looking like Nikon wants you to buy FX. Fonecos of course, want you to use a cell phone for all your photo needs. DX is getting caught in the middle and may very lwell die in the next few years as the photography market dries up.

Granted, FMers
...Show more


And until the DX to FX price gap closes even more, there is a good market for a pro-level DX body.

And for creative work and sports I don't see a cell phone camera cutting it ... a D400 is not for snapshots, it's for more interesting venues.



Jun 26, 2013 at 01:04 PM
carlitos
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p.3 #12 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


How about Zeiss Touit lenses for a D400 (or pro-level DX body).

Probably already in the pipeline.




Jun 26, 2013 at 04:43 PM
wellsjt
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p.3 #13 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


runamuck wrote:
DX is getting caught in the middle and may very lwell die in the next few years as the photography market dries up.

Granted, FMers may be the last to discover this, but look around. The only people I see carrying a DSLR are camera club members and Japanese tourists.


Actually, I see the opposite. I see more and more people with DSLRs. Step into a Costco today and look at all the APS-C DSLRs piled high. Someone is buying them if Costco is selling them like that. You will stop seeing them in the club stores and mass merchandisers for a sustained period of time before you start witnessing a big reduction of them out in the wild.

The shift that I've seen is a reduction in knowledge in using a DSLR. As in, the average DSLR user today seems to know less about how to use it well compared with the average DSLR user of, say 8 years ago. Today, you see a lot of D3000 (and similar) users with the 18-55 that came with it and that's it. They've got it set to green auto mode, and off they go. If you go back in time to the days of the D50, D200, etc. I would say the general user at the time had more knowledge and interest, probably owned a couple or three lenses, etc.

When the D7100 came out, to me that signaled that there would likely be a D300s replacement, because the D7100 is not it.



Jun 26, 2013 at 05:14 PM
Fingerstyle78
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p.3 #14 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Personally $2K for a AP-C camera is just too much for me. You can get a refurbed D800 for $2350 and have the option to shoot in crop mode at 1.2x/25MP/6FPS or 1.5x/15.6MP/6FPS (I'm not 100% on these frame rates). Both of which speeds your buffer as well.

The biggest reason I got away from DX was because the lineup of serious lenses was pretty thin for my needs. If you shoot birds- FX glass on DX is great. If you are into landscape, you don't want to be stuck in DX. That's why they have the FX/DX option on the D600, D700 and the D800 I suppose. My Samyang 14mm did alright on on my D7000, but the FX format really takes the blinders off and takes full advantage of that lens. I have the D600, my GF has the D800. Basically the D400 would be the D800 without FX. For the extra 300 bucks (on a refurbished D800) over the hypothetical D400 I'd rather have FX capability as well. Just my two cents.




Jun 27, 2013 at 09:40 AM
Frogfish
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p.3 #15 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


runamuck wroteFMers may be the last to discover this, but look around. The only people I see carrying a DSLR are camera club members and Japanese tourists. Everyone else is using a cell phone for pictures. Even the camera club is being taken over by P&S photos.

You are missing two points that to me, living in Asia, is blindingly obvious, but maybe not so much to people living in the 'West'. What camera phones can do is irrelevant when considering what they can't do.

1. There is a massive increase in the personal wealth of large sections of the populations of certain Asian countries, China & India (the two most populous nations on Earth) in particular. Camera malls have grown in numbers, size and quality and there is no sign of this abating.
Asians are by nature less camera-shy and gregarious than Euro-Americans (to literally translate a popular Chinese term for Westerners). The money is there and most Chinese (and probably Indians) are less inclined to other hobbies than photography (now that digital has arrived and made photography far more accessible to the masses) and they certainly have the money for the best cameras & lenses.

2. The increase in the numbers of people using mobile phones as their P&S cameras can only be good for the DSLR/Mirrorless markets in general, as those wanting more flexibility, higher IQ and more speed & reach will inevitably look to cameras & lenses that can deliver that as well as appealing to the artistic nature restrained until now in many people. Exactly as happened in Western countries.

Since the personal wealth growth of Asia is forecast to continue developing and surpass that of Europe and the USA I can see no reason whatsoever for any long-term decline in the DSLR market. On the contrary DSLR manufacturers will start (if they haven't already) designing their cameras / lenses to match the needs of the Asian market (more in tandem with Japanese tastes than those of Euro-Americans).

I will go as far as to say this will eventually also dictate pricing, with cars a good example. Car prices here are typically twice those of the identical car in the USA and a substantial increase on European pricing. Cameras are currently between the two (Euro & USA) but seem to be trending upwards.


Edited on Jun 27, 2013 at 10:26 AM · View previous versions



Jun 27, 2013 at 10:21 AM
LMT1972
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p.3 #16 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Supposed August release and yet no serious rumours or leaks on specs which we have seen 2-3 months out with nearly every other major DSLR release from Nikon in recent memory. Thom thinks it's "inevitable" and so did I 6 months ago but not so sure now. Hopefully Nikon is proactive and not reactive on a pro crop body for the masses. If it does materialise it should certainly be a killer bit of kit and hopefully I live long enough to get my arthritic hands one

Cheers
Leigh



Jun 27, 2013 at 10:23 AM
the solitaire
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p.3 #17 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


M Lucca wrote:
@Chris Dees & @Andre Labonte

Excluding ergonomics and build, the only real glaring misses are burst depth, fps and better ISO.

Hmm... not sure if the above warrants ~$2000 (based on D300s initial MSRP) for a super D7100.


To me button placement alone warrants a $1000 price difference.

No, I will never buy a D7000/D7100 regardless of how much better image quality is over a D300 because it misses buttons or has them in the wrong place.

I donīt see why you would want to exclude ergonomics in this picture?



Jun 27, 2013 at 10:34 AM
Frogfish
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p.3 #18 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Fingerstyle78 wrote:
Personally $2K for a AP-C camera is just too much for me. You can get a refurbed D800 for $2350 and have the option to shoot in crop mode at 1.2x/25MP/6FPS or 1.5x/15.6MP/6FPS (I'm not 100% on these frame rates). Both of which speeds your buffer as well.

The biggest reason I got away from DX was because the lineup of serious lenses was pretty thin for my needs. If you shoot birds- FX glass on DX is great. If you are into landscape, you don't want to be stuck in DX. That's why they have the FX/DX option on
...Show more

The x1.2 fps is 5.5fps.

I think for the D400 you have to look at sport shooters and birders. The most popular camera at present for those activities is either the D3s or D4, both far too expense for the majority of people. The D7100 doesn't cut it with that frame rate and especially the buffer - unless Nikon plan on bringing out a 'GT' version !

So in effect what I'm saying is there is a huge hole where an affordable sports/birding camera should be (I use the D800E for birding and don't find it restrictive at all for birding but remember that the effective pixels on subject at x1.5 is roughly the same as a 16MP sensor, not 24MP).

If Nikon were to bring out this fabled D400 (say 8-9fps, deep buffer, AF-on button, 24MP and other missing pro specs from the D7100) I'd be all over it and sell my backup D600 in an instant).


Edited on Jun 27, 2013 at 06:58 PM · View previous versions



Jun 27, 2013 at 10:38 AM
butchM
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p.3 #19 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
The original MSRP of the D300 was $1800. The D7100 is $1200. For an extra $600 to get better:

1) buffer size
2) FPS
3) ISO performance
4) Ergonomics, which includes:
a) better ballance
b) better comfort due to larger size
c) better function access due to better button layout and more available buttons
5) Better build quality & ballance
6) a 10-pin connector

It is a great deal! I would gladly pay an extra $100 for each of those items ... wow, that adds to $600.



Don't forget a dedicated AF-on button ...

I've been rocking a pair of D300 and a pair of D300s bodies for quite some time. They have been the best performing Nikon bodies I have ever used ... and my first Nikon body was a Nikon FM circa 1975 ...

So far, none of my D300 series bodies have ever required service of any kind (knocking heavily on wood) ... considering as a group of four cameras they have a combined shutter clicks fast approaching 500,000 ...

I woud gladly replace these units with a D400 body with similar capabilities before I would replace them with a D7100 ... or a D800 ... Judging by my travels on sporting sidelines, baselines and dugouts ... I'm not the only journalist/sports shooter that is a fan of the D300/D300s ... even many folks that use D3/D4 as their main body, also use D300's as second body, backups and remote cameras rather than multiples of more expensive models ... so there is a market for a new iteration.

Frankly, I don't need 24MP (or more) resolution ... the vast majority of my work is geared for newsprint, the web and prints 16x20 or smaller (emphasis on smaller) ... all those extra pixels just tie up the buffer and fill memory cards prematurely ... similarly, buying an FX body to use in crop mode most of the time just doesn't seem the most efficient method to get things done ... I need durability, performance and compatibility with legacy accessories more than I need to save a few bucks ...

For now, if I should find the need to replace a body in the absence of a D400 introduction, I would be much more inclined to purchase another D300s (only $1,600 from B&H new) than to buy a D7100 and sacrifice performance. Not that I think the D7100 camera isn't a good body in many other respects.



Jun 27, 2013 at 02:43 PM
Next39
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p.3 #20 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


butchM wrote:
Don't forget a dedicated AF-on button ...


I agree with a dedicated AF-ON button, as well as a 10 pin connector and a deep buffer that allows me to shoot the big play AND the jube shots that follow. I just can't believe that the 7100 is the be all/end all to DX from Nikon as it's crippled in my opinion.



Jun 27, 2013 at 02:56 PM
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