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D400 in 2014 or Bust
  
 
M635_Guy
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p.20 #1 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


rickde wrote:
Personally, I am not ready to abandon Nikon over the lack of a D400.


Me either. Frankly ,it has allowed me to focus on glass. Now I have a kit I'm very happy with, and I'll keep shooting my D300s for a good long time Honestly, the more I shoot it the more I love it.



Sep 17, 2013 at 01:50 AM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.20 #2 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


I tried the Olympus E-M1 today, and I can't see many reasons why Nikon should launch a D400 anymore. The optical viewfinder would be an advantage sometimes, as has already been discussed, but the Olympus offers close to D4 performance and build quality in a camera that weighs less than 500 grams. Ergonomics are second to none, and with the vertical grip, I wouldn't hesitate to mount large, heavy telephoto lenses. I consider strongly buying the Zuiko 150mm f/2.0. I've already paid a deposit on the camera body and will receive it in a couple of weeks.

Although this isn't really Nikon related, it shows one reason why traditional DSLRs will struggle to survive in the future. It's not because DSLRs are obsolete as such, but because a mirrorless camera like the Olympus can offer more, for a lower price in a smaller, lighter package. Nikon would really have to come up with something special to fight this. Nothing in the past except the 1 system suggest that a revolution will happen.



Sep 18, 2013 at 08:35 AM
VinnieJ
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p.20 #3 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
I tried the Olympus E-M1 today, and I can't see many reasons why Nikon should launch a D400 anymore. The optical viewfinder would be an advantage sometimes, as has already been discussed, but the Olympus offers close to D4 performance and build quality in a camera that weighs less than 500 grams. Ergonomics are second to none, and with the vertical grip, I wouldn't hesitate to mount large, heavy telephoto lenses. I consider strongly buying the Zuiko 150mm f/2.0. I've already paid a deposit on the camera body and will receive it in a couple of weeks.

Although this isn't
...Show more


We'll see how far into the future. For now the mirrorless market is struggling especially in the US.



Sep 18, 2013 at 09:24 AM
Mishu01
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p.20 #4 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


VinnieJ wrote:
We'll see how far into the future. For now the mirrorless market is struggling especially in the US.


Right! E-M1 is a very sexy camera and I can see myself using something like that for street & travel... but never for any pro work. Not only the IQ is important in this equation. Anyhow I think Olympus will have a serious slice from the mirorless market... and this is because they were adventurous opening this path. IMHO Nikon is doing a mistake persisting with "1" and not offering something like E-M1 alongside with its DSLR lineup.




Sep 18, 2013 at 10:34 AM
thedruid
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p.20 #5 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


I have traveled quite a bit this year and been to many social events on the streets, 99% of the cameras I saw were DSLR's...not one person who is considering a better camera and asked for advice has mentioned mirrorless, when I bring it up they know nothing of it. So who is buying mirrorless, mostly people like us here but not the general public?


Sep 18, 2013 at 11:47 AM
VinnieJ
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p.20 #6 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


The general public still uses their phones. Those who don't have a low-end DSLR or p&s. Not many would choose a mirrorless camera in the $1K price range. That would be reserved for enthusiasts and pros.


Sep 18, 2013 at 12:13 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.20 #7 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
I tried the Olympus E-M1 today, and I can't see many reasons why Nikon should launch a D400 anymore. The optical viewfinder would be an advantage sometimes, as has already been discussed, but the Olympus offers close to D4 performance and build quality in a camera that weighs less than 500 grams. Ergonomics are second to none, and with the vertical grip, I wouldn't hesitate to mount large, heavy telephoto lenses. I consider strongly buying the Zuiko 150mm f/2.0. I've already paid a deposit on the camera body and will receive it in a couple of weeks.

Although this isn't
...Show more

*****************************************

You are assuming that the D400 is a DSLR ... there is no reason it can't be a mirrorless DX camera with a DX sensor andF-mount so that it works seamlessly with all the current lenses. I would welcome such a change provided the EVF is fast & accurate.

Said another way, there is no reason why going mirrorless requires a change in format or mount. Again, the only two things holding back mirrorless are:

1) EVF implementation to date
2) The fact that one has not been made to work seamlessly (without adapter) with the current DSLR lens line-up.




Sep 18, 2013 at 12:14 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.20 #8 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Mishu01 wrote:
... IMHO Nikon is doing a mistake persisting with "1" and not offering something like E-M1 alongside with its DSLR lineup.

****************************************************

I still maintain that the #1 problem with the Nikon 1 system is that it is over-priced. The V2 is a pretty capable and SLR-like body ... yea there are some things that can be improved ... but it's the price that is killing that camera, not the capability.



Sep 18, 2013 at 12:17 PM
binary visions
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p.20 #9 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


thedruid wrote:
I have traveled quite a bit this year and been to many social events on the streets, 99% of the cameras I saw were DSLR's...not one person who is considering a better camera and asked for advice has mentioned mirrorless, when I bring it up they know nothing of it. So who is buying mirrorless, mostly people like us here but not the general public?


I keep recommending mirrorless to friends and family who are interested in an upgrade from a P&S. The Nikon 1 series offers a substantial upgrade in image quality and autofocus without a big hit in size or weight. But you're right - I rarely see the mirrorless cameras "in the wild" so to speak, and when I recommend them, it's usually an entirely new topic to them. The Nikon J1 is dirt cheap right now - for $400 you get a full lens range and the camera body:
http://www.bhphotovideo.com/c/product/985047-REG/nikon_27545_1_j1_mirrorless_digital.html

I think the camera manufacturers have done an incredibly poor job of touting the benefits of the mirrorless bodies. They need to be marketing directly to P&S users and demonstrating the substantial upgrade in functionality and quality.

I hadn't really looked at that Olympus E-M1 until today. That's a pretty sexy little camera. It's not convincing me to jump ship but it's a fairly innovative little package - pro build, with top notch ergonomics, sealing, etc. combined with what some manufacturers consider to be "consumer" items like built in wifi. I wish Nikon, Canon, etc. would look at what Sony, Olympus, etc. are doing and take some notes.

DPReview's preview seems to show that the high ISO capabilities of the E-M1 are not too far from the larger-sensored D7100.



Sep 18, 2013 at 12:34 PM
Two23
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p.20 #10 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
I still maintain that the #1 problem with the Nikon 1 system is that it is over-priced. The V2 is a pretty capable and SLR-like body ... yea there are some things that can be improved ... but it's the price that is killing that camera, not the capability.



The main thing I don't like about the V2 is I can't really use a variety of lenses on it, such as my LTM Leica lenses. I would also like to get into the really old (1920s and earlier) cinema lenses. That's not really feasible with the V2.


Kent in SD



Sep 18, 2013 at 12:42 PM
 

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binary visions
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p.20 #11 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
You are assuming that the D400 is a DSLR ... there is no reason it can't be a mirrorless DX camera with a DX sensor andF-mount so that it works seamlessly with all the current lenses. I would welcome such a change provided the EVF is fast & accurate.


I would suggest Nikon is missing the boat if they don't take the opportunity to build a new mount and bundle an adapter for the F-mount with the body. Flange-to-sensor distance on an SLR is a giant waste of space on mirrorless. If you introduce a forward-thinking mount and bundle the adapter, current users have no reason to complain but they aren't continuing to maintain an obsolete requirement.



Sep 18, 2013 at 12:43 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.20 #12 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
You are assuming that the D400 is a DSLR ... there is no reason it can't be a mirrorless DX camera with a DX sensor andF-mount so that it works seamlessly with all the current lenses. I would welcome such a change provided the EVF is fast & accurate.


******************************************************
binary visions wrote:
I would suggest Nikon is missing the boat if they don't take the opportunity to build a new mount and bundle an adapter for the F-mount with the body. Flange-to-sensor distance on an SLR is a giant waste of space on mirrorless. If you introduce a forward-thinking mount and bundle the adapter, current users have no reason to complain but they aren't continuing to maintain an obsolete requirement.

*******************************************************

Ah, now that is an even better idea ... provided the adapter is bundled in an supports all functinality of the camera and lenses without a performance degrade.

Conversely, the space needed for the mirror is only 50% of the size savings ... the prism / VF is the other 50% and as long as the format stays FX or DX, the lenses don't get any smaller ... the size savings is in the body only. But there is a huge cost to Nikon customers with a flange change.



Sep 18, 2013 at 03:13 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.20 #13 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Two23 wrote:
The main thing I don't like about the V2 is I can't really use a variety of lenses on it, such as my LTM Leica lenses. I would also like to get into the really old (1920s and earlier) cinema lenses. That's not really feasible with the V2.

Kent in SD



That's not surprising as the Nikon 1 series is a new camera system all together. It takes time for a system to gain momentum ... and that means lower prices so people will buy it.

You are likely the exception in thinking of using the Nikon 1 with older lenses. The Nikon 1 is targeted to those wanting to upgrade from a P&S for more performance or "downgrade" from an SLR for size reaons.



Sep 18, 2013 at 03:17 PM
brunobarolo
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p.20 #14 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
as long as the format stays FX or DX, the lenses don't get any smaller ... the size savings is in the body only. But there is a huge cost to Nikon customers with a flange change.



No, that isn't so. Especially wide angle, maybe also standard lenses, can be clearly smaller, if you don't have to leave that much room between the lens and the sensor. For example, consider the weight and size of the wide angle zooms for classic 4/3 (DSLR) as opposed to m4/3 (mirrorless):

The Olympus 4/3 lens 7-14mm f4 (for DSLR) is 86.5 x 119.5mm, and it weighs 780g.

OTOH, the Panasonic m4/3 lens 7-14 f4 (for mirrorless) is 70mm x 83mm, and it weighs 300g.

Especially DX wide angle lenses could be much smaller if they could get closer to the sensor. The rather huge flange distance (as compared to say a 16mm DX lens) may be the reason why neither Canon nor Nikon have produced a small DX prime over more than a decade of DX DSLR history.

And it wouldn't take more than a simple adapter that extends the lens to sensor distance, to make today's F mount lenses work on a mirrorless camera with a smaller flange distance.



Sep 18, 2013 at 03:45 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.20 #15 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
You are assuming that the D400 is a DSLR ... there is no reason it can't be a mirrorless DX camera with a DX sensor andF-mount so that it works seamlessly with all the current lenses. I would welcome such a change provided the EVF is fast & accurate.


Important point, and may be the reason why it takes time to develop.

With regards to EVFs, there are still disadvantages, but for most kinds of shooting, the advantages outnumber the disadvantages by a huge margin.

As for image quality as a criteria for using mirrorless professionally, I don't understand the argument. Several tests and real life examples have shown that the difference in image quality between the latest m4/3 sensors and anything south of the D800 (and the Sigma SD1, but that's another discussion) are minimal and mostly not relevant for real life usage. Add to that the IBIS of the E-M1 and lenses with apertures as wide as f/0.95 and the Olympus has and advantage compared most DSLRs. Also, it can shoot 50/40 frames RAW in burst mode, depending on the frame rate (5.5 or 10 fps if I remember correctly). From Nikon, only the D4 can touch that.

What was missing was reliable AF with 4/3 lenses and AF-C with any lens. With that solved, there's really little holding back.

Notable also is that the only current professional bodies from Nikon that can stand up against the E-M1 image quality are the D800 and the D4. The D300s is so far behind that any comparison is pointless.

I don't have anything against Nikon, an I'll keep using it when it's needed or when I need a nostalgic experience, but my most used cameras have been m4/3 for a while already.



Sep 18, 2013 at 04:10 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.20 #16 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


VinnieJ wrote:
We'll see how far into the future. For now the mirrorless market is struggling especially in the US.


That's partly a question of marketing and developing new markets. The US is an old, conservative, saturated market. Most of the world population live in Asia in markets that haven't been developed much until recently. Mirrorless is increasingly popular here, and all the makes seem to sell well. But obviously, Canon and Nikon are very strong brand names and won't give up the technology that they dominate without a fight.

Ten years ago, there were no smartphones and very few digital cameras. Things change. Hopefully Nikon will be there, developing with the change too



Sep 18, 2013 at 04:21 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.20 #17 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


brunobarolo wrote:
No, that isn't so. Especially wide angle, maybe also standard lenses, can be clearly smaller, if you don't have to leave that much room between the lens and the sensor. For example, consider the weight and size of the wide angle zooms for classic 4/3 (DSLR) as opposed to m4/3 (mirrorless):

The Olympus 4/3 lens 7-14mm f4 (for DSLR) is 86.5 x 119.5mm, and it weighs 780g.

OTOH, the Panasonic m4/3 lens 7-14 f4 (for mirrorless) is 70mm x 83mm, and it weighs 300g.

Especially DX wide angle lenses could be much smaller if they could get closer to the sensor. The
...Show more


********************

Knowing what I do about optics, I can assure you that shortening the flange to sensor distance is going to have little impact on the size of the lens ... if anything shortening the distance will increase not decrease the size of the lens... sensor size is the primary factor.

Edit: The two lenses you mention have different optical formulas and that likely has more to do with the size difference than flange distance. Remember that as you disperse light more at the back of the lens, you need a larger rear element. As you shorten the flange-sensor distance, you increase the amount of dispersion you need to do to cover the sensor. This also increases distortion issues.

On the other hand, sensor size is a major reason why a UWA FX lens is generally so much larger than a DX UWA ... unfortunately that comparison is hard to make due to max aperature differences as well as optical formular differences.


Edited on Sep 18, 2013 at 04:44 PM · View previous versions



Sep 18, 2013 at 04:24 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.20 #18 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Jorgen Udvang wrote:
Important point, and may be the reason why it takes time to develop.

With regards to EVFs, there are still disadvantages, but for most kinds of shooting, the advantages outnumber the disadvantages by a huge margin.

As for image quality as a criteria for using mirrorless professionally, I don't understand the argument. Several tests and real life examples have shown that the difference in image quality between the latest m4/3 sensors and anything south of the D800 (and the Sigma SD1, but that's another discussion) are minimal and mostly not relevant for real life usage. Add to that the IBIS of
...Show more

****************************

I think you nailed it on the head. I see mostly advantages to making a mirrorless DX body that uses the current F-mount ... (again, the EVF speed is my only concern) ... it would make for a seamless transition from DSLR to Mirrorless for lots of people whom are heavily invested in Nikon glass.

The big thing I will miss going with an EVF is the DOF button ... though they should be able to make that work with an EVF ... it would take some work.





Sep 18, 2013 at 04:32 PM
Jorgen Udvang
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p.20 #19 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


One important factor making the lenses smaller is the fact that most of the m4/3 lenses aren't physically rectilinear but corrected in software. Another, if comparing to 4/3, is that the 4/3 lenses were (more or less) telecentric, which also tends to make the lenses larger.


Sep 18, 2013 at 05:25 PM
binary visions
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p.20 #20 · D400 in 2014 or Bust


Andre Labonte wrote:
The big thing I will miss going with an EVF is the DOF button ... though they should be able to make that work with an EVF ... it would take some work.


Why would a DOF button need to change at all?

The DOF button just stops down the lens - an EVF could either operate at max aperture or at the currently selected aperture just as easily, and the DOF button function wouldn't change in that case. I would generally think I'd want the EVF to operate in the maximum lens aperture, the same way I want that to be the case in an OVF, even if the EVF can be brightened to compensate. Easier to identify plane of focus that way.



Sep 18, 2013 at 05:47 PM
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