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Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.
  
 
andyjaggy82
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p.2 #1 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


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May 24, 2013 at 02:43 PM
mawz
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p.2 #2 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Chrissearle wrote:
If ease of workflow is more important to you than file quality then stick with Bayer, if file quality is paramount then I haven't found anything better than Foveon. I'll not be swapping my X100 for the s from what I've seen of the files.


Frankly, aside from resolution and per-pixel sharpness I've seen little to impress me from the Foveon sensors in terms of file quality. Decent colour normally, but colour falls apart quickly when challenged and they are inherently lousy in terms of colour accuracy due to the physics of the depth diffusion filtering (Foveon sensors cannot properly differentiate between colours which fall into the edges between two channels as the filtering is inherently insufficiently selective). Poor DR, poor noise performance. Overall IQ is IMHO inferior to my OM-D by a fair amount despite the resolution advantage. Since I don't look at my images at 100% aside from during post, looking good there is of little value (and frankly, you get the same effect from AA-less Bayer, see the M9 which provides lovely 100% viewing)

The Merrill's are a 1-trick pony. Resolution above all. But even then they don't have a huge advantage over Bayer (24MP AA-less Bayer is pretty damned close in resolution to the DP Merrills). If that's what you are looking for, they are a nice choice and far better than the older Foveon-based cameras. But they do not stand up well against modern APS-C sensors the moment you start looking at any criteria aside from resolution.



May 24, 2013 at 02:49 PM
andyjaggy82
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p.2 #3 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


My Merrill cameras have less noise at ISO 100 than my 7D, and that's before sharpening. After the sharpening required to get the 7D files even remotely close to the sharpness of the Merrill files then it's absolutely no contest, The Merrill wins hands down.

Color accuracy. Probably true. I think we all give ourselves far too much credit in thinking we can accurately remember what color looked like in a scene. It's very subjective. Frankly the color from my Merrill cameras looks perfectly fine to me. If you are doing reproduction work and really need spot on color, you are probably right.

You are right though, it is a one trick pony, but for someone who shoots at ISO 100 on a tripod 95% of the time, who want something small and light for hiking/backpacking, it's a one trick pony that fits the bill perfectly for me.




May 24, 2013 at 03:06 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #4 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


I'd be very happy with 12-18MP of Foveon-type resolution.

IF and only IF it also had good color, good low-ISO DR and good high-ISO noise performance. Unfortunately that just isn't going to happen with the current tech. It's not going to happen with this Canon patent either.



May 24, 2013 at 03:09 PM
veroman
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p.2 #5 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


mawz wrote:
... they do not stand up well against modern APS-C sensors the moment you start looking at any criteria aside from resolution.

I think this held true beginning with the SD9, the original Sigma/Foveon. What a mess the moment you begin to push those Foveon images beyond their very narrow range. I remember my first shots with the SD9 at ISO 400. It was like shooting my old Canon 10D at ISO 6400 ... even worse. Since then I've owned 3 of these Foveon-based cams ... giving Sigma the benefit of the doubt ... and found that none of them had kept up with even the most basic improvements in Bayer technology. Yes, at ISO 100 there's something unique and captivating about a Foveon file. But you'd better have nailed the shot in every respect ... or else.
- Steve



May 24, 2013 at 04:46 PM
mawz
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p.2 #6 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


andyjaggy82 wrote:
My Merrill cameras have less noise at ISO 100 than my 7D, and that's before sharpening. After the sharpening required to get the 7D files even remotely close to the sharpness of the Merrill files then it's absolutely no contest, The Merrill wins hands down.


The 7D is not much of a goalpost in terms of IQ. Frankly it's a very nice body crippled by having the lousiest version of a sensor which was frankly mediocre at best and is now long obsolete and a heavy AA filter. Try against something with currently competitive IQ, say the Nikon D7100 (24MP AA-less Toshiba/Nikon) or the K-5 IIs (16MP AA-less Sony) and you will see a very different story.


Color accuracy. Probably true. I think we all give ourselves far too much credit in thinking we can accurately remember what color looked like in a scene. It's very subjective. Frankly the color from my Merrill cameras looks perfectly fine to me. If you are doing reproduction work and really need spot on color, you are probably right.

You are right though, it is a one trick pony, but for someone who shoots at ISO 100 on a tripod 95% of the time, who want something small and light for hiking/backpacking, it's a one trick pony that fits the bill perfectly for
...Show more

The thing is there are other options which deliver superior IQ in comparable or slightly larger packages. The Merrills do not have a significant resolution advantage over the NEX-7, but it offers better colour accuracy and far better DR at ISO 100 (the upcoming NEX-7 update will be AA-less and bring things even closer). And the same goes for both the competing ~28mm APS-C 16MP AA-less compacts (GR and Coolpix A) although the Merrills fair a little better there in resolution advantage. Heck, the OM-D comes reasonably close to those bodies in resolution & handily beats the Merrills in terms of DR (and has better glass to boot. The Merrill lenses are very good. The Oly 12/2, 45/1.8 and the Leica DG 25/1.4 are better).



May 24, 2013 at 05:19 PM
veroman
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p.2 #7 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


mawz wrote:
... The 7D is not much of a goalpost in terms of IQ. Frankly it's a very nice body crippled by having the lousiest version of a sensor which was frankly mediocre at best and is now long obsolete and a heavy AA filter. Try against something with currently competitive IQ, say the Nikon D7100 (24MP AA-less Toshiba/Nikon) or the K-5 IIs (16MP AA-less Sony) and you will see a very different story.

+1



May 24, 2013 at 10:57 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #8 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


One trick ponys can be very good. Especially if your needs are well met by that specific trick...
Look at medium format - it's slow, it's large, it's heavy. They're mostly a mess from an ergonomic PoV. But it does low-ISO high micro-contrast imaging at high resolutions very well - so those that need those specific tricks are well served, even though they're pretty crap if you try to use them as "general usage cameras". Believe me, I really did try.

But the patent in question here was rather uninteresting, and it didn't bring us any closer to the ultimate goal of Foveon-like per pixel sharpness combined with the things blatantly missing from Foveon right now - good low-light performance, low read noise and good (+accurate) color performance.



May 25, 2013 at 02:15 AM
magiclight
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p.2 #9 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


The fuji 'watercolor" effect ... is this with raw images too ?

I see it in jpegs however some say this is because the default noise reduction is far to high.



May 25, 2013 at 11:35 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #10 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


magiclight wrote:
The fuji 'watercolor" effect ... is this with raw images too ?

I see it in jpegs however some say this is because the default noise reduction is far to high.


It depends on the converter, but every converter that I've seen has some kind of issue with files in certain problem areas, whether it be watercoloring, color bleeding, zipper artifacts, chroma artifacts, strange little white dots, etc. of course, it depends on output size.



May 25, 2013 at 11:42 PM
 

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mawz
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p.2 #11 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


magiclight wrote:
The fuji 'watercolor" effect ... is this with raw images too ?

I see it in jpegs however some say this is because the default noise reduction is far to high.


Yes, it is in the RAW's, more so than the JPEG. It's a legacy of certain RAW rendering choices in the pipeline. It's also mostly a solved problem if you select the correct RAW converter. The other RAW conversions issues inherent to X-Trans (mostly with regards to reduced colour resolution due to the X-Trans pattern) are far less visible outside of edge cases.



May 26, 2013 at 01:32 AM
glacierpete
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p.2 #12 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


mawz wrote:
Frankly, aside from resolution and per-pixel sharpness I've seen little to impress me from the Foveon sensors in terms of file quality. Decent colour normally, but colour falls apart quickly when challenged and they are inherently lousy in terms of colour accuracy due to the physics of the depth diffusion filtering (Foveon sensors cannot properly differentiate between colours which fall into the edges between two channels as the filtering is inherently insufficiently selective). Poor DR, poor noise performance. Overall IQ is IMHO inferior to my OM-D by a fair amount despite the resolution advantage. Since I don't look at my
...Show more

clarity, micro-contrast, 3D and colors are good IMHO and as it was mentioned before, resolution. I just returned from a trip where I used a DP2M and Sony NEX5n side by side for several hundred images. The Nex5n images look muddy compared to the DP2M. And I used good lenses on the Nex5n: Leica M, CV15 and Sony E 50mm f/1.8 OSS.
For landscape, travel and architecture the DP2M is a great camera. I see more advantages than disadvantages in practical use.



May 26, 2013 at 09:18 AM
andyjaggy82
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p.2 #13 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


I did several comparison with the Nex-7 and DP2 and the Sigma held enough of a resolution advantage to make it worth it for me. Anyway I'll keep shooting with it, and let others argue on the internet why or why not it's terrible technology.


May 26, 2013 at 12:34 PM
theSuede
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p.2 #14 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


It's not a terrible technology for EVERYONE - which has to be made clear. But it isn't, and will never be, a camera for everyone either.

Some people (most people?) need-want speed, good high ISO and accurate color. Foveon will never provide any of those three.

If you don't, well all power to you. Now, since all the Merrils came down in price you have a terrific camera for your needs and interests - at bargain level prices. No-one will hopefully argue with that. As no-one will hopefully argue with the plain fact that the Foveons have very serious drawbacks that makes them unsuitable for many others.



May 26, 2013 at 10:25 PM
philip_pj
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p.2 #15 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


The biggest surprise to me was the horrible colour, it looks Disneyland out of control in the Merrills, in not just accuracy but palatability. Doesn't bother many people, and I am happy for them.

There is a reason they sell for what they do - a lack of market acceptance for a beta product still mired deep in the development phase, after all these years. Another product that forces you to make (too many) workarounds.



May 26, 2013 at 11:17 PM
andrenth
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p.2 #16 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Honest question: I don't see these horrible colors in the photos people have been posting in the DP2m thread. Do you have any examples of this?

Thanks,
Andre



May 27, 2013 at 11:36 AM
Jochenb
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p.2 #17 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


Sometimes the Foveon colors can look superb, but a lot of the time they just don't IMHO.
There's this greenish, gray tint to them which I really don't like.



May 27, 2013 at 11:45 AM
L. Hristov
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p.2 #18 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


andyjaggy82 wrote:
I did several comparison with the Nex-7 and DP2 and the Sigma held enough of a resolution advantage to make it worth it for me. Anyway I'll keep shooting with it, and let others argue on the internet why or why not it's terrible technology.

As you said - I'll keep shooting with it. OM-D is long gone back to Amazon. NEX-5N too. Both superior tools as far as tools are concerned, especially the Oly.



May 27, 2013 at 09:08 PM
sculptormic
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p.2 #19 · Sony, now Canon Foveon "like" sensor.


I shoot with three cameras the NEX-7, Ricoh + A12 Leica mount (no AA filter) and the DP2 Merrill.
In sharpness none of them compare to the Merrill, second is Ricoh and third NE-7 after a lot of sharpness in PP.
For a lot of subjects I like the Merrill, it is a very nice camera, texture and detailing are just incredable, even at first look. Compare that to the first look of a NEX file and you see a vague jumble. (I am exaggerating here as well)
The Merrill need the most PP in search of the right color, but to call it Disneyland is a little overstated. You have to sort off work hard on them but you can do something about it.
Sony needs a lot of PP as well to get compareble sharpness and contrast but you can do a lot with the files and it is a very versatile camera, especially for a lens addict like me.

The Ricoh actually needs the least PP, half the extra contrast of the Sony, half the sharpness added then the Sony.
But the colours from the Sony and Ricoh (Sony sensor without AA filter))are very good straight out of the camera. ( I look forward to the next NEX without AA filter)

Here are two shots with the same sort of subject with the DP2Merrill and the Sony NEX.
This is in my opinion not the Merrill strongest subject choice, because grass is the biggest problem.
Should be said that the Merrill shot has less sunshine at that moment.
Now you can all fall over me and sable down the Merrill file.














May 28, 2013 at 08:02 AM
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