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Archive 2013 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE
  
 
jcolwell
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


PhotoMaximum wrote:
Read this review of the Zeiss 18 as it shows comparison pics with the 17 TSE. The 17 TSE more than holds its own.


I have both the TS-E 17/4L and Zeiss 18/3.5 ZE. If possible, I prefer to use the TS-E for images with buildings and other subjects with supposed-to-be straight lines, as the ZE has the characteristic moustache distortion. This can be corrected in PP, but it's easier to use a lens that doesn't require distortion corrections. Otherwise, I often use the 18 ZE beacuse it's relatively small and light, in comparison with the TS-E 17/4L. Both provide excellent IQ.

Of course, only the TS-E offers shift, which is often very useful on an ultra-wide lens.

PhotoMaximum wrote:
...My main problem with this lens is that I now want the 24 TSE II.


Resistance is futile.



May 20, 2013 at 02:17 PM
simonw
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


I thought we were discussing the Zeiss 15mm and 21mm as these are the lenses the original poster either has or is considering getting and comparing them to the Canon TSE lenses?

Cheers, Simon W.



May 20, 2013 at 02:23 PM
jcolwell
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


simonw wrote:
I thought we were discussing the Zeiss 15mm and 21mm as these are the lenses the original poster either has or is considering getting and comparing them to the Canon TSE lenses?

Cheers, Simon W.


That's why I didn't mention the 18 ZE in my original post. OTOH, there's no rule to say that you can't introduce a new player.

I think Max mentioned the Zeiss 18mm to support the fact that the TS-E 17/4L IQ is pretty darn good - it is.



May 20, 2013 at 02:53 PM
PhotoMaximum
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


The only reason I added the Zeiss 18 into the mix is that I liked the review and it showed how quality Zeiss wide lenses compare with the 17 TSE, which I was researching at the time. I am a very new owner of the 17 TSE.

But, as noted the OP really can't go wrong here. Most users would love to have this quandary really. All the lenses on his list are great.

While I do not have a Zeiss my current wide lens collection comprises the following:

Canon 15/2.8 EF
Canon 17/4 TS-E
Canon 16-35/2.8 L II
Minolta Rokkor MC W21/2.8
Canon 24-105/4 IS L
Canon 24/2.8 EF
Olympus Zuiko 24/2.8
Olympus Zuiko 28/2.8
Minolta Rokkor MC 35/1.8 HH

I use most of these but the best performing and most versatile of the bunch is the 17 TS-E, no question...



May 20, 2013 at 04:05 PM
akclimber
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


I've got the 24 TSE MK II for my Canons and the Zeiss 21 f/2.8 for my D800e. I love them both but if I could mount the Canon 24 on my Nikon, I'd sell the Zeiss in a heartbeat. I find the image quality about the same but the TS of the Canon really makes it much more useful than the Zeiss.

Good luck!



May 20, 2013 at 07:46 PM
Gunzorro
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


simonw wrote:
I think this is the first time I've ever heard someone accuse the Zeiss 21mm and 15mm lens of losing sharpness in the corners in 'abundance'. In fact I would say they are both extremely sharp, surely among the very best available.

Regarding vignetting both the Zeiss lenses are F2.8 and as you stop down to match the Canon 17mm TSE @ F4 and the 24mm TSE @ F3.5 the vignetting disappears rapidly.

As for build quality the Canon 24mm TSE that I own has a very 'gritty' feel when focussing and for a lens this expensive why are they silk screening
...Show more

Simon -- I meant the vignetting is extreme at the wider apertures, and my copy had accompanying reduced sharpness in the darkly vignette area until near cleared up full (which as around f/5.6). For the money paid for this manual focus Zeiss 21/2.8 lens, I expect it to be sharp and well corrected wide open, including mustache distortion. (I tolerate it in the inexpensive Samyang 14.)

Sorry you had a problem with TS-E focus smoothness -- you should send it in for repair under warranty. Out of five TS-E lenses, I've not had a problem like that, but I'm sure it happens. I did have a element out of alignment on the used 17 due to shipping damage by UPS, and it got repair rapidly and cheaply ($130 with my CPS 30% discount, paid for by the seller). Now it's simply gorgeous.

I don't even know where I'd send a Zeiss for a quick, cheap repair! For a complex mechanical lens, I want the confidence that it can be maintained and repaired without any hassle.

Engraving on the whole TS-E lens? The scales and all? Ha-ha! How much do you want to pay for a lens? You could probably send yours to Tiffany's and get it inlaid at the same time!

I just want something that gets the job done at a reasonable price and holds up pretty well.

Max -- Thanks for the review on the 17 TS-E vs. the ZE 18/3.5. That's a lens I've always been interested in. I noticed that the initial shots all show the 18 being about 1/2 stop faster than the other two. A little PP would have helped it look better. Not surprising to see how poor the 17-40 is in the corners, but that's a lens for $500 used! The 18 holds up very well considering used it can be had for around $900 -- it stays on my wish list.



May 20, 2013 at 08:07 PM
philip_pj
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


The 18mm f3.5 is so outclassed (technically, which is the seeming focus of this conversation) by the 21mm f2.8 it's quite sad.

Centre MTF wide open is (40-20-10 lpmm):

18mm: 62-84-92
21mm: 81-92-96

Zeiss don't get this sort of thing wrong - optical benches don't lie. The 18mm f3.5 ZE also has the dubious distinction of being arguably worse performing at f8 compared to f3.5, though more DoF will spread what remains around more of the image.

It is the redheaded stepchild of the range, and both the market and the level of respect reflect that view. It will still suit some people of course. I feel it is far beyond the rescue of a little PP, if the comparison is not to appear odious.



May 20, 2013 at 10:10 PM
Gunzorro
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


Philip -- Fair enough! Granted the ZE 18 is not a star of the DSLR line.

Then answer me this: What modern rectilinear lens in the in the 16-18 range can be had for Canon, having a convenient size and relatively inexpensive price, and as a bonus, having the electronic contacts for auto aperture and exif? I'm not aware of another one besides the ZE 18.



May 20, 2013 at 10:24 PM
jcolwell
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


I owned the 21 ZE for about two years. It's a very nice lens. I sold it about a year after getting the TS-E 24/3.5L II. Then I bought a TS-E 17/4L and 18/3.5 ZE. I use the ZE when I want to leave the TS-E lenses at home, and travel relatively light.

philip_pj wrote:
The 18mm f3.5 is so outclassed (technically, which is the seeming focus of this conversation) by the 21mm f2.8 it's quite sad.


Well, there's theory, and then there's practice. Here's a comparison of the ZE 18/3.5 (top left) and TS-E 17/4L (no tilt, no shift), that I made last year on my 1DX; f/8, no sharpening. I think they're both pretty good. If you can't take completely usable photos with the 18 ZE, then it's not the fault of the lens.





























May 20, 2013 at 11:22 PM
lostinjapan
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


Thank you all for the all the posts and the quality of them as well. I do appreciate the discussion even though a lot of it falls outside the scope of my original question. More things to consider, even if in the future. At the moment, I am thinking about sitting where I am, buying the 15mm and see how I like it. Considering the asking price, I could resell it in a few weeks for quite a bit more than he is asking. I do like the the rendering of my Zeiss lenses over the Canon, but the benefits of 17mm TSE do come in quite handy. Also, I had forgotten I do have a 1.4 TCIII in my case, and that could bring me up to 24mm for the time being, though I do need to test that combination.

Thanks for all the interesting input!

Ryan



May 21, 2013 at 01:39 AM
 

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PhotoMaximum
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


Ryan, there is a long thread about using a 1.4x TC on the 17 TS-E lens over at the Canon forum. I just did one test myself using version I of the TC. I also compared the result with using the TS-E alone on a crop sensor camera. Both were very good and quite similar...


May 21, 2013 at 01:46 AM
lostinjapan
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


PhotoMaximum wrote:
Ryan, there is a long thread about using a 1.4x TC on the 17 TS-E lens over at the Canon forum. I just did one test myself using version I of the TC. I also compared the result with using the TS-E alone on a crop sensor camera. Both were very good and quite similar...


I hadn't seen that, Thank you!!

Ryan



May 21, 2013 at 02:23 AM
Gunzorro
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


Jim -- Thanks for those samples comparing the ZE 18 against the 17 TS-E. That illustrates very well what I was trying to express. We know there is some CA on the 18, but it still has pretty good rez, and the CA can be cleaned up nicely (you didn't show that, but I know how to work LR ). For landscape, or subjects without straight lines, the mustache distortion isn't much of an issue.

As I rhetorically asked Philip, I don't think there is another lens available that can fill the need of the ZE 18 if you already have the 17 TS-E and want a smaller, handier lens on occasion.



May 21, 2013 at 03:30 AM
philip_pj
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


Yeah, maybe it has something Gunzorro, the PZ folks (and everyone else) have not done the right thing with the 15mm yet, and the 18mm is still pricy...PZ managed to give it 3 stars and almost said it was recommended so go figure, as they say. Maybe your crops show why..

Jim C, you know that MTF is more than theory, ;-)
Is your 17mm OK? There seems quite a difference in the crops...it seems to get done for microcontrast distant-centre-front, except the edges looks tidier due to greater coverage I guess. Not much in it anywhere, so point taken..mea culpa.



May 21, 2013 at 07:08 AM
R.Young
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


Sorry to revive an old thread. I'm looking to sell my 21 ZE for a 24 TSE. Mainly to be able for the movements but am worried ill miss the colour and micro contrast of the Zeiss. Is the TSE close enough in those departments to make it a good change?


Jun 24, 2013 at 09:13 PM
kiddik
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


I managed to dig up some old RAW's from when I had the 21ZE and 24TSE II at the same time Maybe not the best subject, but hey - better than nothing! :-)

First the 21ZE at a few apertures:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/canon_24mmTS/canon24tseII_vs_21ze_21_f2.8.CR2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/canon_24mmTS/canon24tseII_vs_21ze_21_f8.CR2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/canon_24mmTS/canon24tseII_vs_21ze_21_f16.CR2

Then the 24 TS-E II:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/canon_24mmTS/canon24tseII_vs_21ze_24_f3.5.CR2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/canon_24mmTS/canon24tseII_vs_21ze_24_f8.CR2
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/canon_24mmTS/canon24tseII_vs_21ze_24_f16.CR2

Hope this is of some help I don't feel the 21ZE was "better" than the 24 TS-E in any way, but it definitely had more character, somehow.

Here's another, older quick test that I did that roughly shows how the 21 ZE "pops" wide open compared to the 24 TS-E II:
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/zeiss/zeiss21vs24tseII_zeiss.jpg
https://dl.dropboxusercontent.com/u/80257/zeiss/zeiss21vs24tseII_canon.jpg

Good luck!



Jun 24, 2013 at 09:46 PM
R.Young
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


Thanks Kiddi, I'm a big fan of your work on Flickr.

I reckon I'll do it once I find a buyer for my ZE. it's just not getting enough use and I will enjoy playing with the movements, stitching etc.

Cheers



Jun 24, 2013 at 09:55 PM
Gunzorro
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


I agree with kiddik. If anything, I prefer the Canon 24 TSE to the ZE 21/2.8 for color and contrast. The ZE has far more lens aberrations contributing to its "character", especially light fall-off, which I've never been a fan of. To my eyes, the Canon looks "right" and not contrived or exaggerated. I don't see the nuanced color tonalities in the ZE that I see in the Canons and Leica R lenses.

To each, their own. There's nothing wrong with Zeiss -- its a wonderful brand with a long legacy. It just seems to not be my area of interest at this time.



Jun 25, 2013 at 03:20 AM
wayne seltzer
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


I prefer the colors and micro contrast of the Zeiss 21 over the TS-E's. I have the TS-E 17, a ze and a zf version of the 21 and Nikon 14-24G which is also very good in the 14-18mm range and is nice when I need the zoom and I don't shoot enough ~15mm to make it worth getting the very expensive Zeiss 15. My 17 needs to stop down to f7 before the corners get sharp but the 21 gets there by f5.6. I bet 21 is better in the corners at f5.6 than the TS-E 24. But each to their own as TS-E 24 is a great lens. I also prefer the slightly wider AOV of 21 over 24. What about flare performance?


Jun 25, 2013 at 05:29 AM
rscheffler
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Canon 17mm TSE, 24mm TSE vs Zeiss 15mm ZE, 21mm ZE


I've seen some nasty flare from the Zeiss 21, as illustrated by Luka (denoir) perhaps a couple years ago in either the long Zeiss images thread, or in the Leica thread as a comparison against Leica glass. But his might have been an unusually extreme shooting situation. It was from his southwest USA trip...


Jun 25, 2013 at 06:02 AM
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