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Archive 2013 · SL1 ---
  
 
Sagar
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p.4 #1 · p.4 #1 · SL1 ---


I just became probably a typical example of whom canon is targeting for and also power of retail display.

Long story short after spending enough time on ALT forum, I had more or less decided to go with Nex 7 specially as zeiss upcoming 12mm/32mm duo. So with that in mind ordered NEX 7 online and went to nearby BB to pick t up. Just out of curiosity I went to check SL1 and I literally fell in love with it. The way it becomes part of your hand grip is just amazing. So I requested he guy to mount 40mm pancake and I started laughing, it felt so small in hand that it questioned my logic and heart to go mirrorless. As you can guess I cancelled my NEX pick up order and came home with SL1. I hope not in so long future Canon makes it an FF ;-)

I am not talking about feature/spec comparison as probably most of us know about it already. Yes I knew those difference and did think about it before buying. Just wanted to share experience how SL1 connected emotionally through its handling.



Jun 08, 2013 at 12:40 AM
PetKal
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p.4 #2 · p.4 #2 · SL1 ---


I could use a small/light and high pixel density EOS dSLR body, and I am looking at SL1 and T5i.
How is their high ISO noise compared to 5DMkIII or 1DX ?
If it's similar to 7D, then that would not be very useful to me.



Jun 08, 2013 at 10:08 AM
Tom_W
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p.4 #3 · p.4 #3 · SL1 ---


Peter, I'm thinking that it's close to that of the 7D, but I have not really looked at a comparison test. That is the one issue that is keeping me from making a move.

I sold my 7D because I no longer used it much after getting the 5D3. In fact, I probably didn't take but 50 images with it since the 5D3 purchase. It no longer served my purposes. The high-ISO noise was part of that reasoning. It's decent, but it doesn't compare to the 5D3 or 1Dx.

I really, really like the idea of this tiny camera overall.



Jun 08, 2013 at 11:00 AM
gocolts
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p.4 #4 · p.4 #4 · SL1 ---


PetKal wrote:
I could use a small/light and high pixel density EOS dSLR body, and I am looking at SL1 and T5i.
How is their high ISO noise compared to 5DMkIII or 1DX ?
If it's similar to 7D, then that would not be very useful to me.


I agree. I have a 7D and wife has an SL1, I find ISO performance similar so far, but it's still a fun little camera. So light and small it encourages you to make excuses to take it everywhere and use it.



Jun 08, 2013 at 02:41 PM
PetKal
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p.4 #5 · p.4 #5 · SL1 ---


Tom_W wrote:
Peter, I'm thinking that it's close to that of the 7D, but I have not really looked at a comparison test. That is the one issue that is keeping me from making a move.

I really, really like the idea of this tiny camera overall.


Tommy, the internet is loaded with SL1 reviews already, but they mostly talk about its small size, cuteness and matching it with diverse small lenses.

I'd like to think that the most up to date cameras with 18 MP APS-C sensor handle ISO noise better than 7D.



Jun 08, 2013 at 02:45 PM
Gunzorro
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p.4 #6 · p.4 #6 · SL1 ---


Peter -- Like you, I haven't read of any major shifts in IQ for the newer crop cameras. So far, it's been mostly smaller sizes and new/better feature set.

The 18MP sensor probably needs an entire re-vamp to take it to, or beyond, 1DX levels of IQ. I'm sure Canon will have to address the new industry paradigm of 24MP being the new APS-C standard for top crop cameras.

APS-C will probably be my next new Canon, but it won't happen until the sensor is in better shape. Probably a 70D or T6i type of release schedule. Until then, I'll use the 60D for my crop needs.

But I have to say, the SL1 is beguiling! Especially with me considering a G1X (or its successor).



Jun 08, 2013 at 03:10 PM
kevindar
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p.4 #7 · p.4 #7 · SL1 ---


I am an Nex shooter also, 5n, with EVF (I would buy the 6 now) and the 16-50 lens. fits in a coat pocket. does much better with video shooting, and has a better sensor than the one in canon. the 16-50 also gives me the 24 mm which is great. then I either carry the sigma 30 2.8, or the sony 50 1.8. both very good optically. If I need any more flexibility, I just carry 5d3.
the focus peaking on the nex is fantastic, allowing me for good manual focus.



Jun 08, 2013 at 03:52 PM
sqdstf
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p.4 #8 · p.4 #8 · SL1 ---


Finally picked one up. .. This lil sob is fun


Jun 15, 2013 at 08:38 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.4 #9 · p.4 #9 · SL1 ---


DxO has its sensor test of the SL1 up. No surprise, it tests almost identically to Canon's other APS C sensors. The 7D has bit more low iso dynamic range. The G1X compares favorably at the pixel (screen) level but not quite at the print level, 14 MP vs 18 MP.

Still want to see how it feels in the hand with a 70-200 f4 mounted. It doesn't give me much over the G1X with a normal range zoom mounted. Other than a real viewfinder, 4 fps, and phase detect AF, that is.



Jun 15, 2013 at 10:01 PM
johnctharp
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p.4 #10 · p.4 #10 · SL1 ---


We keep hoping for Canon to ****** themselves and make a crop sensor that doesn't crap itself in low light. I stuck the 6D in there next to the P&S and the SL1 in their comparison tool and... Canon can keep them.

I can't understand why they continue to try to get away with this mess; I'm not expecting them to see in the dark like Canon's and Nikon's latest FF bodies, but the least they could do is improve them enough to minimize the shadow noise. Capturing noisy shadows at ISO100 is just ridiculous.



Jun 16, 2013 at 11:01 PM
 

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Jeff Nolten
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p.4 #11 · p.4 #11 · SL1 ---


johnctharp wrote:
... I stuck the 6D in there next to the P&S and the SL1 in their comparison tool and... Canon can keep them.


You are expecting them to defy physics. A 1.6 crop of a Canon FF sensor is less than 10 MP. I thought my 10 MP 40D was quite clean at low ISO. Canon has sacrificed low ISO noise for higher MP and managed some relative improvement in higher ISO noise in the process. Moving from a FF sensor to a crop sensor inherently means you are sacrificing some IQ for something else, such as cost, camera size, or speed. I'm replacing my 7D with a 5D3 for precisely this issue, but I love my G1X because it equals the IQ of the 7D + 15-85 but weighs just over 1 lb. and is a vast improvement over what my G10 could give me.



Jun 16, 2013 at 11:27 PM
johnctharp
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p.4 #12 · p.4 #12 · SL1 ---


Jeff Nolten wrote:
You are expecting them to defy physics.


Not at all .

I'm expecting them to improve over time; which they haven't. Every Canon crop sensor released since the 7D/T2i has been just as crippled as the first. They're even on their second generation of on-sensor phase detection (meaning re-spins of the sensor) and they haven't improved the sensor's capabilities itself an iota.

While I know we don't measure light like this, Canon's crop sensor has been rated at ~800ISO for sports/low light by DxO, while Nikon/Sony's latest has improved to ~1200ISO.

It's not '50%' better necessarily, but it's quite an improvement. And objectively, from the shots I've taken and compared to others (on both Canon and Nikon/Sony), I'd rather be shooting a Nikon D3000 into the dark than any Canon crop.

That's where I'm going with this. Canon has had over half a decade to improve this sensor and have fallen flat on their face in addressing it's greatest weakness.

It looks like their 'high MP FF sensor' might answer the 'DR with smaller pixels' question before they get around to answering it with a new crop sensor, assuming the 70D will be as underwhelming as Canon's recent crop camera developments have been.

Really only the SL1 is interesting, as the T4i/T5i are hardly improved from the T3i. The SL1 is what the T3/1000D should have been (and rightly could have been). Now it just needs to drop in price commensurate with it's relative feature set and bill of materials. Should be retailing for <$500 with the 18-55 STM when demand and economy of scale start normalizing.



Jun 17, 2013 at 06:32 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.4 #13 · p.4 #13 · SL1 ---


John, I basically agree with you that Canon has not improved on their 18 MP sensor, the SL1 sensor tests essentially the same as the 7D's. But I think saying Canon has fallen on its face or is deliberately crippling their cameras is being uselessly over dramatic. I agree the current Sony crop sensors have dramatically better low ISO DR but only marginally better noise characteristics. I'm not happy with my 7D's noise primarily because of the way I've used it with my 100-400 pushing ISO and shutter speed. I'm completely happy with my G1X because I can do people, street and landscape up to ISO 1600 where my previous G10 was limited to ISO 200. An SL1 might fill that niche with better lens choices, but more bulk.

In the post I responded to, you compared the SL1 performance to the 6D's. That is defying physics. My 5Dc is better than current crop sensors and the 5D3 is improved over the 5Dc. Comparing current bodies the FF will always win. Thats why I go with a 5D for my real camera and go with a crop when I want to save weight/bulk or push reach. Canon and Nikon produce a range of products whose performance is well tested and publicized. We're lucky to get to make well informed decisions and pick the products that suit us best.



Jun 18, 2013 at 02:10 PM
veroman
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p.4 #14 · p.4 #14 · SL1 ---


Jeff Nolten wrote:
.... My 5Dc is better than current crop sensors and the 5D3 is improved over the 5Dc. Comparing current bodies the FF will always win. Thats why I go with a 5D for my real camera and go with a crop when I want to save weight/bulk or push reach. Canon and Nikon produce a range of products whose performance is well tested and publicized. We're lucky to get to make well informed decisions and pick the products that suit us best.


I'm glad to read of another photographer who agrees with me, in general, about full frame vs. crops ... and specifically the 5Dc vs. crops.

Yes, full frame wins every time. I ventured into Canon's 18MP-Crop-Sensor territory beginning with the t3i and was pretty disappointed. Well, I said, the 60D and 7D have GOT to be better than this. So I tried both of them. Same level of disappointment compared to the output of my 5Dc at ALL ISOs as well as my 40D up to ISO 1600. I tried Micro Four Thirds (Panasonic G1, GH! and GF1 ... all nice cameras) and Four Thirds (E-series with Olympus' best lenses; I still own and use this excellent gear), but the noise levels above ISO 800 were too much for my tastes. I routinely shoot ISO 800 and up.

But since I still use my 5Dc for pro work, I kept trying out various, light crop cameras for travel and general purpose and settled on a t1i (15MP) with the AA filter removed. It's as close as I've gotten so far (using a crop body) to the output of the 5Dc. With the 16-35mm f/2.8 attached, it's often hard to tell the two apart, IQ-wise. And the t1i does very well at ISO 1600 ... though not too well above that.

Anyway, for those who have no qualms about the 18MP sensor, the SL1 looks like a very competent little camera. A friend of mine just bought one and loves it. But she's never shot full frame and has no intentions of shooting full frame. I think the 18MP sensor that Canon has been re-purposing these last several years started out as mediocre and continues to be mediocre, and I'm not just referring to the noise.

- Steve



Jun 18, 2013 at 06:16 PM
pKai
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p.4 #15 · p.4 #15 · SL1 ---


Glad to see my thread is still alive.... .... BTW, I will NOT be buying an SL-1 due to what is currently being discussed: Warmed over T2i specs in a smaller, cuter box....

To all of you trashing Canon for not improving APS-C sensors since the 7D.... In principle, I agree with you. I want an SL-1 sized body with a 50mp sensor, clean shadows at ISO 256,000, and a price tag of $500.....

In practice... ain't gonna happen.... Why? For Canon, its not about who's on top technologically.... its about who's on top in sales.... and that's still Canon by any estimation. Canon has only taken the lead technologically when it clearly satisfied the profit motive and they did it in areas where the competition clearly fell down (i.e. AF in the 1980s, IS in the 1990s, digital in the 2000s, etc)..... They NEVER took the lead technologically just for bragging rights. Smaller market players, OTOH, have every incentive to do so... that's how they take away market from people like Canon.

Canon will spend the least amount of capital producing exactly what they have to produce to stay on top... no more, no less.

We will likely see a marginally improved APS-C sensor in the next year or so.......



Jun 18, 2013 at 07:52 PM
Gochugogi
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p.4 #16 · p.4 #16 · SL1 ---


veroman wrote:
I'm glad to read of another photographer who agrees with me, in general, about full frame vs. crops ... and specifically the 5Dc vs. crops.

Yes, full frame wins every time. I ventured into Canon's 18MP-Crop-Sensor territory beginning with the t3i and was pretty disappointed. Well, I said, the 60D and 7D have GOT to be better than this. So I tried both of them. Same level of disappointment compared to the output of my 5Dc at ALL ISOs as well as my 40D up to ISO 1600. I tried Micro Four Thirds (Panasonic G1, GH! and GF1 ... all nice
...Show more

The T1i is that good?! I've not owned one but I briefly had a 50D with 15MP COS and it suffered from more noise, especially pattern based, than any DSLR I've owned. I thought the 7D was squeaky clean in comparison! But then maybe Canon tweaked the Rebel CMOS. Seems like I recall the Rebel debuting sometime after the 50D.



Jun 18, 2013 at 08:02 PM
veroman
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p.4 #17 · p.4 #17 · SL1 ---


Gochugogi wrote:
... The T1i is that good?! I've not owned one but I briefly had a 50D with 15MP COS and it suffered from more noise, especially pattern based, than any DSLR I've owned. I thought the 7D was squeaky clean in comparison! But then maybe Canon tweaked the Rebel CMOS. Seems like I recall the Rebel debuting sometime after the 50D.


Yes, the t1i/500D is better than the 50D when it comes to noise. I found the 50D needed a lot of noise reduction at anything over ISO 800. To my eyes, the t1i at ISO 1600 is noticeably better than the 50D. I use Capture One for processing. Could be other software ... including Canon's DPP ... doesn't handle the noise as well.

- Steve



Jun 18, 2013 at 09:48 PM
veroman
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p.4 #18 · p.4 #18 · SL1 ---


Gochugogi wrote:
The T1i is that good?


Some pics from a recent trip to Spring Lake, NJ. 500D/t1i, no AA filter, w/Tamron 17-50 f/2.8:


















Jun 18, 2013 at 11:59 PM
johnctharp
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p.4 #19 · p.4 #19 · SL1 ---


Damn, and to think that I passed the T1i off to my sister- but then after picking up the 60D, I guess I always suspected I might have lost quality (bigger pixels FTW). Happy that she has it though! I've moved on .

By the way, I'm quite aware of the 'physics' involved; I honestly didn't want to insult anyone by delving into that, as I assume you're all aware of it too.

My point (third restatement?) is not that Canon's crop sensors are so bad compared to their FF sensors as well as the competition's APS-C sensors- it's that they've shown no improvement for five years, even after Canon has gone to the lengths of adding phase-detection capabilities to them, which surely required design changes.

They can add completely different sensor capabilities to the crops, but they can't improve shadow quality with five years to work on it? That's all the SL1 has to do to get into our bags!



Jun 19, 2013 at 01:15 AM
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