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Archive 2013 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format
  
 
edwardkaraa
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p.5 #1 · p.5 #1 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


naturephoto1 wrote:
Edward,

I don't think that you have experienced some of the finest Leica R glass such as the 100mm f2.8 Macro Apo, the 180mm Apo lenses, the 280mm f4 Apo Telyt, or the Modular system.

Rich


Not directly, but I have seen amazing stuff from Leica R and M glass. In fact when I get the M 240, the first lens on my list is the 100/2.8 macro. But I think Zeiss produces a better look, and when the budget is available, as you will see with the 55/1.4, the product will be class leading.



May 11, 2013 at 07:21 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.5 #2 · p.5 #2 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


Tariq Gibran wrote:
It was more a tongue-in-cheek remark. Leica makes fine cameras (I still say the best were the all mechanical M's), I just don't "buy" the marketing spin of them being 10 years ahead, even in the MF market.

Yes Edward, in general I prefer the Leica rendering - or, at least what it once was before the last decade or so. I think it's become a little more clouded as far as a "look" with both Zeiss and Leica trading/ sharing some attributes lately.



Understood Tariq, and my remark was also meant to pull your leg a little

Needless to mention that the 10 years ahead statement is by some over enthusiastic Leica employee. It's a bit ridiculous imo even if arguably Leica is ahead, but how can you quantify 10 years ahead?



May 11, 2013 at 07:24 PM
naturephoto1
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p.5 #3 · p.5 #3 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


edwardkaraa wrote:
Not directly, but I have seen amazing stuff from Leica R and M glass. In fact when I get the M 240, the first lens on my list is the 100/2.8 macro. But I think Zeiss produces a better look, and when the budget is available, as you will see with the 55/1.4, the product will be class leading.


Edward,

I believe that I saw the Prototype of the Zeiss 55mm f1.4 lens at Photoplus in NYC this past October. If that is one of the 2 lenses that I saw, it is a monster for size and weight. Not something that I would be interested in to carry very far.

Rich



May 11, 2013 at 07:28 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.5 #4 · p.5 #4 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


white wrote:
I get a little tired of the rich dentist thing that some must refer to in order to try and justify their perceived short comings. As a retired dentist, I invested in extensive education and worked on a business plan that gave a good income. The job itself is very artful and creative and lends itself to creative people who also excell at other things, such as photography. Do not infer that because one was motivated enough to create a productive career that they just buy expensive gear as bling that they can not use. I use my stuff to
...Show more

Fully agreed White, and I apologize for having repeated the same language in one of my previous posts. In fact, I am a Leica M9 owner but I am not a dentist. However, I am a jeweler, so that may actually be worse than a dentist in their view



May 11, 2013 at 07:28 PM
redisburning
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p.5 #5 · p.5 #5 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


white wrote:
I use my stuff to the fullest and can stand my own ground with any self proclaimed righteous professional.


so I take it youve seen an average wedding photographer attempt to take a real picture, too?

#shotsfired



May 11, 2013 at 07:40 PM
sflxn
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p.5 #6 · p.5 #6 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format



The Leica M9 is the best camera I have ever used. I love it more than the A900, 5D, 1Ds and 1Ds2 that I previously owned. On the other hand, I think Zeiss makes better lenses. If Zeiss could command Leica lens prices, they would produce super amazing glass for that money. Leica glass delivers a great distinctive look no doubt, but Zeiss is the real master. What Leica does best is cameras.


This contributes to the Leica is for rich people idea. Compared to Leica, Zeiss is relatively cheap. Zeiss makes quality lenses that doesn't tries to add in exclusivity tax like Leica. There are a lot of famed, old lens makers out there, and it seems Leica is the only one that makes all their prices seem like bargains. I was browsing Leica R lenses on ebay for my NEX. It funny how the M lenses are atleast 2-3 x the prices of the R lenses, simply because there isn't any new cameras coming from Leica to use the R lenses. If there was a new camera coming to use the used R lenses, their prices would jump 4-5x, due to the exclusivity tax that community of owners expects.



May 11, 2013 at 07:49 PM
redisburning
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p.5 #7 · p.5 #7 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


the two ZM lenses made in Germany had basically the same prices as their Leica equivalents...


May 11, 2013 at 08:03 PM
carstenw
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p.5 #8 · p.5 #8 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


sflxn wrote:
Zeiss makes quality lenses that doesn't tries to add in exclusivity tax like Leica.


?? Do you have some facts to back up such a brash statement?



May 11, 2013 at 08:08 PM
sflxn
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p.5 #9 · p.5 #9 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


carstenw wrote:
?? Do you have some facts to back up such a brash statement?


Dude, lighten up! It's called an OPINION, a very popular one at that.



May 11, 2013 at 08:13 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.5 #10 · p.5 #10 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


redisburning wrote:
the two ZM lenses made in Germany had basically the same prices as their Leica equivalents...


Not quite. The now discontinued 85/2 Sonnar used to sell for around 2600$ while the 90/2 cron sells for 4000$.

There is no equivalent for the ZM 15/2.8 Distagon (4600$) in the Leica line, but it is safe to assume it would cost no less than 7000$ if it existed based on the pricing of other lenses.

Of course the Japanese made ZM are only about 1/3 of the equivalent M glass approximately.

By the way, from what I've seen, the Sonnar seems to be on a higher optical level than the summicron, especially wide open.



May 11, 2013 at 08:14 PM
 

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edwardkaraa
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p.5 #11 · p.5 #11 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


sflxn wrote:
This contributes to the Leica is for rich people idea. Compared to Leica, Zeiss is relatively cheap. Zeiss makes quality lenses that doesn't tries to add in exclusivity tax like Leica. There are a lot of famed, old lens makers out there, and it seems Leica is the only one that makes all their prices seem like bargains. I was browsing Leica R lenses on ebay for my NEX. It funny how the M lenses are atleast 2-3 x the prices of the R lenses, simply because there isn't any new cameras coming from Leica to use the R lenses.
...Show more

I believe the high Leica M prices come from 2 reasons. The manufacturing process is more labour intensive and more parts are assembled by hand than Zeiss. The use of special glass in order to make the lenses smaller, while Zeiss traditionally doesn't give priority to size and prefers larger lenses with more elements to achieve the same optical performance (or even better IMO).



May 11, 2013 at 08:22 PM
carstenw
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p.5 #12 · p.5 #12 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


(whatever)

Edited on May 11, 2013 at 10:37 PM · View previous versions



May 11, 2013 at 08:31 PM
sflxn
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p.5 #13 · p.5 #13 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


carstenw wrote:
It would more accurately be called factless abuse. Pointless drivel.

I lighten up whenever there is humour around, something woefully missing here.


You are some character. Have yourself a nice day.



May 11, 2013 at 08:44 PM
redisburning
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p.5 #14 · p.5 #14 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


edwardkaraa wrote:
Not quite. The now discontinued 85/2 Sonnar used to sell for around 2600$ while the 90/2 cron sells for 4000$.

There is no equivalent for the ZM 15/2.8 Distagon (4600$) in the Leica line, but it is safe to assume it would cost no less than 7000$ if it existed based on the pricing of other lenses.

Of course the Japanese made ZM are only about 1/3 of the equivalent M glass approximately.

By the way, from what I've seen, the Sonnar seems to be on a higher optical level than the summicron, especially wide open.


a 90 non APO isnt 4k tho. APO corrections are some of the more expensive ones, as Im sure you know.

and how much is the Canon 85mm f1.8 again? lol. not saying it's in the same realm, but that is a lens most people consider to be reasonably priced. even the 85L isnt as much as these two f2 lenses at nearly 2 stops faster.

btw, Sonnar better than Summicron? at f1.5 compared to f2? maybe you mean Planar, because the Summicron and Planar both decimate the Sonnar as far as contrast at a given resolution goes at equivalent apertures.

as far as Planar vs Cron goes, well the Cron tends to test better at MTF50 but it's hard to know who wins this battle overall. Zeiss' MTF graphs are incomplete even compared to Leicas, and we cant directly compare them except at f2. If you've ever taken a look at the 50MP's graphs at f4 (they are actually out there if you look hard enough) that lens isnt any better than the ZM Planar but that doesnt mean you can assume the Planar goes to MP levels at f5.6. If it does then yes, that lens does in fact pull ahead of the Summicron.

but, if not, then the area under their mtfs probably equals out and then the cron is smaller and has less distortion.

the summilux ASPH is better than both though, and you pay for that. both in price and in its strange way of making itself look like a telephoto lens at larger apertures.

as far as I see it, the difference is purely in the price point between Leica and Zeiss. at the same price I dont think either would be able to make a lens that is strictly better than the other.



May 11, 2013 at 08:46 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #15 · p.5 #15 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


Ok, it's funny how a thread about MF has turned into a Zeiss vs Leica debate!

I'll take either one - or Schneider Kreuznach, Pentax or hell, even Mamiya! The best of any of them are terrific!



May 11, 2013 at 09:12 PM
redisburning
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p.5 #16 · p.5 #16 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


well, that is where the debate SHOULD go.

because right now you could get a Leica S and some lenses or you might get a very high resolution FF 35mm camera ala D800E and the new line of Zeiss lenses designed to compete with it, e.g. the 55/1.4 distagon and the 135/2 sonnar. they may not have similar prices, but I do think Zeiss sees these products as going head to head and I doubt Leica is just ignoring it.



May 11, 2013 at 09:16 PM
Tariq Gibran
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p.5 #17 · p.5 #17 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


Yes, if you completely ignore sensor size. Maybe Zeiss will take over the Medium Format market with their new APS lenses too. It's really not too far removed from the idea that a ff 35 based camera will be considered a replacement for the "real" MF sized sensors. Now a Leica S2 or the Pentax 645D, yes you're right. That's closer in size and will see more pressure from coming FF 35 and very high end glass. I think the full size sensor MF players that currently dominate the MF market will be safe for the very high end professionals that use them.


May 11, 2013 at 09:33 PM
Lee Saxon
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p.5 #18 · p.5 #18 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


edwardkaraa wrote:
Hmmm, I see no waiting lists for lenses. They're all available at my local dealer with discounts. The only product that is still on wait list is the M 240.


I think you're misunderstanding which lenses I'm referring to, the Summilux-C's are the ~$20k each cine lenses. If you know a dealer who has a set in stock, there are a dozen or so members on Reduser who would trample each other getting there.



May 11, 2013 at 09:35 PM
warrenjrphotog
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p.5 #19 · p.5 #19 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


sflxn wrote:
It's like this, they're all running like they're being chased by a pack of wolves. 35mm FF has eaten so much of the pro market that MF has pushed up into ever ridiculously high-end market, with prices to show for it. MF has been running from the FF 35mm market for years. Now, the tables are turned. The FF 35mm markers are now being chased by a different pack of wolves -- smartphone. The market for digicam is dying faster than film did years ago. Their days are numbered. 35mm are now all scurrying to the high end of FF
...Show more

I'm sorry but this is nonsense. The difference between M4/3rds and one of Canons top of the line P&S's even shows a large difference in image quality.

Cell phone photo sensors are never going to catch up to FF or medium format or even large format DSLR's because with a bigger sized camera will always come much better image quality due to the larger sensor sizes and better ergonomics.

Physics also proves that small smart phones will never deliver the same image quality as a larger sensor size.

It's the same thing with telescopes and the rest of the optical technology that's available, we're all limited by the size of our systems.

Look at those huge telescopes that they have out there, there's no way that a small telescope will ever come close to having the same capability's of the larger one due to the role that glass, sensor size, and physics all play in it.

Unless cameras go to the point where they no longer rely on glass and no longer rely on sensors than bigger will always equal better.

It's the same thing with regular computers vs super computers or laptops vs desktops.

The bigger system will always win and to top this all off I compared some photos taken from my friends new Canon super zoom to my 40D and there is no comparison image quality wise even when printing 4X6's even when she's using iso 100 yet her camera has more Mega Pixels so Mega Pixels alone means nothing in most cases.

Once she goes above iso 200 the image quality degrades very fast as well.

To compare a Full Frame body to a cell phone is laughable as the difference in quality, ergonomics, and capability's will always be light years apart.

I'm glad that we're seeing more talk about digital medium format body's/lenses though.

I'd really love to get my hands on a nice digital medium format body some day with a nice set of lenses.

From what I've seen Medium Format looks out of this world amazing not to mention some of the top portrait photographers such as Frank Doorhof use Medium Format as their primary choice for professional work.

People do a lot of comparing of crop body dslrs to ff dslrs but the difference between a medium format body to a ff body is much more drastic from what I've seen.



May 11, 2013 at 09:43 PM
AshNZ
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p.5 #20 · p.5 #20 · Leica S-System and the future of Medium-Format


Hi, I'm here for the Leica bashing.
Have I come to right place?



May 11, 2013 at 09:52 PM
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