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Archive 2013 · lens issue / please help
  
 
carstenw
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p.2 #1 · lens issue / please help


warpedwoof wrote:
So those of you who think that my expectations are too high believe I should have ignored every positive review of the lens since it was released, including those by pros in the field, and instead have had enough wisdom to know that it was susceptible to such horrible manufacturing issues - a Zeiss lens - that I should have seen this coming from this seller?


No need to get pissy here, nor to ignore all positive reviews. Just balance them with the negative reviews. Most people are only able to test one copy, and you don't know if the copy you get is going to be as good as the copy the tester had. This is very normal, really nothing special. I still remember the mixed reviews when this lens came out. If you haven't come across these, you probably haven't spent very much effort researching the lens.

Zeiss ZA lenses are made and tested by Sony, AFAIK. Only the design is approved by Zeiss or something similar.

It seems to me that you created this thread specifically to back your opinion up, not to find out the truth about the lens design or the opinions of the people here. If the lens was known to be uniformly stellar, then I think it is reasonable to expect a stellar copy, but this lens is generally known to be the weakest of the FF ZA lenses. Maybe you should have asked before you bought.



Apr 25, 2013 at 10:49 PM
warpedwoof
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p.2 #2 · lens issue / please help


Again, I ask every one of you who has tried to ignore the original issue.

Would you be satisfied to receive this lens after paying $1425 if the left side through most of its range was soft even stopped down, and be willing to shrug it off for all the reasons stated above?

I don't think so.






Edited on Apr 25, 2013 at 11:04 PM · View previous versions



Apr 25, 2013 at 11:00 PM
carstenw
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p.2 #3 · lens issue / please help


Of course I wouldn't be happy. But if the lens is known to have occasional issues, it isn't reasonable to expect the seller to act as a quality filter for you, if no specific promises are made. Just sell it and try again.


Apr 25, 2013 at 11:03 PM
warpedwoof
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p.2 #4 · lens issue / please help


See, this is what I don't understand with people's thinking. And I say this while appreciating everyone's willingness to comment.

I can't sell this lens for a price remotely close to what I paid for it because I know that it is fatally flawed. I would have to disclose the issue and offer it for substantially less. To even make it work reasonably close to what it should I will have to spend several hundred dollars on the apparent crapshoot that Sony will be able to repair it to some degree of usability.

How is this fair? And I say that without any naivete about the workings of the real world.

Paul



Apr 25, 2013 at 11:10 PM
corposant
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p.2 #5 · lens issue / please help


Dude, you bought this lens 2 months ago. If I were the seller, and you brought this up now...


Apr 25, 2013 at 11:12 PM
warpedwoof
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p.2 #6 · lens issue / please help


...you'd say you got one over on me.

Dude, that's beside the point. This isn't about me getting compensation. It's about the integrity of a seller. He very obviously wouldn't have acknowledged the flaw and offered that compensation even immediately after the sale.

I only recently realized the flaw existed because my first shooting was mostly at night in the last few months of a bad winter that still hasn't ended. You expect a bit more from a lens and a seller who projects knowledge and honesty. He was the second owner, which tells me even more.

But none of this still has anything to do with the original question.

And by the way, nearly all respondents to the same question on both DPReview and the Dyxum forum have agreed that the lens has soft focus on the left side, and feel it should be returned.

Paul



Edited on Apr 26, 2013 at 01:04 AM · View previous versions



Apr 25, 2013 at 11:25 PM
mcbroomf
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p.2 #7 · lens issue / please help


Well, posting questions like this on an open forum you're just bound to get discussion about all aspects as well as (if any) responses to your question.

You may just have to chalk this one up to a learning curve, sell at a loss (if you choose to) and move on. In the future think of the following;

Ask specifically about the lens performance that's important to you
Request a raw file taken at your specific settings (F8, WO, detail, night etc)
Request return privs and a time frame
If these are not forthcoming walk away

If you follow through with this you should not get too many surprises (pretty much impossible with most ebay buys though)

Mike

PS. I do see the blurred LHS and would not be happy with it, but I don't know anything about this lens so I have no expectations about it's performance and I also don't know what deal you negotiated (eval/return etc) with the seller



Apr 25, 2013 at 11:39 PM
warpedwoof
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p.2 #8 · lens issue / please help


I grant your argument, Mike. More due-diligence on my part could have prevented this.

I am a long way from being wealthy enough to afford this lens new. I chose the lens because it was considered the best option from Sony. I'm using the A99, and used the A77 before it, because the articulating screen allows me to take difficult shots of the type I take while accommodating my reality that I have only a single eye.

Because I can't afford new, and because these lenses don't reach the secondhand market very often, and stay available for very long, I moved to buy it more quickly than I should have.

But that still doesn't justify the seller's response. I couldn't have sold this lens without disclosing the flaw. He knew it existed.

I find it interesting that even though he's watching this thread, and sold the lens to me on this forum, he's had nothing to say in his own defense.

Paul

Edited on Apr 26, 2013 at 01:00 AM · View previous versions



Apr 25, 2013 at 11:51 PM
warpedwoof
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p.2 #9 · lens issue / please help


I've said enough about this. Thanks to all who contributed.

Paul



Apr 25, 2013 at 11:57 PM
Taylor Sherman
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p.2 #10 · lens issue / please help


I'm relatively certain that this lens qualifies as "defective". I don't know what people are looking at when they say the effect is "subtle". The lens is incapable of focusing evenly. In the house photo no part of the left half of the frame is usable IMO. It's visible even at "web" sizes.





Apr 26, 2013 at 12:54 AM
 

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Gary Clennan
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p.2 #11 · lens issue / please help


I agree with Taylor - the lens does not seem to be performing as it should. However, if you look at the last sample pic provided in the lens listing, the results "appear" to be very sharp - even on the LHS. Could you maybe do some more extensive, controlled testing to make sure?


Apr 26, 2013 at 02:14 AM
Tariq Gibran
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p.2 #12 · lens issue / please help


There would appear to be a number of points here imo.

1) The lens suffers from a manufacturers defect. De-centering of a lens is, unfortunately, not uncommon with Sony...even the Zeiss branded lenses. Sony should make it right!

2) It's very possible the original owner may not have been aware of the problem.

3) Even if the lens did not suffer de-centering, it's very likely it would not live up to the expectations of the OP. IMO, this lens did receive undue hype when new from many reviewers and users, as do a number of Zeiss branded lenses (sort of a "halo" bias effect since there are of course many very fine Zeiss lenses). More research and examination of online full size sample images would have clearly shown this (that was the case for me anyway).



Apr 26, 2013 at 02:20 AM
warpedwoof
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p.2 #13 · lens issue / please help


I wasn't going to continue, but I will say this because it needs to be said. Everybody wants to fudge the ethics of civil behavior these days. I was even called a bully by the first owner of this lens for stating my case in a question of fairness.

As I've stated throughout the thread, I did not expect the lens to be perfect or in any way exceptional like some of the Zeiss primes. I have the Zeiss 24mm, and I know the difference. I've had other Zeisses with other brands, including on two Nex cameras and some of the best primes ever offered by Pentax.

I looked at countless reviews and images of what the lens was capable of producing. I knew that it was soft in the corners and borders until stopped down to a sweet spot of f5.6 to 8 where the extremes were almost there but not quite. I knew that it was quite sharp at 16mm, but still showed very good results to 35mm. I knew that it was pretty close to the Nikon and Canon alternatives, but they all had their weaknesses. I knew that all wide angle lenses have their compromises, even the primes.

I also knew that there were inconsistencies in Sony quality control, just like any manufacturer these days. re: Nikon.

Yet, when it's the best available option at wider than 24mm offering f2.8 for what I do in a line of lenses, the writing is on the wall. You expect a bit of integrity and perception from a man who implies on this forum that he's an experienced semi-professional and has sold many items with perfect feedback. However, as in life, the true test of a person comes not when life is cosey, buy how he responds when challenged for his error of omission or commission. Does he take responsibility and make amends, or basically tell me it isn't his problem. This seller chose the latter option.

You can easily see in the house image I provided that the lens is fairly sharp on the right hand side - without any sharpness or contrast added in post-processing. All that I'd ask is that it be balanced on the left side. I don't think anyone loyal to any brand or lens would disagree with that.

That would have been, and still is my only expectation. Is it not yours - the readers of this thread?

That is the bottom line in terms of the seller. I assure you he knew what he was doing. And apparently had no qualms at all about selling it to me for $125 more than he paid for it.

Paul

Edited on Apr 27, 2013 at 01:14 PM · View previous versions



Apr 26, 2013 at 02:58 AM
sebboh
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p.2 #14 · lens issue / please help


the lens is clearly decentered and i would not accept that performance from such a lens were i the buyer.

BUT

if it took you a month or two to notice the problem and contact the seller i certainly wouldn't expect the seller to give you a refund. most reasonable sellers will give 1-2 weeks to notify them of a problem and ask for a refund. if you're buying a used lens (or even a new lens) it's your responsibility to test it while in the refundable period (and you should!).

even though the problem is evident to me in all of the sample pics, i know lots of people who could use such a lens forever and never notice an issue. if i sold somebody a lens i thought was in perfect working condition and they seemed happy with it till a month and half later when they started complaining about a flaw, i would probably suspect they had dropped it or something and were trying to get me to pay for their clumsiness.

finally, for sellers it really pays to post some full resolution images taken with the lens your selling so buyers can know what to expect and these problems can (hopefully) be avoided.



Apr 26, 2013 at 03:44 AM
warpedwoof
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p.2 #15 · lens issue / please help


And as I've said before, the seller has given every indication that a refund of any kind would have never happened -- even immediately after the purchase. I make no bones about the fact that I discovered it late, but that doesn't get around the reality that he willingly sold me a flawed lens - and has tried to make every excuse for doing so.

For the umpteenth time, the issue is about ethics and fairness. I don't expect any compensation from him, and he has made it clear that he feels the lens is perfectly fine the way it is - when I know that he knows it isn't.

Paul



Apr 26, 2013 at 03:58 AM
aleksanderpolo
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p.2 #16 · lens issue / please help


There is no use arguing here. Why don't you contact paypal (assuming that you pay through paypal) and see if they will accept your claim? If they say it is too late, then in all fairness it is too late.




Apr 26, 2013 at 04:25 AM
philip_pj
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p.2 #17 · lens issue / please help


I don't think elapsed time changes the issue, if the buyer has not used the lens or gotten feverish about testing it fast. What it does change is that time has passed on and the seller sees the deal as well embedded in the past. What works best is some arrangement, i.e. get back within a week or two if you find a problem.

Paul, as there is at least a sense this is not clearcut, perhaps just sell it as is? Your standards are most likely higher than many, and it is important to know this, a matter of self awareness...also, lens problems and 'performance' if you will, follows a gradient, often quite broad - Roger Cicala has produced data on copies of specific lenses showing this. This one has visible issues but is not that bad to render it unusable, and your expectations overlap with the design induced output of the lens.

'Zeiss ZA lenses are made and tested by Sony, AFAIK. Only the design is approved by Zeiss or something similar.'

A very interesting story, lots of secrecy and doubt...
http://www.dyxum.com/dforum/are-sony-zeiss-lenses-really-zeiss_topic10171_page1.html

I don't know, the truth is out there somewhere...I will say this though - I sat through a video of a presentation by one of Sony's lens designer, young bubbly guy but very self-assured - who continually referred to 'the things we at Sony tried' in developing the design of the new ZA 50/1.4, no mention of Zeiss and this was very detailed design discussion - where to place elements, type of glass, nano coatings, prototypes, etc. It was followed by similar talk re the new 70-400II, same approach..

Zeiss was nowhere in the picture that was portrayed and the first person pronouns got a work out. It had a ring of truth about it, but who knows for sure?




Apr 27, 2013 at 08:05 AM
michael49
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p.2 #18 · lens issue / please help


The lens looks decentered to me.

If I were the seller and someone came back to me with this complaint shortly after purchase then I would offer to either take the lens back or pay for the full repair cost. If, however, they came back to me 2 months after purchase I would probably offer some sort of compromise, perhaps offering to pay for half of the repair costs. At least that is how I would approach this as a seller.

Suggesting that the OP simply put the lens back up for sale makes zero sense to me - its obviously in need of repair and its a $1500 lens - you can't sell it like that!! -- the question is who should pay for the repair.



Apr 27, 2013 at 11:38 AM
aleksanderpolo
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p.2 #19 · lens issue / please help


B&H's return policy:

"If, for whatever reason, you are dissatisfied with your purchase, you can return it to B&H within 30 days of purchase date. Claims for missing items or items damaged in transit must be received within two business days of receipt of merchandise."

I don't think B&H offer any compromise after 2 months. Let's be reasonable here with a private sale.



Apr 27, 2013 at 04:56 PM
AhamB
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p.2 #20 · lens issue / please help


I've been in similar situations, Paul. If I owned your lens I probably wouldn't dare to sell it either, at least not without Sony confirming that it's within specs. While it's disappointing to see this kind of attitude from forum members here, it doesn't surprise me because everywhere there are people who think more about their wallet than they do about their conscience.

Maybe you can do some more real-world shooting with the lens and see if the best results give a better impression of the performance that the lens can deliver.



Apr 27, 2013 at 07:28 PM
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