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Archive 2013 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

John_T
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

My conclusion after doing similar experiments with 5D3+2xTCIII+70-200L 2.8 IS II vs. 7D+2xTCIII+70-200L 2.8 IS II was that the 5D3 combo was better at everything, though a little shorter, and that if I were to make the 7D Frisbee flat and use it for BIF shooting practice, it might be less frustrating.

Apr 22, 2013 at 01:12 PM

skibum5
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

John_T wrote:
My conclusion after doing similar experiments with 5D3+2xTCIII+70-200L 2.8 IS II vs. 7D+2xTCIII+70-200L 2.8 IS II was that the 5D3 combo was better at everything, though a little shorter, and that if I were to make the 7D Frisbee flat and use it for BIF shooting practice, it might be less frustrating.

Shocking to hear that. I thought the 70-200 2.8 II was sharp at 200mm?

300 2.8 IS I (not even talking the new version) + 2x TC III and it wasn't even close, 7D hands down (other than for very very dark colored birds in shadows under super poor lighting)

(of course I am referring only to reach limited scenarios, when not reach limited 5D3 certainly wins, that is a totally different matter though)

Apr 22, 2013 at 03:20 PM

zamco
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

When I first got my 5diii I put it up against the 7d with the 5d iii having a 1.4iii tc and 500mm f/4 is and it beat the 7d bare with same lens. Both at iso 400 the 5d at f/6.3 and the 7d at f/5.6 and 6.3. Have not used the 7d much after that. Hope the 7dii will be better

Apr 22, 2013 at 05:26 PM

skibum5
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

zamco wrote:
When I first got my 5diii I put it up against the 7d with the 5d iii having a 1.4iii tc and 500mm f/4 is and it beat the 7d bare with same lens. Both at iso 400 the 5d at f/6.3 and the 7d at f/5.6 and 6.3. Have not used the 7d much after that. Hope the 7dii will be better

yeah but why would you not then put the 1.4x TC on the 7D too?

Apr 22, 2013 at 07:31 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

7D get's a bad rap for sure. I was looking at some surfing photos last night I took with 7D and 500 f/4 and the level of detail and clarity is superb, all at ISO 400. When the 7D nails it, it's a stellar camera. And no I don't think it's better than a 5D III, but that doesn't detract from it's capabilities.

Apr 22, 2013 at 08:08 PM

Imagemaster
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

When taken from the same distance, I do not find the cropped 5D3 + 500 f4 + 1.4x TC image to be any better than a 7D + 500 f4 + 1.4x TC un-cropped image. IMO the 5D3 + 500 f4 + 2x TC does not result in as good a cropped image as the 7D + 500 f4 + 1.4x TC un-cropped image.

Apr 22, 2013 at 09:04 PM

Scott Stoness
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Imagemaster wrote:
When taken from the same distance, I do not find the cropped 5D3 + 500 f4 + 1.4x TC image to be any better than a 7D + 500 f4 + 1.4x TC un-cropped image. IMO the 5D3 + 500 f4 + 2x TC does not result in as good a cropped image as the 7D + 500 f4 + 1.4x TC un-cropped image.

Thats my experience too - 5diii cropped to 7d size is not as good. If you need reach 7d is better than cropping.

Apr 22, 2013 at 10:09 PM

Scott Stoness
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

As promised but I got home late - I will retry another time.

This time it looks like the 7d is better. I will have to try tomorrow - the light was fading and I rushed through manual focussing.

5d3 with 2x

7d with 1.4x

5diii with 2x cropped

7d with 1.4x cropped

Apr 22, 2013 at 10:14 PM

RogerC11
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Looks like the roles have reversed in your new crops at lower ISO with the 7d showing more detail at the same shutter speed but lower ISO value. I think that it goes to show that when you need reach and are able to use lower ISO values, there are few tools that will match what the 7d can offer. When it comes to high ISO, the 5diii is the camera to use.

Apr 22, 2013 at 10:19 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Yep, 7D is clearly resolving more detail and noise looks a tad cleaner on the 7D at ISO 640 than ISO 1250 on the 5D III, although it might just be my monitor.

7D WB has resulted in a warmer tone with a greenish cast on my (poor work) monitor.

Apr 22, 2013 at 11:10 PM

Liquidstone
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Scott Stoness wrote:
This time it looks like the 7d is better.

Bingo.

For reach limited shooting, the 7D is my preferred body over ones with larger pixels.

Apr 22, 2013 at 11:28 PM

skibum5
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Pixel Perfect wrote:
7D get's a bad rap for sure. I was looking at some surfing photos last night I took with 7D and 500 f/4 and the level of detail and clarity is superb, all at ISO 400. When the 7D nails it, it's a stellar camera. And no I don't think it's better than a 5D III, but that doesn't detract from it's capabilities.

reach limited 7D,5D2 and 5D3 in cam jpg

Reach limited 7D,5D2 and 5D3 unsharpened RAW

(image order for the above is 7D top, 5D2, 5D3, 7D bottom)

I'd say the 7D pulls in a heck of a lot better detail than the 5D3 (or 5D2). This was low ISO, solid lighting. But I also did the test at ISO6400! And for the admittedly highly contrasty, bright bill subject the 7D still brought in more detail although with quite more noise. But if detail matters more.... Oh and then when I carefully downscaled it to 5D3/5D2 size it had LESS noise, LESS artifacts and STRONGER micro-contrast than the 5D2 image and only a touch more noise, LESS artifacts and STRONGER micro-contrast than the 5D3 image. For a less contrasty and darker subject the noise after downscale falls a bit more behind the 5D3.

I also shot a Hairy Woodpecker, real world usage, 300 2.8 IS + 2x TC at ISO3200 with a 7D and a 5D3 and the 7D delivered the better bird. And I say this as someone who remains with only a 5D3 at this point in time so I am not being biased as to what I own.

Apr 23, 2013 at 04:16 PM

Scott Stoness
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Here is a redo with better lighting and more time to make sure the focus was right.

The resolution is close with maybe a miniscule edge to 7d but the bokeh/noise is way nicer on 5diii.

I would call it a tie.

Scott

Apr 23, 2013 at 08:46 PM

RogerC11
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Seems as though even though the exposures have been "equalized" by ISO compensation on the 5diii, the 7d is still collecting more light I'm guessing due in part to the addition of the 2x on the 5diii. Slight edge still goes to the 7d in these crops but again, the differences in level of detail are so marginal as to not be significant in normal viewing situations.

Apr 23, 2013 at 09:14 PM

Scott Stoness
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

RogerC11 wrote:
Seems as though even though the exposures have been "equalized" by ISO compensation on the 5diii, the 7d is still collecting more light I'm guessing due in part to the addition of the 2x on the 5diii. Slight edge still goes to the 7d in these crops but again, the differences in level of detail are so marginal as to not be significant in normal viewing situations.

I agree with your observations - 7d marginally and for some reason the 2x causes more loss of light than expected.

But I would also add that the 5diii has nicer noise as compared to 7d even though its twice the ISO.

Apr 23, 2013 at 10:13 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Scott Stoness wrote:
I agree with your observations - 7d marginally and for some reason the 2x causes more loss of light than expected.

But I would also add that the 5diii has nicer noise as compared to 7d even though its twice the ISO.

Yes but that noise would easily clean up and would be of zero concern. I'll use the 7D up to ISO 1600 with no hesitation. Also if this were a FL limited scenario and you only had the one lens and the same TC, the 5D III shot would have to be cropped to 8MP to get same FOV and would lose a lot of it's high ISO advantage. If you can make full use of the 5D III pixels with longer lenses and/or TC's it will always rule supreme.

Apr 24, 2013 at 12:41 AM

Monito
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Thanks for testing and posting, Scott.

I do not think the bird house test is valid because of movement of the target in the obvious wind. The redo would be marginally more valid, but I don't like the idea of using an inherently wobbly target, even at 1/800 sec. Also, it doesn't give target area in the corners.

Apr 24, 2013 at 12:53 AM

Scott Stoness
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Monito wrote:
Thanks for testing and posting, Scott.

I do not think the bird house test is valid because of movement of the target in the obvious wind. The redo would be marginally more valid, but I don't like the idea of using an inherently wobbly target, even at 1/800 sec. Also, it doesn't give target area in the corners.

A stationary object would be better but I took about 5 or more and then picked the sharpest one. I also focussed through live view and by manually by eye and chose the sharpest one - to fix the problem you mention. I picked the sharpest of each process.So I think I have managed this problem, plus I don't think it was windy. But good point.

On the edge sharpeness - i agree that its not a good test of edge sharpness. But if I am using a 2x either I am shooting middle and cropping significantly in which case edge sharpness is less critical or the object is big and the edge sharpness/distortion is not as noticable But I take your point that 7d/1.4x might be better on the edges and this would also be good to know. Testing is tough to do right as you have pointed out elsewhere.

Scott

Apr 24, 2013 at 06:14 PM

Scott Stoness
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Pixel Perfect wrote:
Yes but that noise would easily clean up and would be of zero concern. I'll use the 7D up to ISO 1600 with no hesitation. Also if this were a FL limited scenario and you only had the one lens and the same TC, the 5D III shot would have to be cropped to 8MP to get same FOV and would lose a lot of it's high ISO advantage. If you can make full use of the 5D III pixels with longer lenses and/or TC's it will always rule supreme.

I am not sure that I agree with you in total. If you compare photozone.de for 70-200 2.8 on crop camera vs full frame camera you will find that the resolution is significantly reduced. What is happening in my view is that the crop body is only using 2/3 of the lens which results in lower resolution. Thus a 600 mm lens on the 5diii will out resolve a 400mm lens on the 7d even though the 7d is effectively 640mm. So directionally you are right but I assert that you only get about 1/2 the benefit of the effective reach . eg the 7d/400 yields resolution closer to a 5diii with 500mm lens after cropping even though there are less pixels/bird. The pixels on the 7d are not as effective because they are only using 2/3 of the lens..

Apr 24, 2013 at 06:25 PM

Monito
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · 5diii 2.0x III vs 7d 1.4x III Image Quality

Scott Stoness wrote:
If you compare photozone.de for 70-200 2.8 on crop camera vs full frame camera you will find that the resolution is significantly reduced. What is happening in my view is that the crop body is only using 2/3 of the lens which results in lower resolution. Thus a 600 mm lens on the 5diii will out resolve a 400mm lens on the 7d even though the 7d is effectively 640mm.

The crop factor sensor requires greater enlargement than the full-frame sensor to make the same size print.

Thus the blur disks projected onto the crop factor sensor are enlarged more and hence the reduced resolution.

Apr 24, 2013 at 07:00 PM

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