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Archive 2013 · Re-thinking MFT
  
 
httivals
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Re-thinking MFT


I use the OM-D with the Really Right Stuff grip (with the built in "L" plate). It's comfortable. Not quite as compact or comfortable as the GH2, but substantially better image quality, IMHO. I especially like using the OM-D with the EVF set to black and white and then recording both B&W jpegs and color RAWs. The B&W jpegs are excellent.


Apr 22, 2013 at 11:28 PM
Sagar
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Re-thinking MFT


If you are thinking of m43 primarily with primes, you may want to consider Pentax k5 Iis with limiteds. K5 is smaller than GH3 or equal to x-Pro 1 with all limiteds primes are smaller than their near equivalent m43 or fuji lenses. In addition you get much better body with one of the best OVF and fast AF.

And this is from my experience. Coming from APSC I always find m43 images bit flatter like something is missing. There was long thread on flatter feel of m43 here recently. You may want to go through that.



Apr 22, 2013 at 11:34 PM
mawz
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Re-thinking MFT


Sagar wrote:
If you are thinking of m43 primarily with primes, you may want to consider Pentax k5 Iis with limiteds. K5 is smaller than GH3 or equal to x-Pro 1 with all limiteds primes are smaller than their near equivalent m43 or fuji lenses. In addition you get much better body with one of the best OVF and fast AF.

And this is from my experience. Coming from APSC I always find m43 images bit flatter like something is missing. There was long thread on flatter feel of m43 here recently. You may want to go through that.


Actually, while the K-5 IIs has its strengths, the DA Limiteds are pretty much all inferior to the comparable m43 primes, and the AF is nothing to write home about, slower in AF-S than the OM-D by a noticeable but not huge amount and while faster in AF-C, that's damning with faint praise, one does not buy Pentax for AF-C performance, it's pretty bad. The DA Limiteds are also massively overpriced for the performance, the equivalent m43 primes are not only better but cheaper too. The DA Limiteds are good lenses, but only the 70/2.4 and 35/2.8 macro are really excellent (the others are all surpassed by other Pentax lenses in the same range, let alone other options). Oh, and they're slow. Any IQ advantage the K-5 IIs has is more than completely offset by replacing f2.8-f3.2 lenses with f1.4-1.8 lenses. FA Limiteds are another story (much better glass than the DA's in general) but they're bigger, more expensive and are generally oddball FoV's on APS-C.

The OVF is also lousy. Good for an APS-C body (about midway between a D300s and a D7x00 OVF) but there's no such thing as a good APS-C SLR OVF, they all suck in varying amounts. Gimme the OM-D EVF any day. There's a good argument in favour of OVF superiority in FF bodies, but in APS-C they just suck.



Apr 22, 2013 at 11:44 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Re-thinking MFT


Yakim Peled wrote:
Now that I sold my 7D I can seriously think about MFT (my favourite MILC system thus far) but the other day I had a close encounter with a NEX 5R and the FDA-EV1S EVF.

The NEX 5R proved to be way too small for me to comfortably shoot over 20 minutes (my hand actually ache) so it's obvious that I need a bigger camera. If I get the OM-D I'll surely have to get the grip. Either that or to get the GH2 and give up AS.

Which brings me to the EVF issue. The FDA-EV1S has 786,432
...Show more

If you don't like the NEX-5R EVF, you likely won't like the X-E1, as the Fuji doesn't have as fast of a read out. The NEX-6 EVF is apparently noticeably better than both.



Apr 22, 2013 at 11:54 PM
Glenn NK
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Re-thinking MFT


Jman13 wrote:
Define 'best.'

Image quality wise, the Fuji produces cleaner files with deeper color depth and probably slightly better dynamic range. I think the files from the OM-D have a little more detail in them. The Fuji has about a 1-stop ISO advantage and cleaner base ISO.

I did a quick ISO test here: http://admiringlight.com/blog/mirrorless-battle-om-d-vs-gh3-vs-x-e1/

As far as handling goes, the X-E1 is easier to pick up and shoot with due to the simple and effective controls (aperture ring, shutter speed dial, EC dial, etc).

The OM-D stomps the X-E1 in overall responsiveness. The AF is significantly faster, especially in low light,
...Show more

Define "best" - good point - I get annoyed when people ask what is the best lens/camera/tripod/filter/etc.

Looking extensively at RAW files DL'd from DPReview for the X-E1 and E-M5, and your posted reviews, I'd agree with your comments. I thought there was a bit more detail (sharper) in the Oly files. In the DPR files, the Fuji seemed to me to be freer of noise, but softer.

And, as Yakim, I liked your reviews and comments - thanks for putting in the effort.

My overall gut feeling is that the Oly would be a better choice for me.

Glenn





Apr 23, 2013 at 12:29 AM
Spyro P.
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Re-thinking MFT


I also think the Oly is a more mature system at the moment.

On the other hand, I think we have spent enough time comparing EVFs, and not enough time discussing what a photographer can do with a hybrid VF. Whatever Fuji's EVF deficiencies are, you can eliminate them entirely with the push of a button, the one that switches to OVF. Switching back and forth is not something any of us is comfortable with because it's a new way of working which I think hasn't been explored enough. I've been shooting Fuji X for 2 years now and I'm still building the muscle memory to do it without thinking, depending on the needs of the particular image and how I want to shoot it. I'm getting there, and still amazed at the possibilities.

I also think that the biggest milestone for the system is yet to come, and that's when the improvements made in the x100s flow into the system cameras. Worth waiting for in my opinion. While building up my lens collection



Apr 23, 2013 at 12:52 AM
kwalsh
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Re-thinking MFT


mawz wrote:
The OVF is also lousy. Good for an APS-C body (about midway between a D300s and a D7x00 OVF) but there's no such thing as a good APS-C SLR OVF, they all suck in varying amounts. Gimme the OM-D EVF any day. There's a good argument in favour of OVF superiority in FF bodies, but in APS-C they just suck.


My experience moving from APS-C DSLRs to m43 EVFs was similar. I expected to not like the EVF, in the end it made me realize just how much the APS-C OVFs absolutely suck. Worthless is the only word for them really. Even with a split prism practically impossible to focus. Now I still do like a good FF OVF, but at least for my shooting the EVF is still more practical. Though two definite limitations to the EVF - low dynamic range if trying to stare into the deep shadows while composing (a rare thing but it happens) and of course burst shooting. On the whole though, I've now come to realize that if I ever go FF it will only be with a excellent live-view system and EVF.

The Fuji hybrid VF sure looks cute, though I haven't tried it yet. Seems better suited to a fixed lens camera though.



Apr 23, 2013 at 01:04 AM
bigkidneys
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Re-thinking MFT


I have had both cameras plus the XP1 and am about to get one again but am on the fence again... I shoot mostly my teenagers and my friends as well as love long exposures. The file differences between the two in my eyes(not a professional) seem negligible. The live bulb feature on the Oly is icing on the cake for me and the PL25 and 45 are literally must haves for the Oly. Almost all the Olys primes are good. The Fuji 35 is excellent as well and I really liked the 18-55. The Fuji 60 was good too but didn't use it that much. The Fuji UI was simple and easy. Only the Oly was difficult as it has so many options to customize so in truth, actually great in a way. From what I gather the Fuji lenses are coming out and seem to be building upon their reputation of quality lenses that are fairly cheap. Where the two bodies certainly differ is AF with the Oly taking it. Really depends on what you need. As far as IQ goes, to me they look very similar but to each his own. I will likely just get the one that I can get a better deal on...


Apr 23, 2013 at 01:14 AM
802walker
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Re-thinking MFT


I had an OM-D and it's fast and responsive, but I didn't like the experience of shooting with it. I got an XE-1 and love it. It's not as responsive, but I love shooting with it. To me, it feels more like how a traditional camera should feel. I love the aperture ring, I love the manual controls. The menu system is, in my opinion, FAR superior to the OM-D. I also basically stopped shooting RAW because the JPEGS OOC are so damn beautiful. If you shoot fast moving objects...get the OMD


Apr 23, 2013 at 01:21 AM
itai195
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Re-thinking MFT


The Live Bulb feature is definitely innovative, but without a live histogram it's a bit of a gimmick really.

Both systems are very compelling. Not to take away anything from the E-M5, which I've owned much longer than my X-E1, but the X-E1 is the camera I prefer shooting with and the one I'd keep. Though quirkier in many ways, I just think Fuji's approach to camera design is superior.



Apr 23, 2013 at 01:23 AM
 

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Yakim Peled
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Re-thinking MFT


mawz wrote:
[...] there's no such thing as a good APS-C SLR OVF, they all suck in varying amounts. Gimme the OM-D EVF any day. There's a good argument in favour of OVF superiority in FF bodies, but in APS-C they just suck.


I really like the OVF on the 7D. Significant improvement over that of the 40D which I had before. Shooting side by side with all 5D models in the past 2 years I can't say I felt those of the FF were significantly better. They felt about the same to me. Maybe it's because of the screen magnification (72% vs. 100%). I don't know. All I know is that I never felt my 7D is inferior in that regard to FF (and I really like big and bright OVF).

Sony's EVF to the 7D's OVF? That is what I'd call lousy.

Happy shooting,
Yakim.



Apr 23, 2013 at 07:17 AM
mawz
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · Re-thinking MFT


Yakim Peled wrote:
I really like the OVF on the 7D. Significant improvement over that of the 40D which I had before. Shooting side by side with all 5D models in the past 2 years I can't say I felt those of the FF were significantly better. They felt about the same to me. Maybe it's because of the screen magnification (72% vs. 100%). I don't know. All I know is that I never felt my 7D is inferior in that regard to FF (and I really like big and bright OVF).

Sony's EVF to the 7D's OVF? That is what I'd call
...Show more

The 7D has one of the better APS-C SLR's, but it's significantly smaller and dimmer than the 5D's already mediocre (by FF standards) OVF. The 7D has the equivalent of a 0.63x magnification FF finder, FAR smaller than the 5D's 0.72x and a lot closer to the 40D's 0.59x equivalent than to the 5D's finder (all finders are measured with a 50mm lens, so you need to multiply the magnification by the inverse crop factor to find the 35mm-equivalent magnification in order to get a comparable idea of the size). Note by calling the 5D's finder mediocre, I'm not referring to its specs, which are decent, but the actual implementation which is simply not as good as some other finders with comparable specs (1-series, A850, etc).

The Sony EVF is comparable in actual magnification to the 5D (in fact it's almost identical in projected size, at 0.71x). If you like big (as I do), there's no comparison with the 7D, the Sony EVF simply stomps it. In terms of brightness it varies, the 7D will be brighter in bright daylight, the EVF will be brighter any other time. In terms of ability to focus accurately there's no contest, the 7D, like all other APS-C DSLR's, is difficult to focus manually in any light (it can be done with practice though), the Sony EVF is much easier to focus with even before focus aids like peaking and magnification.



Apr 23, 2013 at 12:35 PM
justruss
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · Re-thinking MFT


Yakim, why the move away from 7d in the first place? You seem to want to go mirrorless, but your main concern is size-- that is, getting something bigger rather than smaller.

Why not just get a small DSLR with a newish sensor. Canon. Save yourself the trouble.




Apr 23, 2013 at 01:11 PM
Mescalamba
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · Re-thinking MFT


Sony SLT?


Apr 23, 2013 at 03:02 PM
resante
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · Re-thinking MFT


Having an X-E1 with 35mm and OM-D with PL 25mm in my possession over the weekend I can echo what most here have said.

- Focus: OM-D without a doubt. Instant single shot AF. The Fuji is decent in good light but as things get dim it wants to hunt. I don't know if their other lenses are any better in this regard.

- Video: OM-D all day. In body stabilization is amazing and you have many more options. Fuji is limited to 24fps 1080 or 720.

- Ergonomics - a draw, both are small but the OM-D seemed more cramped. I think the grip would solve this but by that point I wonder how close I'd be to a dslr.

- Image quality - hmm. Someone else said it, the OM-D had more detail at a given aperture. I would like to try more lenses before jumping to a conclusion on this. I like the Fuji jpeg options, noticeably less noise at base and high ISO. I'm able to get a thin DOF similar to my old 5D and 50/35L. Thin enough for me, anyway. The OM-D with 25PL wasn't quite there but was still good. I can't put my finger on it but some shots just made me think "this looks like a REALLY good point and shoot". The Fuji reminded me a lot of the 5D.

For my needs it is a tough choice. Fuji menu simplicity, IQ, aperture ring on lenses (yes!), high ISO... OM-D AF, stabilization, lens selection. I think if the OM-D had an APS-C sensor instead of MFT it would be a no brainer for me. I really want to see where Fuji is in 2 years. They have some good looking lenses on the roadmap and if they can get a real AF system in the next X Pro I'll be excited about it. Right now for me either choice will be a compromise of some kind.



Apr 23, 2013 at 03:32 PM
bobbytan
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · Re-thinking MFT


The OM-D and X-E1 both have a "traditional" look or form factor ... the OM-D has a retro DSLR look and feel and the X-E1 is very much like an old rangefinder camera.

The GH3 is definitely a lot more comfortable to hold and to use, but the OM-D isn't too bad with the horizontal grip ... but the tiny buttons suck, and operationally it sucks even more. But I do like the form factor with its pentaprism-like housing, and the line of lenses is very impressive to say the least. The OM-D is definitely closer to a full-systems camera than any other MILC.

I do like the ergonomics of the GH3 but the lack of IBIS is a deal breaker for me, as I can shoot macro with the OM-D and 60 macro lens hand held - and get images that are as good or better than what I could get with my retired 5D II and 100L macro lens.

Olympus is rumored to be announcing a new and better OM-D later this year ... and I am pretty certain that it will come with a newer kick-ass Sony sensor. Maybe the thing for you to do is to get a used or refurbished OM-D or GH3 ... and then get the OM-D Mk II when its released.

802walker wrote:
I had an OM-D and it's fast and responsive, but I didn't like the experience of shooting with it. I got an XE-1 and love it. It's not as responsive, but I love shooting with it. To me, it feels more like how a traditional camera should feel. I love the aperture ring, I love the manual controls. The menu system is, in my opinion, FAR superior to the OM-D. I also basically stopped shooting RAW because the JPEGS OOC are so damn beautiful. If you shoot fast moving objects...get the OMD




Apr 23, 2013 at 03:37 PM
itai195
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · Re-thinking MFT


Or wait for the G7, which if I'm not mistaken is due to be released this month?


Apr 23, 2013 at 04:08 PM
kwalsh
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · Re-thinking MFT


itai195 wrote:
Or wait for the G7, which if I'm not mistaken is due to be released this month?


I think it is actually the G6 (the current model is the G5). And the announcement is expected early tomorrow morning (Wednesday). Early rumors are similar size to the G5 and video capabilities on par with the GH2. Not sure which sensor it will have.



Apr 23, 2013 at 05:04 PM
bobbytan
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · Re-thinking MFT


Not good if the sensor is an older one than the GH3 ... because the GH3 sensor is "only" as good as the OM-D sensor.

http://m43blog.com/tag/panasonic-g7/

itai195 wrote:
Or wait for the G7, which if I'm not mistaken is due to be released this month?




Apr 23, 2013 at 05:11 PM
bobbytan
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · Re-thinking MFT


This is a strong argument if you don't really need the smallest/lightest system. The new T5i or SL1 could be good options if you already own some EF-S lenses. You would be saving some weight but still have the heft and feel of a regular DSLR.

justruss wrote:
Yakim, why the move away from 7d in the first place? You seem to want to go mirrorless, but your main concern is size-- that is, getting something bigger rather than smaller.

Why not just get a small DSLR with a newish sensor. Canon. Save yourself the trouble.





Apr 23, 2013 at 05:20 PM
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