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Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...
  
 
veroman
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p.1 #1 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


LARGE FILES ATTACHED.

This is a continuation of a discussion that was started here http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1203219/3#11484931

I thought I'd like to start a thread of images, all shot with the 500D/t1i after having the AA filter removed. All were shot handheld. Some images are decidedly sharper than others. Camera shake may have taken its toll on one or two.
- Steve


























Edited on Apr 22, 2013 at 10:55 PM · View previous versions



Apr 16, 2013 at 04:35 PM
veroman
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p.1 #2 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


A couple more:












Edited on Apr 22, 2013 at 10:56 PM · View previous versions



Apr 16, 2013 at 04:37 PM
Ben Horne
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p.1 #3 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


It seems like you're also getting quite a few more artifacts in some of these highly detailed areas. Do you have any low ISO samples to compare? It looks like you've done some noise reduction and also some sharpening that has amplified the artifacts. I find that in most cases, the AA filter prevents the images from looking overly digital in the way that fine detail is rendered. When it's removed, the images certainly get a bit sharper, but at the expense of some weird detail at times that gives a very "digital" look.


Apr 16, 2013 at 05:05 PM
veroman
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p.1 #4 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Ben Horne wrote:
It seems like you're also getting quite a few more artifacts in some of these highly detailed areas. Do you have any low ISO samples to compare? It looks like you've done some noise reduction and also some sharpening that has amplified the artifacts. I find that in most cases, the AA filter prevents the images from looking overly digital in the way that fine detail is rendered. When it's removed, the images certainly get a bit sharper, but at the expense of some weird detail at times that gives a very "digital" look.


Thank you for your comments. I don't think the presence of an AA filter makes images look any more or any less "digital" than a camera without a filter. I've owned and used many cameras with stock AA filters whose full sized images looked a lot more "digital" than my 100% crops.

In any event, if you're suggesting that the images I've posted exhibit aliasing (false detail), yes, they do in some areas. If you're also suggesting there's some noise evident, yes, there's noise (the t1i, though better than the 50D in the noise department, starts to show noise as low as ISO 400).

I would only remind you again that what you're looking at are 100% crops from a 15MP camera. Download an ISO 400 image at preview.com from any 15MP APC DSLR (or higher, such as the t4i) and look at a processed 100% crop from any of its images. Even with an AA filter in place, the images will exhibit artifacts of one kind or another ... but they will be lacking the same high level of detail as from my t1i. I also think that one's reactions to my post will be somewhat dependent on one's monitor and other viewing factors. On my Apple 30" Cinema Display, these images look quite good as crops, if not exceptional. Any and all of the artifacts and noise you cite disappear in a 16" X 24" print. The large prints are simply amazing.
- Steve



Apr 16, 2013 at 07:51 PM
leftymgp
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p.1 #5 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Kind of looks like you've applied some sharpening in post.


Apr 17, 2013 at 02:43 AM
veroman
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p.1 #6 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


leftymgp wrote:
Kind of looks like you've applied some sharpening in post.

Of course I did.
- Steve



Apr 17, 2013 at 02:59 AM
leftymgp
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p.1 #7 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Doesn't that skew the results a bit? I would think that a comparison of unaltered images would more fitting.


Apr 18, 2013 at 04:23 AM
veroman
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p.1 #8 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


leftymgp wrote:
Doesn't that skew the results a bit? I would think that a comparison of unaltered images would more fitting.

Results of what? I'm not comparing anything. These are 100% crops of processed images, that's all. I can upload unsharpened versions if you want to see them. They'll just look a bit softer, that's all.
- Steve



Apr 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM
ct8282
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p.1 #9 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


I'm not so sure these pics are really promoting the IQ of your camera in the way maybe you were intending or hoping. They look muffled, full of artifacts and a couple just look damn ugly to be honest.

It seems that you're trying to demonstrate the virtue of removing the AA filter, yet you explain yourself that some have been affected by camera shake, and that you have saved them as medium quality jpegs and that 'losses are noticeable' to you.

So exactly what were you hoping to show based on these things??



Apr 18, 2013 at 12:28 PM
chez
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p.1 #10 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Very crispy looking with over sharpening resulting in artifacts. Don't know if this is due to no AA filter or post processing....but which ever it is, I don't particularly like the end results.


Apr 18, 2013 at 12:52 PM
 

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veroman
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p.1 #11 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Ok ... let's go about this a little differently. First shot is entire scene, re-sized for web. Second shot is 100% crop of the original:












Edited on Apr 18, 2013 at 09:10 PM · View previous versions



Apr 18, 2013 at 08:04 PM
mirkoc
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p.1 #12 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


It would be really interesting to see some kind of direct comparison. Thanks so far for these.


Apr 18, 2013 at 09:06 PM
veroman
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p.1 #13 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


mirkoc wrote:
It would be really interesting to see some kind of direct comparison. Thanks so far for these.

I've been considering shooting my filter-less t1i/500D alongside my 5D and 40D, tripod mount. It's just a matter of finding the time. Thanks for your comments and interest.
- Steve



Apr 18, 2013 at 09:10 PM
Ben Horne
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p.1 #14 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


I took your 100% crop of the house scene into photoshop, and added a 0.3 pixel gaussian blur, then did a touch of color noise reduction. The 0.3 pixel gaussian blur helps to get rid of the ultra sharp high contrast detail, such as the tips of the branches against the white siding on the house, or the stepping lines along the vertical lines of the chairs. I used the color noise reduction to get rid of all those false color artifacts in the tree bark, and the roof tiles. Many people think of moire patterns in the obvious form such as screen material or brick walls at a distance, but these artifacts are present in most subjects. The only way I've found to get rid of them is by adding just a hair of color noise reduction.

The steps I took in photoshop are essentially what the AA filter does automatically. Though it is indeed possibly to get a sharper image, it isn't necessarily a good thing. I've personally found that that filter is there for a reason, and it really does help save time in the digital dark room.



Apr 19, 2013 at 02:41 AM
veroman
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p.1 #15 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Ben Horne wrote:
I took your 100% crop of the house scene into photoshop, and added a 0.3 pixel gaussian blur, then did a touch of color noise reduction. The 0.3 pixel gaussian blur helps to get rid of the ultra sharp high contrast detail, such as the tips of the branches against the white siding on the house, or the stepping lines along the vertical lines of the chairs. I used the color noise reduction to get rid of all those false color artifacts in the tree bark, and the roof tiles. Many people think of moire patterns in the obvious
...Show more

Ben: thanks for posting and for your effort. However, I see no stepping lines on the chairs on my monitor (an Apple 30" Cinema Display) ... not in the 100% crop and certainly not in the full size image. The stepping can sometimes be the result of an interference of patterns between fine detail in an image and the nature of one's monitor. I see a hint of the stepping on my Macbook Air. Zoom out on the image slightly and see if the stepping is removed.

Yes, there's a touch of color noise on the rooftops, but it disappears completely when the full size image is printed ... as does some of the roof detail unfortunately. The roof, after all, occupies only a minor portion of the picture! I also question whether or not applying gaussian blur and a touch of noise reduction is what "an AA filter does automatically."

Based on your post, I would assume that you don't consider the Leica M9/M-E, Nikon D800E, Nikon D7100, Pentax K-5 IIs, Sigma SD1 Merrill and Sigma Merrill Compacts to be good choices as camera bodies.

- Steve




Apr 19, 2013 at 01:36 PM
Ben Horne
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p.1 #16 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


veroman wrote:
Ben: thanks for posting and for your effort. However, I see no stepping lines on the chairs on my monitor (an Apple 30" Cinema Display) ... not in the 100% crop and certainly not in the full size image. The stepping can sometimes be the result of an interference of patterns between fine detail in an image and the nature of one's monitor. I see a hint of the stepping on my Macbook Air. Zoom out on the image slightly and see if the stepping is removed.

Yes, there's a touch of color noise on the rooftops, but it disappears completely
...Show more

I've been at this for quite some time, so I can assure you it's not simply that I don't know how to use my monitor. This is while viewing the image 100% on my calibrated Apple cinema display. Cameras without a AA filter have difficulty with lines that are almost vertical, or almost horizontal. They develop a stair step appearance.

With regard to many of the non AA cameras out there, it is true that I'm not a big fan of them. I find that the lack of an AA filter does more harm than good. This is also based on my experience with the original canon 1D that had a very weak AA filter combined with a CCD sensor. I spent a lot of time getting rid of false color readings from that camera.

There is a perception out there that removing the AA filter will provide a much better image, and that this filter hinders detail. However, that filter is there for a reason. In my experience, any benefit you receive by increased sharpness is negated by "crunchy" looking fine detail, and false color readings. Dealing with these artifacts essentially brings you back to square one.

Here's an example of a D800E shot with artifacts I consider to be very bad.
http://www.dpreview.com/galleries/reviewsamples/photos/2015997/08dsc_0175-c1?inalbum=nikon-d800e-review-samples View the original image at 100%, and look at the houses in the background. You'll see some very weird looking things. Dots in the trees, stair stepping lines on the wood siding on the house, and some obvious moire patterns in many areas. I did the same thing with this shot that I did with your example. I had to add some blur to make it look normal.

I've found that in print, the detail from cameras lacking AA filters ends up looking very "digital". It's as though fine detail such as grass looks more like little shapes rather than something more organic. This is why I chose the D800 over the D800E. I can always add a hair of sharpening to make up for the AA filter, but I don't have to deal with "crunchy" detail and false color readings. The AA filter takes care of all that for me.




Apr 19, 2013 at 02:35 PM
veroman
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p.1 #17 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Ben Horne wrote:
.... There is a perception out there that removing the AA filter will provide a much better image, and that this filter hinders detail. However, that filter is there for a reason. In my experience, any benefit you receive by increased sharpness is negated by "crunchy" looking fine detail, and false color readings. Dealing with these artifacts essentially brings you back to square one.


"I was particularly interested to see if the removal of the AA filter meant better quality images, and whether or not there was any trade off in the other qualities of the camera.

(The AA filter present in most cameras has always been there because without it interference patterns (moire) can appear in fine detail. Slightly blurring the image prevents this, but the consequence is that images then need to be sharpened post-capture. Unsharp Mask in Photoshop is one effective way to do this, although the “sharpening” depends on our contrast perception and is an illusion. However, images look crisp and sharp, so the technique is effective.)

The result is amazing. Examining the images shot on both camera, especially impressive is how a fine tangled mass of branches suddenly becomes clear. How lovely hair texture becomes amazing hair texture. How the surfaces of decaying metalwork come alive with fine detail. This is perfect for detailed, texture-filled subject matter, such as landscapes and architecture, close-ups and macro, and, pleasingly, even portraiture. In the case of portraits we may have to diffuse slightly with some subjects, but we might anyway.

The K-5 IIs which seems to require little or no sharpening and adds a micro-clarity to the texture of subjects. It may be a matter of taste, but I can only say that speaking for myself I am very impressed.

That only leaves the question of moire, and try as I might I could not make it a problem. I have no doubt that as we have been warned of the possibility there may be circumstances, but the instruction book advises that using wider apertures than f/8 will reduce the possibility. Diffraction at smaller apertures can add to the moire effect, although I see no evidence of it so far."

— From the review of the Pentax K-5 IIs, ephotozine.com



Apr 19, 2013 at 07:21 PM
Ben Horne
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p.1 #18 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


veroman wrote:
"I was particularly interested to see if the removal of the AA filter meant better quality images, and whether or not there was any trade off in the other qualities of the camera.

(The AA filter present in most cameras has always been there because without it interference patterns (moire) can appear in fine detail. Slightly blurring the image prevents this, but the consequence is that images then need to be sharpened post-capture. Unsharp Mask in Photoshop is one effective way to do this, although the “sharpening” depends on our contrast perception and is an illusion. However, images look crisp and
...Show more

Mmmmmm... Okay...



Apr 19, 2013 at 10:39 PM
veroman
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p.1 #19 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


One more:








Apr 23, 2013 at 03:01 AM
rrxjon
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p.1 #20 · Some new images from my Canon 500D/t1i without AA filter ...


Whatever "look" it is, I like 'em.


Apr 23, 2013 at 03:30 AM
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