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Archive 2013 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

ayler
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

Can we please have a thread just about the X100s X-Trans funkiness (by which I mean everything and anything that is deemed an artefact) in RAW? Examples both with and without (or next-to-no) funkiness followed by RAW developer settings applied would be great. And some brainy dipping into how the X-Trans works, and what is possible now and may be possible in the future, by more scientific minds would be good too.

I've checked possibly 100s of images and sometimes there's a lot of it and sometimes none that is perceptible without pixel peeping @ 200%, so it's one of those cases of more pixel peeping leading to more confusion (so I want more of it to settle this in my head once and for all!). In the DPReview comparison 'torture' tool, results are quite bad IMMO, in sections where there is a cross pattern of any kind, such as in the bank note faces. There are also areas that are turned almost into monochrome and the reds look blocked. However, most of what I've seen in 'real world' examples seems to be better than the DPReview torture test. Could be the DPReview Lightroom settings, could just be that output from Lightroom is like that...

To give an idea about how I feel about these things, I much prefer a camera with a strong low-pass filter (such as the A900, the A99 or the K5), than one with a weak or no filter (like the D600 I'm currently struggling with, whose files are very prone to moire): a slightly softer image I can always sharpen up, but moire takes ages to clean up and you need to pixel-peep every single image. The X-Trans seems, from all the samples I've checked, sometimes to be on the softer but more natural camp, until you hit the funkiness and it all goes weird indeed.

So, my selfish interest is in ascertaining the extent of the funkiness and what types of images are prone. But also to explore what may be possible and whether there are signs that the RAWs will eventually come out clean, no matter what type of image, with better support (or if this is a trait of the sensor and there'll be improvements but no absolute workaround). But this may also be useful to others who haven't made up their minds or who have bought the camera, but would like to exchange ideas about how to process, etc.

I haven't bought the camera (yet), but bar the big question mark that is the X-Trans sensor, it seems to offer everything I could have wished for in a small take-everywhere package: good manual focus implementation, perfect focal length for me, faster AF, better hybrid VF, old-school operation, leaf-shutter, etc, etc.

I thought this could be a separate thread from the XP1, X20 and X E1, because the x100s apparently has a new processor and it has a fixed lens. It'd be good if this thread served as a gathering point for everything and anything X100s RAW.

Apologies for the long post.

Apr 03, 2013 at 06:44 AM

vaflower
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

I really like Fuji lenses and the main reason that I put off buying into Fuji is the X-Tran sensor. I am not that much concerned about the "funkiness" since it is a few instances here and there. The biggest concern I have is the general flatness of the color and the inability to"guess" correctly color information of the X-Tran sensor. Most of the reviewers pretty much agree that X-Tran sensor is actually worse than the conventional sensor.

I hope it is just short-term since I like Fuji design and lenses.

Apr 03, 2013 at 06:47 PM

Jman13
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

I don't know...I really love the output from my X-E1. Beautiful tonality...really rich, to be honest, and great clean files.

Apr 03, 2013 at 06:57 PM

ayler
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

vaflower wrote:
I really like Fuji lenses and the main reason that I put off buying into Fuji is the X-Tran sensor. I am not that much concerned about the "funkiness" since it is a few instances here and there. The biggest concern I have is the general flatness of the color and the inability to"guess" correctly color information of the X-Tran sensor. Most of the reviewers pretty much agree that X-Tran sensor is actually worse than the conventional sensor.

I hope it is just short-term since I like Fuji design and lenses.

Yes, you can see that in the DPReview image comparison tool, where with the X100s' RAWs there are areas that go almost monochrome, but which, by comparison, with any conventional Bayer sensor still retain colour info. I wonder if this is something that cleverer algorithms will eventually mitigate to the point of little difference to a Bayer sensor, or if this is as good as it gets.

But what 'scares' me the most is how the sensor resolves areas of tight pattern, such as the faces in the bank notes, that just look weird and would not be possible to reconstruct without sort of repainting, by relocating pixels or something similar. It's not colour moire, which can be brushed out to an extent, but a sort of funky grid that collapses onto itself.

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:15 PM

charley51
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

Im with you jman.Since ive got my x100s my omd is collecting dust..Im new to fuji but the output for me
(Ex1 xpro1) really nice for my taste..

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:20 PM

corposant
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

Coolpix A, RX1, Nex with CZ 24mm... no shortage of options these days if you are losing sleep thinking about this.

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:27 PM

J_Andrew
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

Lightroom 4.4 now includes better support for the xtrans sensor and x100s. Perhaps this will cure the funkiness, at least on the RAW side.

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:28 PM

ayler
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

charley51 wrote:
Im with you jman.Since ive got my x100s my omd is collecting dust..Im new to fuji but the output for me
(Ex1 xpro1) really nice for my taste..

charley51 and jman,

I'm not trying to bash the camera or anything. It's clear that there are still some problems with RAW support, but also that the X-Trans can produce some great output, especially SOOC. The form factor is almost a bull's eye for me, that's why I'm interested in discussing/finding out about the extent of the problems and whether it's more on the side of the sensor (which would be bad) or on the side of RAW support at this stage (which would give me hope). Also some will be more sensitive to this than others; same way as some rave about low-pass-filter-less Bayer sensors, moire and all, where others (like me) rave about sort of 'benign' strong-low-pass-filter sensors, softer but with no 'nasties'.

It's just trying to open this to discussion, preferably with people uploading qualified examples and discussing RAW settings, etc.

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:40 PM

Mescalamba
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

COP7 seemed decent too.

As usually with Fuji, if you print it or not view up to 100%, its fine.

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:41 PM

ayler
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

corposant wrote:
Coolpix A, RX1, Nex with CZ 24mm... no shortage of options these days if you are losing sleep thinking about this.

Coolpix A is AA-less and 28mm equiv, doesn't interest me in the slightest; RX1 is way too expensive for a fixed lens with slow AF and poor implementation of MF (plus a VF is half the price of the X100s); Nex is also weak AA and lots of button presses and menu diving. The X100/s is the right concept for me operationally, so my main focus for a small cam (bar doubts about the X-Trans) lies here.

Also, this could be a thread for those who own it to discuss ideas and those who don't to feed on that. If there's nothing to discuss, it will die a natural death, which is also fine...

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:48 PM

corposant
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

The US is usually last in line to get anything from Fuji, but you will probably get a lot of people who have other Fuji cameras (me included) who will tell you that you have nothing to worry about. So... be prepared to get a lot non-technical responses in that spirit. I bought mine more for the colors/tones over detail, but frankly (and I use Capture One, but also just updated my LR today), the detail hasn't disappointed. As much as I would enjoy feeding you examples of shots gone wrong... I don't have any.

Apr 03, 2013 at 07:56 PM

ayler
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

corposant wrote:
The US is usually last in line to get anything from Fuji, but you will probably get a lot of people who have other Fuji cameras (me included) who will tell you that you have nothing to worry about. So... be prepared to get a lot non-technical responses in that spirit. I bought mine more for the colors/tones over detail, but frankly (and I use Capture One, but also just updated my LR today), the detail hasn't disappointed. As much as I would enjoy feeding you examples of shots gone wrong... I don't have any.

OK, that's a start. Maybe your processing bests (and I'm not being ironic) DPReview's? I've just been to the Imaging Resource Comparometer and in the still-life the fabric swatches are all over the shop, as is the PS 69, but the bottles and the rest are all swell. Care to post some crops of fabrics, patterns, that sort of thing?

Apr 03, 2013 at 08:05 PM

sebboh
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

ayler wrote:
OK, that's a start. Maybe your processing bests (and I'm not being ironic) DPReview's? I've just been to the Imaging Resource Comparometer and in the still-life the fabric swatches are all over the shop, as is the PS 69, but the bottles and the rest are all swell. Care to post some crops of fabrics, patterns, that sort of thing?

do you shoot fabrics don't have people in them often?

Apr 03, 2013 at 08:43 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

There have been some major improvements with the raw processors, particularly ACR, in dealing with the X-Trans sensor...but the "funkiness" is still there (I think it's inherent with the X-Trnas and it's in both jpegs and raws). That said, most who use the X100S will likely never experience it since it really would only show up with specific subject matter (foliage, intricate, fine tree branches) printed at larger sizes - say 24" x 36" or larger. For the typical uses the X100S, and other X-Trans Fuji cameras see (editorial, people, street and candid shots), I don't think this would be an issue and likely never be encountered.

Here is probably a worst case example. Shot today with the X100S processed in ACR 7 and re-sized to 24"x36" @ 240PPI using Alien Skin Blow Up. This is a 100% crop so the print would look a little better but it's certainly nothing I would accept as passable. As far as what accentuates the artifact, it's anything that increases contrast, including Clarity and Sharpening.
http://www.gibranstudio.com/x100s.jpg

Apr 03, 2013 at 09:00 PM

itai195
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

Tariq, was that ACR 7.4?

Apr 03, 2013 at 09:46 PM

Tariq Gibran
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

itai195 wrote:
Tariq, was that ACR 7.4?

Yes, it is ACR 7.4 final, just released today. Silkypix that comes with the X100S is just as bad - actually worse as it suffers some moire/ color aliasing as well.

I do want to emphasis though that this is at a pretty big enlargement of known troublesome subject matter for the X-Trans. At 100% native size, it's not a problem...unless you're really picky.

Here is a link to the raw file used for the above enlarged crop:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5540407/_DSF0026.RAF

Apr 03, 2013 at 09:59 PM

zlatko
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

Tariq Gibran wrote:
Yes, it is ACR 7.4 final, just released today. Silkypix that comes with the X100S is just as bad - actually worse as it suffers some moire/ color aliasing as well.

I do want to emphasis though that this is at a pretty big enlargement of known troublesome subject matter for the X-Trans. At 100% native size, it's not a problem...unless you're really picky.

Here is a link to the raw file used for the above enlarged crop:

https://dl.dropbox.com/u/5540407/_DSF0026.RAF

Thanks for the link to the raw file. I was very worried when I saw your crop above, but I am very relieved after seeing the raw file. As you mentioned, your crop is a pretty big enlargement of the original file. It represents close to a 200% view of the original file. It also seems to have some extra clarity or sharpening. When viewed at a true 100% and with default clarity and sharpening, it looks quite good to me. That would be a print of about 13 x 20 inches at 240 pixels per inch. Someone intent on printing a detailed landscape at 24 x 36 inches should really be using a larger format than APS-C.

Apr 03, 2013 at 11:22 PM

itai195
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

I don't know, I bet I could print a nice landscape at 24 x 36 from my DP2M. I probably wouldn't use my X-E1 or X100s for that, though, that's what I have the Sigma for.

Apr 03, 2013 at 11:32 PM

zlatko
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

itai195 wrote:
I don't know, I bet I could print a nice landscape at 24 x 36 from my DP2M. I probably wouldn't use my X-E1 or X100s for that, though, that's what I have the Sigma for.

You can definitely print it at 24x36". Just don't expect a medium format look. When I apply default sharpening in ACR and bicubic smoother enlargement in Photoshop, it really looks ok. I don't get that obvious watercolor effect. Maybe very slightly in some sections, but nothing to worry about. And that's a very big print.

Apr 03, 2013 at 11:47 PM

justruss
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Fujifilm X100s 'Funkiness'

I think Tariq's point was: The problem is there, but it usually doesn't make itself obvious or ruin a shot.

As I mentioned in another thread-- for which I was pilloried-- I wouldn't buy an XTrans sensor for a dedicated landscape shooter since, in my experience, these are the sorts of images that most draw out the funkiness while at the same time inspire pixel-peeping and large-size printing.

I love my XE, by the way. I hardly ever take my 5d2 out except for work. I'd love to replace my 5d2 w/ a second X camera, but that won't happen until a few things are changed (and perhaps won't ever happen if Canon can both slowly reduce the size of FF and improve sensor output faster than Fuji or someone else in the mirrorless world can catch up).

Apr 04, 2013 at 02:23 AM

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