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Archive 2013 · Nikon D4x soon I hope
  
 
sic0048
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


honorerdieu wrote:
The D800's MP is more than enough for me. If I ever need more, I'll start considering a jump to digital medium format.



It's not the resolution that is lacking on the D800, it is the build quality of the body. The D3/D4 series bodies are rugged. The D800 body isn't. I've spoken to pros that are still shooting the D3x over the D800 because of this issue alone. Those types of shooters are certainly looking for a D4 type body with a sensor like the D800. Rumor has it that something along those lines is coming from Nikon.



Mar 16, 2013 at 03:09 PM
sjms
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


do you need a body built like an APC?


Mar 16, 2013 at 04:41 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Given that the d7100 sensor seems to be a winner, I could see them using the same wafer for a 54mp d4x camera. Of course that depends on what that design team is looking at. If they are already well down the road, it could be a tweaked 36mp sensor or who knows what in-between.

I think 54mp would be incredible, but I wouldn't be a buyer for it anymore than I was for the d3x. I love my large pro d3s body and would rather all of my future cameras be the large pro style, but I hate the prices that go with them.

But, TBH, as much as I like my d800, I'm just as happy with the d3s and d7k files and I'd be just as happy with a d400 at about 16mp or so. Maybe I'm too easy to please, but that doesn't matter. You guys are more than welcome to have whatever they come up with. Just because I don't need it, doesn't make me think that nobody does.

Kerry



Mar 16, 2013 at 05:32 PM
jbonzo1
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


I think Nikon is waiting for Canon to release their new flagship then they will announce the D4X.
I hope it's sooner rather than later so I can grab a cheap D3X!



Mar 16, 2013 at 05:56 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Given that the d7100 sensor seems to be a winner, I could see them using the same wafer for a 54mp d4x camera. Of course that depends on what that design team is looking at. If they are already well down the road, it could be a tweaked 36mp sensor or who knows what in-between.

I think 54mp would be incredible, but I wouldn't be a buyer for it anymore than I was for the d3x. I love my large pro d3s body and would rather all of my future cameras be the large pro style, but I hate the
...Show more


+1 Kerry,

As Thom Hogan has pointed out, given the new way they are constructing the sensors and the photo cells, more MP does not mean worst high-ISO performance for a given print size, at least not until you start pushing things into the supper silly range of ISO12800 or higher. A 54MP sensor would squeeze every last bit of resolution out of most current lenses and the only way to get better would be to start building lenses with aspherical elements and mostly ED glass.

Also, at 54MP, you now have enough pixels to effectively do pixel binning to get smaller raw files and more FPS without totally loosing resolution. A 54MP sensors bins out to a 13.5MP sensor if you bin the pixels in both directions ... not too shabby at all. Think of it, a buffer that could do 3 FPS at 54MP could handle 12FPS at 13.5MP ... the D4 buffer handles 10FPS at 16.4MP so this is well within the range of possibility.

A 54MP D4X with pixel binning and the same buffer ad a D4 would be one hell of a camera.



Mar 16, 2013 at 06:23 PM
M Lucca
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


How about providing a better AF system with X-type points spread around the sensor plane instead of center-clustered.
See Canon's 61-point AF system to start with.
Better LV implementation for the lanscapers and macro shooters.

Fix current QC issues. Treat your current loyal nikon customers right.




Mar 16, 2013 at 07:40 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


M Lucca wrote:
How about providing a better AF system with X-type points spread around the sensor plane instead of center-clustered.
See Canon's 61-point AF system to start with.
Better LV implementation for the lanscapers and macro shooters.

Fix current QC issues. Treat your current loyal nikon customers right.



Amen to all points!

Would also like to see AF Fine Tune for zooms, ie 2 or 3 settings per lens based on the FL.

Andre, I'm not familiar with the binning technique you are writing about. I have a vague idea what it does and that's it. Regardless, I'd like to see them continue to up the ante by being able to flush the full MP's at higher FPS rates, then maybe give the option of even higher FPS with binning or sRAW type tricks.

Kerry



Mar 16, 2013 at 09:30 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Andre, I'm not familiar with the binning technique you are writing about. I have a vague idea what it does and that's it. Regardless, I'd like to see them continue to up the ante by being able to flush the full MP's at higher FPS rates, then maybe give the option of even higher FPS with binning or sRAW type tricks.

Kerry


********************

Hi Kerry,

sRAW and Pixel Binning are the same thing!

I hear you on the higher FPS. I was basing my #s on what the D4 can do today. No doubt as the technology improves, the higher FPS bodies will pound out the frames as lower MP bodies.

At some point, mechanical performance and AF aquisition time become the limiting factors. I'm not sure which become the limiting factor first, but I suspect that the AF aquisition time will be the limiter. There are plenty of mechanical devices that run at greater than 10Hz (i.e. 10 FPS) but it will require greater precision & more expensive materials to do that in a fragile camera body with a glass mirror ... all of which drives up cost.

All that aside, I could see Nikon coming out with a D4X that looks like this:

FX RAW @ 54MP, 3 FPS, 2 second buffer
FX sRAW @ 13.5MP, 10 FPS, 4+ second or longer buffer since the smaller files would clear faster

DX RAW crop @ 24MP, 6 FPS, ~3 second buffer
DX sRAW crop @ 6MP, 12 FPS, near continuos shooting till the card fills.

That would be a very versitile camera. No doubt the DX crop will be there... but will the sRAW be there? Nikon will do it eventually, but in a D4X ?

Now some day in the future, you will see that 54MP at 8 FPS and a 5 second buffer ... just not now. ... but for your sake I hope I'm wrong.

Cheers,
Andre



Mar 16, 2013 at 10:00 PM
M635_Guy
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Interesting discussion. Is AF acquisition at high FPS an issue due to the fact that the shutter is "blinding" the sensor?


Mar 16, 2013 at 10:15 PM
sic0048
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


sjms wrote:
do you need a body built like an APC?


There are a lot of pros that do. Of course there are a lot that don't either, but the idea is to give people a choice.



Mar 16, 2013 at 11:04 PM
 

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Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Andre, thanks for the info. Not having ever used a Canon dslr, I wasn't aware that sRAW was the same as binning.

As for the FPS, I've been pretty happy with 8 on the d300 and d700. I have my d3s Ch set to 9, but it doesn't make much difference to me. IIRC, it was set at 9 when I got it and I didn't bother to change it to 8.

M635_Guy, I suspect that the mirror flapping certainly does limit high FPS rates. According to the d3s manual, a great many things affect FPS, including VR. Another interesting thing that I learned when I got my d3s, is that it doesn't AF beyond the first frame, when Ch is set for higher than 9 FPS.

Here's the pertinent quote from the manual;
"Continuous high-speed (note that at 10 and 11 fps, focus will be fixed at the value for the first shot in each burst and that, when the subject is poorly lit, exposure will also be fixed at the value for the first shot)."

It would appear that Nikon can't make the AF work in the short time frame available at 10 FPS or higher.

Kerry



Mar 16, 2013 at 11:17 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


M635_Guy wrote:
Interesting discussion. Is AF acquisition at high FPS an issue due to the fact that the shutter is "blinding" the sensor?




The 1/2 silvered mirror is part of the optical path to the AF system. The camera cannot focus while the mirror is moving and the AF shuts off when the mirror is up. AF must be reaquired between each shutter release.

So while I'm sure Nikon could make a system that flaps the mirror at 20FPS (at some considerable expense if its to be reliable), the lmiting factor is if the AF system aquire focus in the short periods of time that the mirror is down.

But like other electronic systems, this can be improved, but it takes time to process the information and then feed that to the AF motor ... there is a limit to how fast that can be done. It's easier at this point to improve buffer size and speed than it is to make AF systems faster ... but AF systems do keep getting better.



Mar 17, 2013 at 02:23 AM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Kerry Pierce wrote:
Andre, thanks for the info. Not having ever used a Canon dslr, I wasn't aware that sRAW was the same as binning.

As for the FPS, I've been pretty happy with 8 on the d300 and d700. I have my d3s Ch set to 9, but it doesn't make much difference to me. IIRC, it was set at 9 when I got it and I didn't bother to change it to 8.

M635_Guy, I suspect that the mirror flapping certainly does limit high FPS rates. According to the d3s manual, a great many things affect FPS, including VR. Another
...Show more


Hi Kerry,

Honestly I did not know that myself until today ... I saw your remark about sRAW and started searching for how it works ... once I found a reliable sourse on it, it became clear it was the same thing as binning.

Funny, I'm a Nikon DSLR user all the way ... never used a Canon DSLR outside the store and that brief time in the store told me to go Nikon ... but when it comes to P&S, I'm Canon all the way ... never found a Coolpix that works as well as the Canons for the same money.

If I ever go mirroless I'll likely go Olympus or Panasonic ... the m4/3 system seems the sweet spot for mirroless ... I wish Nikon had gone that route.

As you can see, I'm not brand loyal, but due tend to pick a system and stick with it ... thus my desire to see a D400

Getting back to topic, I would say you are correct that right now the AF limit seems to be at 10FPS regardless of MP and buffer. Data transfer to the buffer seems to be around 170 to 200 MP per second.

Cheers,
Andre



Mar 17, 2013 at 02:39 AM
Mark_L
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Andre Labonte wrote:
The 1/2 silvered mirror is part of the optical path to the AF system. The camera cannot focus while the mirror is moving and the AF shuts off when the mirror is up. AF must be reaquired between each shutter release.

So while I'm sure Nikon could make a system that flaps the mirror at 20FPS (at some considerable expense if its to be reliable), the lmiting factor is if the AF system aquire focus in the short periods of time that the mirror is down.

But like other electronic systems, this can be improved, but it takes time to process
...Show more

I think the sony A99 with it's fixed translucent mirror has a crazy fast framerate probably for this reason.



Mar 17, 2013 at 11:42 AM
LD_50
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Andre Labonte wrote:
Hi Kerry,

Honestly I did not know that myself until today ... I saw your remark about sRAW and started searching for how it works ... once I found a reliable sourse on it, it became clear it was the same thing as binning.


I don't think Canon's sRaw is the same as binning. I read an article quite a whole ago explaining that it was really not raw sensor data anymore. I'll post it if I can find it.

Also see Thom Hogan's recent article on a D700 replacement, quote:

"So let me rag on Nikon instead of the wedding photographers for a bit ;~). There's a simple answer that would have stopped the "big file" complaint: sRAW. That's right, create an in-camera NEF file smaller in pixel size than captured, as do many of the Canon cameras. Now technically, Canon's sRAW isn't raw as it contains an interpolation. But you could bin the D800 sensor to create a true raw variation (3680 x 2456)."



Mar 17, 2013 at 03:18 PM
binary visions
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Right... my understanding is that sRAW is essentially a downsizing of the raw file, but leaving the bit depth intact (unlike the dowsized JPGs, obviously). Pixel binning is actually reading the raw data out of multiple photosites to create one raw pixel.


Mar 17, 2013 at 03:24 PM
Jammy Straub
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


As someone that used to shoot weddings, I don't really care if it's true pixel binning or an interpolated and reduced size file As long as I can recover highlight info and change WB that's just dandy. 24mp is waaaaaay overkill for 1000+ photos from a reception or people doing random things.

I just like shooting raw, even if it's just shooting my daughter eating a bowl of cereal. I don't want incredibly high resolution images all the time, I do want raw all the time...

FWIW I don't see Nikon implementing sRAW anytime soon, if they were going to they would have done it on the D800. Though I also don't think we'll see a D400 or a D4x




Mar 17, 2013 at 03:28 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


LD_50 wrote:
I don't think Canon's sRaw is the same as binning. I read an article quite a whole ago explaining that it was really not raw sensor data anymore. I'll post it if I can find it.

Also see Thom Hogan's recent article on a D700 replacement, quote:

"So let me rag on Nikon instead of the wedding photographers for a bit ;~). There's a simple answer that would have stopped the "big file" complaint: sRAW. That's right, create an in-camera NEF file smaller in pixel size than captured, as do many of the Canon cameras. Now technically, Canon's sRAW isn't
...Show more

****************************
sRAW takes the 4 nearest neighbor pixels (2x2) and treats them as one pixel. That is pixel binning.

Weather it is done in the chip or after the fact, the result is identical. In either case, since the binning is going to occur on a Bayer pattern, some interpolation is going to be needed to get the color correct since when you bin, there will be one red, one blue and two green pixels in the bin.

Binning acts like down-ressing a file but in whole # increments. It should also be noted that binning need not be done in a 2x2 pattern to create the large pixels but can be done in other ways but will require different interpolation for the color. The 2x2 binning is the simplest to understand.

Here is a link that I found that explains the way sRAW works

http://www.chrisridley.co.uk/all-posts/sraw-files/

From what people are saying, sRAW is the name Canon gives to the process after the image is taken.

It should be noted that down-ressing an image may or may not behave like binning depending on how it's done.






Mar 17, 2013 at 04:32 PM
Andre Labonte
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Well, this article make the clear distiction that binning is "before" the image is read out but in my mind it should not matter. I would think that doing "before" would be faster than doing "after", but the results should be the same.

http://www.pco.de/fileadmin/user_upload/db/download/pco_cooKe_kb_binning_0502.pdf

This article concurs with the one aobve that it is done "before" readout and that it is indeed faster:

http://www.andor.com/learning-academy/ccd-binning-what-does-binning-mean

So I guess sRAW is the "after" and binning is the "before" version of the same thing. Binning will have the spead advantage but will require different interpolation for color than the unbinned sensor.




Mar 17, 2013 at 04:35 PM
Kerry Pierce
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Nikon D4x soon I hope


Interestingly enough, I just had a back-channel conversation on this topic with Mr. Hogan. He wasn't happy with some comments that I'd made on DPR about one of his articles, where I'd said something similar to what Jammy said about his wedding shoots, but that Hogan was doing the fanboy thing, defending the MP race against those wanting a true d700 replacement.

In one of his articles, he mentions sRAW and I asked him about using Nikon's compression, which is "visually lossless". He said that sRAW is a superior method of reducing file size, if you care about trying to recover highlights and there is software that will do it. My response to that was that given that Nikon doesn't do sRAW and probably isn't likely to do it anytime soon, that it's a moot point. If you really need/want smaller RAW files, then using their compression scheme is the only way to go.

I've played around a little with the compressed RAW option and it does produce some significant file size differences, but I don't think that I'd want to use it at a wedding just yet. I'd have to do a lot more testing to see whether or not it really made a difference in highlight detail retention, before I'd use it for something like that.

Kerry



Mar 17, 2013 at 07:43 PM
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