High dynamic range is not all...

Home · Register · Search · Software · Hosting · Software · Join Upload & Sell

FM Forum Rules
Canon SLRs, primes, and zooms lenses reviews

FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell
1 2 end

WebDog
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #1 · High dynamic range is not all...

Interesting to see that there is almost a firesale of Nikon high end camears here... the D800 prices sees to drop like a stone!

Why?

This is the camera I would have picked if not so invested in Canon... still it seems it have hard time to hold it's price.
The 5D Mk3 is 25% higher in price, and you do get a new IPad mini when you order the D800.
Seems to me for reasons unknown that Nikon having a hard time keep up the prices and sell volumes of their cameras.

Is this the beginning of the end of the DSLR, i.e. most people now prefere using their cameraphones, good enough for facebook and shoot video too? Leaving the market to the pros and die hard hobbyists? What about Canon, pushing out new high end video cams like there is no tomorrow...

Feb 25, 2013 at 09:17 AM

Monito
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #2 · High dynamic range is not all...

Indeed, high dynamic range is not all. But, I do not think it is the beginning of the end of the DSLR. One might as easily say that it is the end of the point&shoot camera because that market wants convenience and seems to say "why carry two cameras: a P&S and a good camera phone?".

In July, after the 5D Mark III was announced and shipped for a little while, there was much hand-wringing and gnashing of teeth and wailing at the price, usually about $3500 at the time. Some people believed that Canon had made a huge mistake and thought the camera was not selling well and believed the Nikon D800 was selling like hotcakes. They predicted that the 5D3 price would be below $2700 by Christmas.

Well, here we are, in the middle of a big sale on the D800 by Nikon, and we can take a reading using B&H as the benchmark. Their price on the D800 is $2800, which includes a $200 instant rebate from Nikon to try to get sales moving and includes a shoulder bag, 32 GB card, and spare battery from B&H to try to get sales moving.

By contrast for Canon, the predicted price for the 5D3 was to be $2700 or lower by now, well south of $3000, but instead it is $3150 at B&H. That is not the nominal price because retailers are restricted from advertising their actual selling price. (Note that the nominal price is $3500 which is what is on Canon's site too.)

In any price thread like this, there will inevitably be posts about various shades of retailers offering lower prices and about kits that people can spend time breaking up and trying to sell lenses separately but, for benchmarking, the B&H camera body price is well established.

As a final observation, it seems that those who were so sure Canon had made a suicidal mistake and that the 5D3 would die in the marketplace, in competition with Nikon D800 and its other offerings, have been proven wrong.

Feb 25, 2013 at 10:11 AM

PhilDrinkwater
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #3 · High dynamic range is not all...

A number of my friends are selling their D800's. They're finding:

* It's too much of a pain in terms of shooting style to use all those 36MP (the old 1/focal length for shutter speed is WAY out and that's forcing them to increase ISO if they want complete sharpness at 100%)
* They don't like how long it takes to process them (it's just slower in LR and PS..)
* They don't like the increase in storage space (it is a pretty significant difference!)

More low ISO DR would be welcomed by everyone I'm sure, whether you need it or not - if you don't you can just ignore it.

I also totally get that for some applications more resolution is just better. Without a doubt landscape photographers must be in this position and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

However, for some it's a clear disadvantage. As a wedding photographer I don't want more MP. As a catalogue fashion shooter I wouldn't want more MP. As a sports photographer I *probably* wouldn't want more MP. As a journalist, I wouldn't want more MP. etc...

I think what I'm trying to say is that, on paper it seems fantastic, but live with it for a while and maybe it's not quite so perfect. More is not always better. (Although I understand that, as a generation, I think we do have "more is better" virtually drip fed to us by marketing companies who can't think of anything better to say, so it's no wonder that people have this view).

I personally would like Canon to keep a low 20's MP camera going for the foreseeable future since I just don't need or want more resolution. Albums aren't going to get bigger since people aren't going to get bigger. In fact, the 18mp of the 1dx is also good, although I don't want a 1 series body due to weight and loud shutter.

Feb 25, 2013 at 10:45 AM

Monito
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #4 · High dynamic range is not all...

As computer speeds and capacities increase, 36 MPx won't seem so much, but it will always be more than 20 MPx and take longer. Even if individual photos don't take too long, the differences in batches will remain noticeable.

However, anyone who has upgraded their computer with mindfulness for disk and CPU performance in the last year, or will be doing so soon, will be ready for high MPx cameras. Probably just in time for Canon to announce one (cue the doomsayers and fear-mongers).

Feb 25, 2013 at 10:58 AM

dhphoto
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #5 · High dynamic range is not all...

PhilDrinkwater wrote:
A number of my friends are selling their D800's. They're finding:

* It's too much of a pain in terms of shooting style to use all those 36MP (the old 1/focal length for shutter speed is WAY out and that's forcing them to increase ISO if they want complete sharpness at 100%)
* They don't like how long it takes to process them (it's just slower in LR and PS..)
* They don't like the increase in storage space (it is a pretty significant difference!)

More low ISO DR would be welcomed by everyone I'm sure, whether you need it or not - if you don't you can just ignore it.

I also totally get that for some applications more resolution is just better. Without a doubt landscape photographers must be in this position and I'm sure they're not the only ones.

However, for some it's a clear disadvantage. As a wedding photographer I don't want more MP. As a catalogue fashion shooter I wouldn't want more MP. As a sports photographer I *probably* wouldn't want more MP. As a journalist, I wouldn't want more MP. etc...

I think what I'm trying to say is that, on paper it seems fantastic, but live with it for a while and maybe it's not quite so perfect. More is not always better. (Although I understand that, as a generation, I think we do have "more is better" virtually drip fed to us by marketing companies who can't think of anything better to say, so it's no wonder that people have this view).

I personally would like Canon to keep a low 20's MP camera going for the foreseeable future since I just don't need or want more resolution. Albums aren't going to get bigger since people aren't going to get bigger. In fact, the 18mp of the 1dx is also good, although I don't want a 1 series body due to weight and loud shutter.

The very first thing that sprang into my mind as I read the D800 specs was where is the MRAW?

Almost no-one is going to want vast images ALL the time, except some landscapers perhaps, to have a smaller but still good RAW file in the same camera would have changed it's appeal hugely I would have thought especially with wedding guys who could have big files for groups and smaller files for the candids without needing to swap lenses or body. Nikon would say just go buy a D600, but clearly that has it's problems too.

Feb 25, 2013 at 11:02 AM

Ian.Dobinson
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #6 · High dynamic range is not all...

I think the file size would hit me quite hard.
I built a machine (on a tight budget) last year . It's pretty fast with my 18mp files and would handle the 5D3 raw files pretty easily. But I think the 36mp files would start to test things .

And while hard drives are cheap they still have a cost to them , and when you factor in backup its going to be double. I'd rather not have to invest in more drive space unless I really need it .

Also as David mentions Mraw on the D800 is a real oversight . The D800 could do with Mraw more than any other body .

Now I wonder if all the D800's up for sale are comming from either of the following camps
1: canon swappers who realised that all thos extra pixels in a cheaper costing body was not the green grass in the other field they thought it was.
2: buyers of the D800 who then thought the D800E was the better option

Just a thought

Feb 25, 2013 at 11:21 AM

dhphoto
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #7 · High dynamic range is not all...

Ian.Dobinson wrote:
I think the file size would hit me quite hard.
I built a machine (on a tight budget) last year . It's pretty fast with my 18mp files and would handle the 5D3 raw files pretty easily. But I think the 36mp files would start to test things .

And while hard drives are cheap they still have a cost to them , and when you factor in backup its going to be double. I'd rather not have to invest in more drive space unless I really need it .

Also as David mentions Mraw on the D800 is a real oversight . The D800 could do with Mraw more than any other body .

Now I wonder if all the D800's up for sale are comming from either of the following camps
1: canon swappers who realised that all thos extra pixels in a cheaper costing body was not the green grass in the other field they thought it was.
2: buyers of the D800 who then thought the D800E was the better option

Just a thought

I notice that in the UK the D800E is quite a bit more expensive than the D800. As I recall the IQ tests didn't show a massive difference (I may be wrong I'm no expert on Nikon)

I do think MRAW would have made the D800 a world-beater though, especially if it had a higher FPS at the lower res setting

Feb 25, 2013 at 11:25 AM

alexdi
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #8 · High dynamic range is not all...

Nikon's pricing isn't indicative of their sales. They're trying to supplant Canon in DSLR marketshare. The D800 could be selling like hotcakes, but if the two companies aren't at parity, Nikon may well discount it even more.

As far as 1/focal goes, the original 5D was probably close to satisfying it. That was at 4368x2912. The D800 is 7360x4912 for about 70% more linear resolution. The shutter would therefore have to be 70% faster to limit motion blur to the same number of pixels. Given that the rule was always just a probability function, they might as well just round up to two.

Edited on Feb 25, 2013 at 11:51 AM · View previous versions

Feb 25, 2013 at 11:31 AM

Ian.Dobinson
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #9 · High dynamic range is not all...

I think Mraw would have made it a much more everyday option.

Yeah if mraw gave you a jolt in the FPS (to 6 fps or better) then I think I becomes a much better seeming option.

But I will say that the Dx mode (gives an extra fps boost) probably is a bonus in the D800's favour .
Although does it allow you to shoot raw (I don't know)
Shooting crop still gives you about 15mp . But I know in lots of situations shooting crop is not ideal

Feb 25, 2013 at 11:37 AM

Ralph Conway
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #10 · High dynamic range is not all...

Like I mentioned in an different thread: If I would base my purchase habits on my DR needs, I still would use my 30D/40D. I needed higher resolution, better high ISO performance and wished FF DOF.
I am not doing landscape nor super large prints. So the 18-22 MP resolution is working excellent for me. The only thing I still need now is higher and better (high) ISO performance and excellent JPEG output. Both is given (technically and concerning my personal taste) with 5D III/6D. Not with D600/D800.

Next to this in my opinion both latter cameras feel horrible in my hands, one uncomfortable, the other one cheap and toylike. If I would look for DR I would have to get along with this. Because I do not I can decide what works AND feels better in my hands.

Ralph

Feb 25, 2013 at 11:38 AM

EB-1
Offline
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #11 · High dynamic range is not all...

D800 is a very popular camera, so it is natural that there will be many used ones for sale.

EBH

Feb 25, 2013 at 12:00 PM

PhilDrinkwater
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #12 · High dynamic range is not all...

dhphoto wrote:
The very first thing that sprang into my mind as I read the D800 specs was where is the MRAW?

Almost no-one is going to want vast images ALL the time, except some landscapers perhaps, to have a smaller but still good RAW file in the same camera would have changed it's appeal hugely I would have thought especially with wedding guys who could have big files for groups and smaller files for the candids without needing to swap lenses or body. Nikon would say just go buy a D600, but clearly that has it's problems too.

Indeed. I believe they use some crop mode which reduces the res, but that changes your lens from a 50mm to a 65 or 80 or whatever at the same time.

To be honest I don't want to use mraw though. I want the actual pixels. Surely to produce an mraw the pixels have to be "interpreted" somehow? That means I'm going to end up with something different to what I really want.

But yes a number of people have said they use the d800 for the groups and couple shots and then switch to a d700 or d3s for the candids.

But that's two cameras then.

Feb 25, 2013 at 12:17 PM

dhphoto
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #13 · High dynamic range is not all...

I've tried mRAW on the 5D3 and the IQ is extremely good. It's about 10.5 meg which would be very useful for certain things I think - an almost 5D sized file with modern RAW processing

Feb 25, 2013 at 12:20 PM

PhilDrinkwater
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #14 · High dynamic range is not all...

If high MP sensors become the norm, I might have to go mraw. I'm not dealing with 36+mp files that's for sure...

I actually think 18 is probably the sweet spot for me, but I'd probably be happy enough up to about 24. Past that my cards aren't quite enough and that's a pain (and an expense).

Feb 25, 2013 at 12:30 PM

Access
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off

p.1 #15 · High dynamic range is not all...

I don't talk cameras much with my friends, but this is simple, it just comes down to feature set and demand (for the feature set).

Nikon has had good AF in the line for some time. Canon, on the other hand, had the 5D2 -- full frame sensor, but poor AF. They also had the 7D -- good AF, but crop sensor. If you wanted both, you had to pay a whole lot of money.

So when the 5D3 came along, the general sentiments were "it's expensive", and "it has the feature set that the 5D2 should have had". A significant amount of the 5D2 users desired the upgrade.

Ironically Nikon tends to get their feature sets 'right' the first time. I know a few people who use a D700 and don't feel any urge to upgrade to a D600 or D800.

Feb 25, 2013 at 04:24 PM

Ben Horne
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #16 · High dynamic range is not all...

There are a lot of people out there who believe equipment will make them a better photographer. Lots of people jumped on the D800 for this reason, then realized that there's more to image quality than just equipment. That's one of the reasons why you'll certainly see them on the used market.

Feb 25, 2013 at 04:34 PM

molson
Online
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #17 · High dynamic range is not all...

It seems more likely that since Nikon eliminated Quality Control in their manufacturing (presumably as a way to cut expenses to compete on price), customers just aren't happy with their shoddy quality and would rather have something that works properly.

Feb 25, 2013 at 05:22 PM

StillFingerz
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #18 · High dynamic range is not all...

Customer support, problem acknowledgement and fix...Canon is just bigger and thus can/does provide better service, including, CPS, the CLP and the CLC all great advantages.

Feb 25, 2013 at 05:47 PM

Ben Horne
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #19 · High dynamic range is not all...

molson wrote:
It seems more likely that since Nikon eliminated Quality Control in their manufacturing (presumably as a way to cut expenses to compete on price), customers just aren't happy with their shoddy quality and would rather have something that works properly.

They eliminated Quality Control?

Feb 26, 2013 at 12:35 AM

dswiger
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On

p.1 #20 · High dynamic range is not all...

Blah, blah, blah.
The internet provides the background noise.
I doubt that the quality of Nikon is measurably different than Canon.
I wouldn't use the "tweeting" that goes on in the forums as a legit stats basis for anything.
If you look in a Nikon forum, you hear complaints about Nikon.
If you look in a Canon forum..... You get the idea.

What a problem to have, too many mega pixels & too much dynamic range

.
If I could afford a D800, I would get one just for the experience.
But my images aren't hurting for mega-pixels so its just as well.

Some of this sounds like.... jealousy repackaged.

Dan

Feb 26, 2013 at 01:00 AM

1 2 end
FM Forums \| Canon-mount SLRs \| Join Upload & Sell 1 2 end