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Archive 2013 · Birders vs Photographers
  
 
Imagemaster
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Birders vs Photographers


Steve Shinn wrote:
Too many people are making too many people. As long as that continues we are doomed to further damage indigenous wildlife.


Hey Steve, are you trying to say that we are multiplying and spreading like vermin. Blasphemy.

Tony



Feb 03, 2013 at 09:02 PM
Ted ellis
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Birders vs Photographers


I'll be back.


Feb 03, 2013 at 09:15 PM
gregfountain
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Birders vs Photographers


Unless you are feeding the birds from your hand, I doubt they will become immune to their natural fears of humans. Just like here, everyone has a prejudiced opinion of what you should and shouldn't do. So I'm not surprised to see others (outside of FM) take a pre-determined argument about the subject. Some people just like to argue, and some, sadly and most probably, are just jealous of your skill. Always keep that in mind Mr Gimp!

Greg



Feb 03, 2013 at 09:20 PM
Cincy Bruce
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Birders vs Photographers


!!! Really? I have yet to see any proof that any bird will purposely starve itself because you stopped feeding them. Raptors take full advantage of "opportunity" whether we provide it, or not.

Bruce



Feb 03, 2013 at 09:34 PM
marcy45
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Birders vs Photographers


what is the difference between baiting for a raptor shot and setting up bird feeders for shots of other birds - I have been at a birding festival with well known photographers setting up feeding stations for birds to come in so that the class could shoot - at the Desert Museum in Tucson they put on a "free" fly with their captive birds that have radio beacons on them and set up feeding stations too - I would love to get some shots like I see here - I remember a couple years back on Vancouver island that people were bringing buckets of fish during the winter for the eagles and everybody was shooting - when the feeders go away and the baiters go away the birds go back to hunting for themselves - they are opportunist and will take hand outs where they find them - somewhere there should be a mid position for both groups


Feb 03, 2013 at 11:01 PM
Chubri
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Birders vs Photographers


I don't bait for photos but I don't see where it is any different than putting up bird feeders in one's backyard. The part that always gets me in this ongoing debate is how one side seems to know what the bird/animal is thinking. Can't remember much from biology classes anymore but I do know they didn't teach us to read the minds of Great Gray Owls.


Feb 03, 2013 at 11:18 PM
Chubri
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Birders vs Photographers


marcy45 wrote:
what is the difference between baiting for a raptor shot and setting up bird feeders for shots of other birds - I have been at a birding festival with well known photographers setting up feeding stations for birds to come in so that the class could shoot - at the Desert Museum in Tucson they put on a "free" fly with their captive birds that have radio beacons on them and set up feeding stations too - I would love to get some shots like I see here - I remember a couple years back on Vancouver island that people
...Show more

Exactly, Marcy. Check out Alan Murphy's videos. I see this as a win/win. The birds get food and water and the photographers get their shots. Should be no different for boreal raptors. Disclosure is still the key IMO. I wouldn't want to share a baited or captive shot and try and slip it by as anything different. You guys and gals are too sharp.



Feb 03, 2013 at 11:24 PM
mogul
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Birders vs Photographers


To the starving bird advocates, I say feed them, but don't take their picture, then you know if their well being is at the heart of your largess.


Feb 03, 2013 at 11:52 PM
hawky
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Birders vs Photographers


Lots of good fodder here-keeps a person thinking about both sides of the issue. Guess I do take issue though with those that want to judge whether or not someone has baited something and then conclude that photographer does not have good ethics---not good to judge just by looking at a photo-you could be very wrong.


Feb 04, 2013 at 12:22 AM
AndrewKandel
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Birders vs Photographers


These conversations always focus on whether the owl is harmed or not and never is mentioned that the mouse is certainly not better off from the practice. Yeah, it's a mouse and was destined for a snake's stomach anyway, but is it really that different than shooting an old horse, that was destined for a Frenchman's plate, to bring in say wolves to photograph? I'd imagine a lot more people would have a problem with the latter.

Likewise, presumably, I've never live baited nor witnessed it so I can only assume, that some mice escape death. Is there any thought of their impact on the local rodent population? Interbreeding could affect genes. Diseases could be carried that the local rodents have no immunity to. Seems like all sorts of peril could be unwittingly released in the name of a shot that is really not worth all that much in the grand scheme of things considering how often it has been shot.



Feb 04, 2013 at 12:42 AM
 

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Cincy Bruce
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Birders vs Photographers


AndrewKandel wrote:
These conversations always focus on whether the owl is harmed or not and never is mentioned that the mouse is certainly not better off from the practice. Yeah, it's a mouse and was destined for a snake's stomach anyway, but is it really that different than shooting an old horse, that was destined for a Frenchman's plate, to bring in say wolves to photograph? I'd imagine a lot more people would have a problem with the latter.

Likewise, presumably, I've never live baited nor witnessed it so I can only assume, that some mice escape death. Is there any thought of
...Show more

Ever think about entering this into the Canon/Ron Howard photo contest? Lots of imagination.

Bruce



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:11 AM
Ted ellis
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Birders vs Photographers


uz2work wrote:
Since I know that there are a good number of people who post here and who do bait and since I also know that many others have never personally witnessed what often happens in situations where baiting is done, I don't expect that this is going to be a popular opinion, but I also think that it needs to be said.

If it was ever possible to make a case for why baiting is okay, I think that the internet has changed that. While it might seem reasonable to think that a single photographer using a couple of pet store
...Show more

Les:

1. So many topics of debate (all in a single thread) you and the other respondents have posted in this thread. I will do my best to reply in a civil, succinct and intelligent manner to give my point of view. The topics of wildlife photography as I see them include but not limited to the use of baiting, blinds, the internet (to spread the good/bad news) and the ethics of it all.

2. I can only elaborate on what I know. To do so, I go no further than discussing bald eagles. A topic I am very knowledgeable about. I have been photographing bald eagles at my pond since 2007. In 2009 (November) the eagle population at my pond was estimated at 500. On any given weekend day maybe 20+ photographers. Parking spots were plentiful. Eagles were everywhere especially on the near side of my pond where I was.

3. November 2012, the bald eagle population was estimated at 170+. On the weekends 100+- photographers, other onlookers, kids, dogs and birders were at my pond. A parking spot was hard to find unless you got to my pond before 8am. Most eagles were on the far side of the pond. I wonder why

Blinds:

I see no problem with using a blind. I do so at my house (from an open window) to photograph my back yard birds BUT not my hummingbirds. I am up close and personal with my hummers. Do I have feeders and plants which attract them, yes I do. Have I used a blind other than my back yard birds? Nope! I have never shot exotic wildlife from a blind. I will have to if I am to photograph Puffins in July.

Baiting:

Feeders certainly fall in to the category of baiting. My backyard birds love it. With the seclusion my dinning room window offers, I get great shots. I have never baited a raptor nor will I in the future. Baiting a raptor would take all the hard work and gratification I get from photographing raptors in the wild. Baiting a raptor would be much to easy. It would be like cheating on a test in school.

The Internet:

Nothing wrong with posting on the internet I got this shot at Bain de Soleil NWR, Blackwater NWR, John Heinz NWR, Yosemite, Yellowstone, Ted Machias Island or the Falkland Islands. What I have a problem with is I got this shot at Bagnell Dam, LD55 or Herb's Lock and Key. I cringe every time I see it. This kind of post, about a specific confined space draws too much attention to the wildlife and brings on the the hordes of onlookers. In my past experience, wildlife activity suffered.

This is not the first time I have participated in this debate nor will it be the last.

Good wishes to you all and plentiful wildlife for all of you to photograph.

Ted



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:23 AM
hawky
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Birders vs Photographers


Ted ellis wrote:
Les:

1. So many topics of debate (all in a single thread) you and the other respondents have posted in this thread. I will do my best to reply in a civil, succinct and intelligent manner to give my point of view. The topics of wildlife photography as I see them include but not limited to the use of baiting, blinds, the internet (to spread the good/bad news) and the ethics of it all.

2. I can only elaborate on what I know. To do so, I go no further than discussing bald eagles. A topic I am very knowledgeable about.
...Show more

well stated Ted



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:36 AM
Imagemaster
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Birders vs Photographers


AndrewKandel wrote:
These conversations always focus on whether the owl is harmed or not and never is mentioned that the mouse is certainly not better off from the practice.


That is because we practise species discrimination. Mice and fish have no rights. You can do whatever you want to them. The species that are most unlikely to become extinct are those that we domesticate for food or pets.



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:37 AM
AndrewKandel
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Birders vs Photographers




Ever think about entering this into the Canon/Ron Howard photo contest? Lots of imagination.

Bruce

Maybe. I honestly do not know what impact it would have, if any. I'd bet those who bait I don't know either. I do know that introducing non-native species into an ecosystem is usually a very bad idea. See Burmese Pythons in the Everglades.



Feb 04, 2013 at 02:48 AM
marklankton
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Birders vs Photographers


The best thing about this thread is that it encourages people to Think About What You Are Doing. Congratulations to all of you who are doing that. Keep it up.
Mark



Feb 04, 2013 at 03:02 AM
Steve Shinn
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Birders vs Photographers


Imagemaster wrote:
Hey Steve, are you trying to say that we are multiplying and spreading like vermin. Blasphemy.

Tony



Hi Tony, Well I don't see the vermin population expanding nearly as fast as the humans who have learned how to control just about every other organism on the planet but our own...
Paraphrasing Pogo; "we have met the enemy and the enemy is us".

Love your work.



Feb 04, 2013 at 04:30 AM
tinyfishy
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Birders vs Photographers


This is an argument that sprung up every owl season since the digital SLR cameras become popular....a disagreement among bird lovers where there's no right or wrong...similar to arguments on
religions and politics.

Live and let live, enjoy yourself while you let others enjoys too, understanding and tolerances is the answer. Seasoned birders and bird photographers understands much better than new comers.

My 2 cents.



Feb 04, 2013 at 04:59 AM
JTMeuret
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Birders vs Photographers


acjd wrote:
See Bald Eagle Management Guide p.15, item #7. "Do not intentionally feed bald eagles. Artificially feeding bald eagles can disrupt their essential behavioral patterns and put them at increased risk from ... other mortality factors."



Yeah, I might agree with that guide, but I've personally never baited animals, so it doesn't apply to me. I guess someone might want to tell a few down at L&D 14. I'm not going to though, because in THAT case, I don't see anything wrong with it. Plus, it's not my job to tell them.

J.T.



Feb 04, 2013 at 05:20 AM
JTMeuret
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Birders vs Photographers


jstephens62 wrote:
Thanks to Conrad for opening this up to discussion. I also would like to congratulate Conrad and Carlene for showing us how to have respectful discussion where the two parties may disagree.

Some activities we can all agree are wrong (trespassing, feeding the bird something you know to be harmful). Some activities we all agree are fine (photographing or birding from a blind with the bird unaware of your presence). In between these extremes, there are a range of behaviors where reasonable people could disagree. For me, baiting falls into that category. I could argue both sides of the issue.
...Show more

Wow. With all due respect, how do you call Charlene's part of the discussion "respectful" ? She wasn't respectful at all and publicly attacked Conrad from the get-go! Read her first entry!

J.T.



Feb 04, 2013 at 05:43 AM
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