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p.3 #1 · Birders vs Photographers


Steve Shinn wrote:
Too many people are making too many people. As long as that continues we are doomed to further damage indigenous wildlife.


Hey Steve, are you trying to say that we are multiplying and spreading like vermin. Blasphemy.

Tony



Feb 03, 2013 at 09:02 PM
Ted ellis
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p.3 #2 · Birders vs Photographers


I'll be back.


Feb 03, 2013 at 09:15 PM
gregfountain
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p.3 #3 · Birders vs Photographers


Unless you are feeding the birds from your hand, I doubt they will become immune to their natural fears of humans. Just like here, everyone has a prejudiced opinion of what you should and shouldn't do. So I'm not surprised to see others (outside of FM) take a pre-determined argument about the subject. Some people just like to argue, and some, sadly and most probably, are just jealous of your skill. Always keep that in mind Mr Gimp!

Greg



Feb 03, 2013 at 09:20 PM
Cincy Bruce
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p.3 #4 · Birders vs Photographers


!!! Really? I have yet to see any proof that any bird will purposely starve itself because you stopped feeding them. Raptors take full advantage of "opportunity" whether we provide it, or not.

Bruce



Feb 03, 2013 at 09:34 PM
marcy45
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p.3 #5 · Birders vs Photographers


what is the difference between baiting for a raptor shot and setting up bird feeders for shots of other birds - I have been at a birding festival with well known photographers setting up feeding stations for birds to come in so that the class could shoot - at the Desert Museum in Tucson they put on a "free" fly with their captive birds that have radio beacons on them and set up feeding stations too - I would love to get some shots like I see here - I remember a couple years back on Vancouver island that people were bringing buckets of fish during the winter for the eagles and everybody was shooting - when the feeders go away and the baiters go away the birds go back to hunting for themselves - they are opportunist and will take hand outs where they find them - somewhere there should be a mid position for both groups


Feb 03, 2013 at 11:01 PM
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p.3 #6 · Birders vs Photographers


I don't bait for photos but I don't see where it is any different than putting up bird feeders in one's backyard. The part that always gets me in this ongoing debate is how one side seems to know what the bird/animal is thinking. Can't remember much from biology classes anymore but I do know they didn't teach us to read the minds of Great Gray Owls.


Feb 03, 2013 at 11:18 PM
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p.3 #7 · Birders vs Photographers


marcy45 wrote:
what is the difference between baiting for a raptor shot and setting up bird feeders for shots of other birds - I have been at a birding festival with well known photographers setting up feeding stations for birds to come in so that the class could shoot - at the Desert Museum in Tucson they put on a "free" fly with their captive birds that have radio beacons on them and set up feeding stations too - I would love to get some shots like I see here - I remember a couple years back on Vancouver island that people were bringing buckets of fish during the winter for the eagles and everybody was shooting - when the feeders go away and the baiters go away the birds go back to hunting for themselves - they are opportunist and will take hand outs where they find them - somewhere there should be a mid position for both groups


Exactly, Marcy. Check out Alan Murphy's videos. I see this as a win/win. The birds get food and water and the photographers get their shots. Should be no different for boreal raptors. Disclosure is still the key IMO. I wouldn't want to share a baited or captive shot and try and slip it by as anything different. You guys and gals are too sharp.



Feb 03, 2013 at 11:24 PM
mogul
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p.3 #8 · Birders vs Photographers


To the starving bird advocates, I say feed them, but don't take their picture, then you know if their well being is at the heart of your largess.


Feb 03, 2013 at 11:52 PM
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p.3 #9 · Birders vs Photographers


Lots of good fodder here-keeps a person thinking about both sides of the issue. Guess I do take issue though with those that want to judge whether or not someone has baited something and then conclude that photographer does not have good ethics---not good to judge just by looking at a photo-you could be very wrong.


Feb 04, 2013 at 12:22 AM
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p.3 #10 · Birders vs Photographers


These conversations always focus on whether the owl is harmed or not and never is mentioned that the mouse is certainly not better off from the practice. Yeah, it's a mouse and was destined for a snake's stomach anyway, but is it really that different than shooting an old horse, that was destined for a Frenchman's plate, to bring in say wolves to photograph? I'd imagine a lot more people would have a problem with the latter.

Likewise, presumably, I've never live baited nor witnessed it so I can only assume, that some mice escape death. Is there any thought of their impact on the local rodent population? Interbreeding could affect genes. Diseases could be carried that the local rodents have no immunity to. Seems like all sorts of peril could be unwittingly released in the name of a shot that is really not worth all that much in the grand scheme of things considering how often it has been shot.



Feb 04, 2013 at 12:42 AM
 



Cincy Bruce
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p.3 #11 · Birders vs Photographers


AndrewKandel wrote:
These conversations always focus on whether the owl is harmed or not and never is mentioned that the mouse is certainly not better off from the practice. Yeah, it's a mouse and was destined for a snake's stomach anyway, but is it really that different than shooting an old horse, that was destined for a Frenchman's plate, to bring in say wolves to photograph? I'd imagine a lot more people would have a problem with the latter.

Likewise, presumably, I've never live baited nor witnessed it so I can only assume, that some mice escape death. Is there any thought of their impact on the local rodent population? Interbreeding could affect genes. Diseases could be carried that the local rodents have no immunity to. Seems like all sorts of peril could be unwittingly released in the name of a shot that is really not worth all that much in the grand scheme of things considering how often it has been shot.


Ever think about entering this into the Canon/Ron Howard photo contest? Lots of imagination.

Bruce



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:11 AM
Ted ellis
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p.3 #12 · Birders vs Photographers


uz2work wrote:
Since I know that there are a good number of people who post here and who do bait and since I also know that many others have never personally witnessed what often happens in situations where baiting is done, I don't expect that this is going to be a popular opinion, but I also think that it needs to be said.

If it was ever possible to make a case for why baiting is okay, I think that the internet has changed that. While it might seem reasonable to think that a single photographer using a couple of pet store mice to bait an owl isn't likely to do harm to the bird, that is not the situation that is often happening in today's post-internet world. As soon as a species, such as various varieties of owls, shows up in an area where it is not often seen, that information gets posted on the internet, and it is likely that dozens (or more) of photographers are going to be showing up at the location on a daily basis, and a good number of them are going to be coming prepared to bait the bird. When this happens, it is likely that a number of other things are also going to happen.

I have witnessed situations where an owl became so used to having people provide it with those pet store mice multiple times a day and day after day for weeks that it would sit on the same fence post or utility pole every day and just wait for the cars to arrive. Then, as one mouse after another was released, it would behave like a trained circus seal and repeat the cycle of catching the mouse, eating it, returning to the fence post, and waiting for the next release.

The results of this repeated and constant baiting were many. First, there is no question that the bird had become much too trusting of humans. I've seen such baited owls allow people to walk virtually right up to them without being scared into flight. And, yes, often this type of baiting does occur in close proximity to roads. Those from raptor rehab centers will likely tell you that the number one cause of permanent disability (or worse) for raptors is being struck by vehicles after they have gone after prey that is eating scraps of food that have been littered in the roadway. Anything that makes a raptor feel more comfortable near roads is not doing it a favor.

Additionally, when a bird is baited every day, it is likely to stay in an area where the natural food supply is not sufficient, and it is likely to stay in that area for a longer period of time than what nature would dictate, none of which helps its survival chances. Further, I've read reports from the experts at raptor rehab facilities saying that bait, such as pet store mice, can have a higher likelihood of being toxic to a raptor than the natural prey that it is would otherwise be eating.

Even though it is not, to me, the worst consequence of baiting, photographers who do bait also often give photographers a bad name by trespassing onto private property.

While I don't expect that my thoughts are likely to have the least bit of influence on those who believe that they have a right to get their photos regardless of the means that they have to use to get them and regardless of the possible consequences of using those means, I would like to hope that some of these thoughts might have an effect on the thinking of a few others who may not have seen baiting for themselves. After personally witnessing the kind of baiting situations that I described above, I decided, a few years ago, that, whether it is an owl, a deer, an eagle, or any other bird/animal, if I have to resort to baiting to get certain types of pictures, I will be happy never to get them, and I also decided to avoid even going to locations where I know that baiting is likely to occur.

When I look at pictures, it isn't hard to guess with a high level of accuracy which pictures were taken as a result of baiting. While I have no ability to stop people from doing things that are not against the law, I do have the right to make judgments about the ethics of those who feel that they have the right to do whatever they need to do get their photographs, and those judgments are, to me, a lot more important than any judgments I might make about the quality of their photographs.

Les


Les:

1. So many topics of debate (all in a single thread) you and the other respondents have posted in this thread. I will do my best to reply in a civil, succinct and intelligent manner to give my point of view. The topics of wildlife photography as I see them include but not limited to the use of baiting, blinds, the internet (to spread the good/bad news) and the ethics of it all.

2. I can only elaborate on what I know. To do so, I go no further than discussing bald eagles. A topic I am very knowledgeable about. I have been photographing bald eagles at my pond since 2007. In 2009 (November) the eagle population at my pond was estimated at 500. On any given weekend day maybe 20+ photographers. Parking spots were plentiful. Eagles were everywhere especially on the near side of my pond where I was.

3. November 2012, the bald eagle population was estimated at 170+. On the weekends 100+- photographers, other onlookers, kids, dogs and birders were at my pond. A parking spot was hard to find unless you got to my pond before 8am. Most eagles were on the far side of the pond. I wonder why

Blinds:

I see no problem with using a blind. I do so at my house (from an open window) to photograph my back yard birds BUT not my hummingbirds. I am up close and personal with my hummers. Do I have feeders and plants which attract them, yes I do. Have I used a blind other than my back yard birds? Nope! I have never shot exotic wildlife from a blind. I will have to if I am to photograph Puffins in July.

Baiting:

Feeders certainly fall in to the category of baiting. My backyard birds love it. With the seclusion my dinning room window offers, I get great shots. I have never baited a raptor nor will I in the future. Baiting a raptor would take all the hard work and gratification I get from photographing raptors in the wild. Baiting a raptor would be much to easy. It would be like cheating on a test in school.

The Internet:

Nothing wrong with posting on the internet I got this shot at Bain de Soleil NWR, Blackwater NWR, John Heinz NWR, Yosemite, Yellowstone, Ted Machias Island or the Falkland Islands. What I have a problem with is I got this shot at Bagnell Dam, LD55 or Herb's Lock and Key. I cringe every time I see it. This kind of post, about a specific confined space draws too much attention to the wildlife and brings on the the hordes of onlookers. In my past experience, wildlife activity suffered.

This is not the first time I have participated in this debate nor will it be the last.

Good wishes to you all and plentiful wildlife for all of you to photograph.

Ted



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:23 AM
hawky
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p.3 #13 · Birders vs Photographers


Ted ellis wrote:
uz2work wrote:
Since I know that there are a good number of people who post here and who do bait and since I also know that many others have never personally witnessed what often happens in situations where baiting is done, I don't expect that this is going to be a popular opinion, but I also think that it needs to be said.

If it was ever possible to make a case for why baiting is okay, I think that the internet has changed that. While it might seem reasonable to think that a single photographer using a couple of pet store mice to bait an owl isn't likely to do harm to the bird, that is not the situation that is often happening in today's post-internet world. As soon as a species, such as various varieties of owls, shows up in an area where it is not often seen, that information gets posted on the internet, and it is likely that dozens (or more) of photographers are going to be showing up at the location on a daily basis, and a good number of them are going to be coming prepared to bait the bird. When this happens, it is likely that a number of other things are also going to happen.

I have witnessed situations where an owl became so used to having people provide it with those pet store mice multiple times a day and day after day for weeks that it would sit on the same fence post or utility pole every day and just wait for the cars to arrive. Then, as one mouse after another was released, it would behave like a trained circus seal and repeat the cycle of catching the mouse, eating it, returning to the fence post, and waiting for the next release.

The results of this repeated and constant baiting were many. First, there is no question that the bird had become much too trusting of humans. I've seen such baited owls allow people to walk virtually right up to them without being scared into flight. And, yes, often this type of baiting does occur in close proximity to roads. Those from raptor rehab centers will likely tell you that the number one cause of permanent disability (or worse) for raptors is being struck by vehicles after they have gone after prey that is eating scraps of food that have been littered in the roadway. Anything that makes a raptor feel more comfortable near roads is not doing it a favor.

Additionally, when a bird is baited every day, it is likely to stay in an area where the natural food supply is not sufficient, and it is likely to stay in that area for a longer period of time than what nature would dictate, none of which helps its survival chances. Further, I've read reports from the experts at raptor rehab facilities saying that bait, such as pet store mice, can have a higher likelihood of being toxic to a raptor than the natural prey that it is would otherwise be eating.

Even though it is not, to me, the worst consequence of baiting, photographers who do bait also often give photographers a bad name by trespassing onto private property.

While I don't expect that my thoughts are likely to have the least bit of influence on those who believe that they have a right to get their photos regardless of the means that they have to use to get them and regardless of the possible consequences of using those means, I would like to hope that some of these thoughts might have an effect on the thinking of a few others who may not have seen baiting for themselves. After personally witnessing the kind of baiting situations that I described above, I decided, a few years ago, that, whether it is an owl, a deer, an eagle, or any other bird/animal, if I have to resort to baiting to get certain types of pictures, I will be happy never to get them, and I also decided to avoid even going to locations where I know that baiting is likely to occur.

When I look at pictures, it isn't hard to guess with a high level of accuracy which pictures were taken as a result of baiting. While I have no ability to stop people from doing things that are not against the law, I do have the right to make judgments about the ethics of those who feel that they have the right to do whatever they need to do get their photographs, and those judgments are, to me, a lot more important than any judgments I might make about the quality of their photographs.

Les


Les:

1. So many topics of debate (all in a single thread) you and the other respondents have posted in this thread. I will do my best to reply in a civil, succinct and intelligent manner to give my point of view. The topics of wildlife photography as I see them include but not limited to the use of baiting, blinds, the internet (to spread the good/bad news) and the ethics of it all.

2. I can only elaborate on what I know. To do so, I go no further than discussing bald eagles. A topic I am very knowledgeable about. I have been photographing bald eagles at my pond since 2007. In 2009 (November) the eagle population at my pond was estimated at 500. On any given weekend day maybe 20+ photographers. Parking spots were plentiful. Eagles were everywhere especially on the near side of my pond where I was.

3. November 2012, the bald eagle population was estimated at 170+. On the weekends 100+- photographers, other onlookers, kids, dogs and birders were at my pond. A parking spot was hard to find unless you got to my pond before 8am. Most eagles were on the far side of the pond. I wonder why

Blinds:

I see no problem with using a blind. I do so at my house (from an open window) to photograph my back yard birds BUT not my hummingbirds. I am up close and personal with my hummers. Do I have feeders and plants which attract them, yes I do. Have I used a blind other than my back yard birds? Nope! I have never shot exotic wildlife from a blind. I will have to if I am to photograph Puffins in July.

Baiting:

Feeders certainly fall in to the category of baiting. My backyard birds love it. With the seclusion my dinning room window offers, I get great shots. I have never baited a raptor nor will I in the future. Baiting a raptor would take all the hard work and gratification I get from photographing raptors in the wild. Baiting a raptor would be much to easy. It would be like cheating on a test in school.

The Internet:

Nothing wrong with posting on the internet I got this shot at Bain de Soleil NWR, Blackwater NWR, John Heinz NWR, Yosemite, Yellowstone, Ted Machias Island or the Falkland Islands. What I have a problem with is I got this shot at Bagnell Dam, LD55 or Herb's Lock and Key. I cringe every time I see it. This kind of post, about a specific confined space draws too much attention to the wildlife and brings on the the hordes of onlookers. In my past experience, wildlife activity suffered.

This is not the first time I have participated in this debate nor will it be the last.

Good wishes to you all and plentiful wildlife for all of you to photograph.

Ted


well stated Ted



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:36 AM
Imagemaster
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p.3 #14 · Birders vs Photographers


AndrewKandel wrote:
These conversations always focus on whether the owl is harmed or not and never is mentioned that the mouse is certainly not better off from the practice.


That is because we practise species discrimination. Mice and fish have no rights. You can do whatever you want to them. The species that are most unlikely to become extinct are those that we domesticate for food or pets.



Feb 04, 2013 at 01:37 AM
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p.3 #15 · Birders vs Photographers


Cincy Bruce wrote:
.


Ever think about entering this into the Canon/Ron Howard photo contest? Lots of imagination.

Bruce

Maybe. I honestly do not know what impact it would have, if any. I'd bet those who bait I don't know either. I do know that introducing non-native species into an ecosystem is usually a very bad idea. See Burmese Pythons in the Everglades.



Feb 04, 2013 at 02:48 AM
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p.3 #16 · Birders vs Photographers


The best thing about this thread is that it encourages people to Think About What You Are Doing. Congratulations to all of you who are doing that. Keep it up.
Mark



Feb 04, 2013 at 03:02 AM
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p.3 #17 · Birders vs Photographers


Imagemaster wrote:
Steve Shinn wrote:
Too many people are making too many people. As long as that continues we are doomed to further damage indigenous wildlife.


Hey Steve, are you trying to say that we are multiplying and spreading like vermin. Blasphemy.

Tony



Hi Tony, Well I don't see the vermin population expanding nearly as fast as the humans who have learned how to control just about every other organism on the planet but our own...
Paraphrasing Pogo; "we have met the enemy and the enemy is us".

Love your work.



Feb 04, 2013 at 04:30 AM
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p.3 #18 · Birders vs Photographers


This is an argument that sprung up every owl season since the digital SLR cameras become popular....a disagreement among bird lovers where there's no right or wrong...similar to arguments on
religions and politics.

Live and let live, enjoy yourself while you let others enjoys too, understanding and tolerances is the answer. Seasoned birders and bird photographers understands much better than new comers.

My 2 cents.



Feb 04, 2013 at 04:59 AM
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p.3 #19 · Birders vs Photographers


acjd wrote:
JTMeuret wrote:
... But, I know some out there are feeding eagles fish lately to get photos. Is that bad? I don't know. ... Neither the human or animal are hurting each other. ... Hey, an eagle is our national emblem. Feed them!


See Bald Eagle Management Guide p.15, item #7. "Do not intentionally feed bald eagles. Artificially feeding bald eagles can disrupt their essential behavioral patterns and put them at increased risk from ... other mortality factors."



Yeah, I might agree with that guide, but I've personally never baited animals, so it doesn't apply to me. I guess someone might want to tell a few down at L&D 14. I'm not going to though, because in THAT case, I don't see anything wrong with it. Plus, it's not my job to tell them.

J.T.



Feb 04, 2013 at 05:20 AM
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p.3 #20 · Birders vs Photographers


jstephens62 wrote:
Thanks to Conrad for opening this up to discussion. I also would like to congratulate Conrad and Carlene for showing us how to have respectful discussion where the two parties may disagree.

Some activities we can all agree are wrong (trespassing, feeding the bird something you know to be harmful). Some activities we all agree are fine (photographing or birding from a blind with the bird unaware of your presence). In between these extremes, there are a range of behaviors where reasonable people could disagree. For me, baiting falls into that category. I could argue both sides of the issue.

I am both a birder and a photographer, I have a degree in Biology, and I have also have a keen interested in human behavior and how we make decisions. I think there is no doubt that if you derive pleasure and reward from an activity, it will color your judgement about its being "right". Conversely, if you have negative emotional reaction to an activity, it becomes much easier to see it as being "wrong". I offer up the current discussion regarding gun legislation in the US as an example.

What would really help is some objective data to help guide us, which in this case might be very hard to obtain. I suppose survival data for owls in remote locations with little or no human contact vs. those near people who have been feed would be possible, but I doubt it has been done. I do know that there is data for other bird species that feeders do allow for increased population and range expansion, despite their downsides (increased transmission of infectious diseases, etc).

Absent objective data, we can still discuss the issue, but all parties should be aware of their own biases, be honest about them, and be respectful of the opinions of others. I think Conrad and Charlene did very well in that regard.

My apologies for the long-winded post, and thanks for the opportunity to express opinions near and dear to my heart.


Wow. With all due respect, how do you call Charlene's part of the discussion "respectful" ? She wasn't respectful at all and publicly attacked Conrad from the get-go! Read her first entry!

J.T.



Feb 04, 2013 at 05:43 AM
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