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Archive 2013 · Birders vs Photographers
  
 
JeffAUSTIN
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p.11 #1 · Birders vs Photographers


Tlazer wrote:
Wow, I can't believe this response. You have got to be kidding me - what does this have to do with the discussion at hand. You don't agree with me so now lets fight


this quote in its entire context not shown was to say that no bird is in trouble from baiting for their survival, it us humans who make it an issue based on our values/norms etc...

the man vs man who has a bigger voice wins type argument. the above quote out of context is not towards any individual.



Feb 10, 2013 at 07:29 PM
lukeb
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p.11 #2 · Birders vs Photographers


sdgnh wrote:
I disagree. As long as you are not drawing the wildlife out of its territory and putting that animal in danger, offering appropriate food should not cause a problem. I agree with Conrad, that it may offer help during the winter.

In my opinion, offering food on a one time basis, doesn't lure the bird away from its territory, or make it dependent on humans for survival. It merely offers an easy meal that day.

Look at that face - it looks pretty content if you ask me.

Nancy



+1



Feb 10, 2013 at 07:33 PM
Tlazer
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p.11 #3 · Birders vs Photographers


lukeb wrote:
+1



I would just ask one question to the above quote. If you are so worried about the wildlife and helping it to survive the long winter that you are offering it food, why must you do it with a camera in hand? Would you not still get the same satisfaction just to offer the food and watch the owl take the mouse all the while just watching with no camera knowing you helped it find a meal? If one has a camera in hand and must take a photo then I would disagree to the motive of why you were offering food in the first place. Once again it would seem we are only worried ourselves and getting the shot we so think we deserve.



Feb 10, 2013 at 08:03 PM
acjd
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p.11 #4 · Birders vs Photographers


Before this thread appeared, I never heard of the concept of using a mouse to get an owl to pose for a shot. It never occurred to me anyone would do such a thing. I must be so naive.

Everyone here has some interest in photography, otherwise they wouldn't be here. Many do so as a hobby and its easy to quickly see how much money is dumped into this hobby. It's not just the camera equipment but the hardware and software. Want to print your own shots large? Then you really need a wide-gamut monitor and expensive printer. Photoshop isn't exactly cheap either. Up at Ted's Pond, Sundays around Thanksgiving are known as Million Dollar Sunday since its wall to wall supertelephotos. So who wouldn't want to get that shot of a lifetime? We are all human. Everyone wants the money shot.

Granted, photography isn't as expensive as say collecting Ferraris or Porsches but it isn't cheap either. So, I can see someone wanting to get a bird on their bucket list and have no issue with that. Good for them to have a goal. It's something to achieve. Without having a goal, life would be pretty dismal. It's good people like Herb have these kinds of goals.

Although I have no horse in this race, since I'm never going to see an Owl hunting, I wanted to learn what is going on. So, to educate myself, I googled around. Still photos don't truly convey what is going on. So, I found this, albeit not in North America and clearly a tour advertisement. It's also simple to google around and even find where to park to see these owls in question. Yes, a couple of mouse clicks (no pun intended) and you can find the actual parking lot (at least that is what I think). Amazing what you can find on the internet. We live in a world of instant communications and you can't put the genie back in the bottle. You can't hide locations and you can't stop the internet from spreading information. How soon will it be that all DSLRs have GPS built in and displayed in the EXIF or transmitted by wifi directly to the web? Even new smart phones do that.

But, when I watched that video, if the concept is the same as what is being discussed here, the first thing that popped in my head was the old saying Things easily attained have no value. There are many fantastic photographers here. I think about any one of you could get fantastic shots using this technique. Do any one you not think you couldn't get a great OIF (that's a new word I just invented - Owl In Flight) shot?

So my conclusion is this. Some people do say when they were taking pictures at a workshop. I remember, for example, Conrad specifically mentioning that in one of his fantastic series. So, since I've seen this video, I think everyone who takes such pictures should say so in their thread. Otherwise, its really deceptive not to. Naive people like me would literally think the photographer did some great photography feat that I know I would never be able to recreate. Uhmm. No. You didn't.

Just my opinion. If you used some live animal to get the money shot, then say so. Don't let us think otherwise.

Thank you for that consideration.



Feb 10, 2013 at 09:32 PM
uz2work
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p.11 #5 · Birders vs Photographers


acjd wrote:
Although I have no horse in this race, since I'm never going to see an Owl hunting, I wanted to learn what is going on. So, to educate myself, I googled around. Still photos don't truly convey what is going on. So, I found this, albeit not in North America and clearly a tour advertisement.


Yep, the video to which you linked is pretty much the idea of what is going on in many places with a few variations. Now, once the word gets out, instead of having one photographer ready to take the picture of the bird that has been baited with the mouse, you are likely to have dozens, and they will feed the bird one mouse after another until it is so full that it loses interest. An hour or two later, they will start the process over again.

I've also seen slightly more sophisticated "baiting hardware" where the mouse is in some sort of container and the container is placed in a location out in the open with the most picturesque background in the area. That container has a release door that can be controlled remotely, usually by a long string that can be tugged on to open the door. That gives the baiter time to go back to his/her camera and to be ready to photograph the human-induced action that is about to take place. And it is not even a challenge for the owl to catch the mouse because, when the mouse is released, it generally is inclined to spend a bit of time just looking around and trying to get its bearings. Thus, the sitting mouse becomes, in effect, a sitting duck with no chance whatever to avoid the capture by the owl.

I also know that there are people on this board who actually pay people to take them to the birds and who pay them to do the baiting for them. A couple of years ago, a friend of mine was offered a good sum of money by 2 FM regulars to accompany them to an area several hundred miles away where owls were known to be, to find the owls for them, and to bait the owls for them. And the pictures that those people take end up with the masses of "great shot" comments even though they took less skill to take than those taken by many others even if those other pictures may have a lower level of visual appeal.

In an earlier post, I said that I had once, several years ago, unknowingly gone to a location where baiting was taking place, and I admitted that I exercised poor judgment and took pictures of the bird that others were baiting. While I was doing so, I immediately sensed that I was doing something wrong, and, after a bit of thought to process what I was feeling, a few hours later, I vowed to myself that I would never again take part, even in a secondary way, in taking pictures of a baited bird. But one of things that I realized was that this was, in fact, some of the easiest wildlife photography that I have ever done. You know where the bird is to start with. You know when it is going to fly, where it is going to fly to, and what it is going to do. The only skill required is to set up in the right location relative to the light and to the subject. Beyond that, all you have to do is lock in focus and, then, lean on the shutter. Even if your tracking skill isn't the best, at 8 or 10 or 12 frames per second, you are virtually guaranteed to get some of those spectacular shots that make you look like you are a much more skilled photographer than you really are. The pictures that I took during this experience are among the ones that I value the least, and they are the ones of which I am the least proud. My only use for them today is to use them when I speak to youth groups, groups of photographers, etc., and I use them as examples of what we should not be doing. When I describe to those groups the circumstances under which they were taken, I typically see an audience filled with people shaking there heads.

Les



Feb 10, 2013 at 10:02 PM
kbarrera
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p.11 #6 · Birders vs Photographers


Ok! This thread has gone beyond stupid, Herons using bait, bird feeders, green lawns to attract geese? All examples of baiting? Give me a break. Baiting is baiting. For the record, I don't do it and probably never will. Does that make me more ethical or righteous than someone who does it or takes advantage of someone else doing it? Hell no. It's not illegal nor does it violate any regulations. That makes it a matter of choice. Again, I'm against the practice, but I will not bore you as to why. And there will be no stupid analogies. If you choose to use bating to help you get your photos then so be it. It's your choice. That's the problem with these forums. There are a lot of people who just can't stand the fact that some members just don't agree with them. If you do disagree, you will most likely be attacked or ridiculed publicly. I think the word is judgemental
Too much of that on this forum. Personally I think a lot of people avoid FM because of that. I'm not going to give you any of that Rodney King " Why can't we just get along" crap. There's nothing wrong with a good healthy debate. Too often things get ugly too quickly here.
I'm trying to avoid my opinion in this post. The fact is: As it pertains to wild life photography the definition of baiting is clear. Fact: It's not illegal. Fact: it's a personal choice. Fact: Not all people that do it are unethical.
Fact: I don't do it. Which makes this post even more relevant.

I'm Out!

Al



Feb 10, 2013 at 10:23 PM
gkor
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p.11 #7 · Birders vs Photographers



I would just ask one question to the above quote. If you are so worried about the wildlife and helping it to survive the long winter that you are offering it food, why must you do it with a camera in hand? Would you not still get the same satisfaction just to offer the food and watch the owl take the mouse all the while just watching with no camera knowing you helped it find a meal? If one has a camera in hand and must take a photo then I would disagree to the motive of why you were offering
...Show more

This is exactly the point that people against baiting practice's are making.
Baiting to just get that "once in a life time shot" is wrong and furthermore it is done only for the satisfaction and enjoyment of the photogrpaher. No consideration is given to the Owl.
The "funny" thing is that people using bait sometimes begin presenting their "exploit" saying that the Owl was actively feeding which to the non-initiate means hunting. In these cases, the reader of such post can very well assume that it is natural behavior.
The "problem" is that Owl hunt for their food and these people have a difficult time understanding it. The Owl occupy a large territory and may just be perched in a area to rest, Of course, where ever the Owl happens to be perched, it may be seen hunting: that is instinctive. The real problem is that in a "circus athmosphere viewing" as soon as people find an Owl in one spot bait is thrown in to keep the owl there. Owl will concentrate on a food source location for extended periods of time while hunting, BUT ARE NOT LIMITED TO JUST ONE FIELD.. In normal circumstance, once satisfied, that bird will move elsewhere to perch and rest. They may well be back the next day and hunt the same field, but they will not jeapardize their food source by deplitting it in one long seating for weeks on end. Having an owl attracted to the very same field for weeks is un-natural. Having an Owl present in the exact same spot is obviously due to baiting and is deemed to be harmful. In those circumstances, we are not talking about feeding the Owl for its well being. We are talking about feedeing the Owl for the pleasure of having a subject to photograph and observe day in, day out. The obvious reason that the behavior of the photographer is an obstruction in the life of that Owl is that at one point, when people will have had their fill of photos, baiting will stop and the Owl will move on and resume normal hunting behavior. That is assuming that the Owl will not get stressed to the point of no return: So accustomed to people, attracted by vehicule activity, (the list goes on) that eventually the Owl will get harmed. I am not a biologist but, when I hear people justify baiting because the snow is too hard or too deep, I laugh. Most of my Owl photography is done in the worst conditions. Often the temperature is in the -20 to -30 degrees celcius with snow falling or on the ground. The Owls usually do find food naturally as long as the food is there to be hunted. If not, again they will move on.
This is the way it is for GGOs, NHOs where I am located. These birds do not have set migration paterns, meaning that they will not travel great seasonal distances. Their movement is mostly dictated by food supply.
Snowy Owls are seasonal migrants, but there again, their migration patern is highly dependant on food availability/supply: natural supply, that is. When northern areas lack food they will move into more southern regions.
Other factors may enter into Snowy Owl movement. Factors such successful reproduction / nesting in Artic regions. The bigger the Owls population moving south in the winter, the more food is needed to sustain the populations. When food supply runs out, their survival instinct will drive them south again. Life has cycles, for birds of preys as well as their prey. Often, the cycles do not match and the predator will just not perch somewhere waiting to die. They will do what ever it takes to survive.
Again, I am not a biologist but what I encourage anyone to do is "study" your subject as much as possible in order to have respect for said subject. Education is key to respect for your subject and the environment they live in.

I do not understand people and larger outfits who give workshops on Owl photography using bait to get once in life time shots to their clients. Making a profit is all that counts. I see nothing educating in the practice. Education for the technical aspect of photography, yes, maybe. Ethical education, no. The only lesson to be learn is that it is ok to bait for fast results. It is like getting a quicky. The problem is that their clients get quickies time and time again. It is adictive and really, who needs to work hard for satifaction when it can be had repeatidely using a lab mouse. Again, anyone sensible to the issue will find it deemed to be unethical. Whether through, the internet, worshops, people meeting in the field, at events, etc, there is always something to learn, something to discuss, a way for oneself to get educated and a way for oneself to educate. All is based on respect. What we like is nature so respect it.
Most of the well know and honest photographers will have enough "balls" to practice their craft ethically. Their silence in the matter is not an approval of the practice. The weekend warrior who is looking for that once in a life time shot.should learn from honest sources. Anyone practicing un-ethically should be challenged, whether he/she is a friend, a celebrity or what ever,
I do realize that the decision is not black or white. Bait if you think that getting the shot is going to save your live, not your reputation or ego, But next time you have the opportunity, think twice and weigh the concequences, Educate yourself, be aware, and use respect.



Feb 10, 2013 at 10:30 PM
uz2work
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p.11 #8 · Birders vs Photographers


For those who are truly interested in basing their opinions on this topic via education and not in just being dismissive of information as a means of rationalizing their behavior, I'd suggest paying a visit to the Naturescapes Conservation and Ethics forum.

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=37

Not only will you find several threads there that deal with baiting, but, within those threads, you will find a number of links to articles, discussions, and videos that deal with the issue. While you will find a range of views expressed, I think that you will also find a general consensus that is much less based on self interest than what we are seeing on this board.

Among the information and points that I found to be of particular interest were the following.

Evidently, in Quebec, there has been a vast increase in the baiting of snowy owls in the last 3 to 4 years. Veterinarians there are reporting significant increases in the numbers of snowy owls that have been killed or disabled by vehicle collisions, and they attribute this increase to the owls identifying people and vehicles as a source of food, having little or no fear of either, and flying toward them, instead of flying away from them. The permanently disabling injuries include eye injuries and injuries requiring amputation of wings.

An especially high level of concern is expressed for the baiting activity in locations where there are groups of photographers baiting the owls over extended periods of time, and those with more expertise than most of us contend that groups of photographers are much more likely to cause the birds to habituate to people and to alter their behavior in ways that are harmful than a single photographer whose presence interrupts the bird's normal behavior in a shorter and much less intrusive manner.

Concern was also expressed about situations in which the owls are baited over an extended period of time and what happens when the baiting is discontinued. During the winter when the energy reserves of the birds is low, if the natural food supply is not sufficient, when the baiting is discontinued, even if the owl has to take a short period of time to find another source of food, that short period of time can be fatal to the bird. (I know that this idea has been expressed by several in this thread, but, in some of the links, you will find that those with more knowledge/expertise than most here are saying the same thing.)

In a survey taken at a NAPA symposium on ethics, only 20% of the photographers present indicated that they felt that there was nothing unethical about baiting raptors (which I found encouraging).

Because of these concerns, at least one community in Quebec has passed legislation prohibiting baiting of owls. Other communities are considering similar legislation. With regard to the feeling of some that, "if it isn't illegal, it must be okay", when there are changes in our world, it often takes time for laws to catch up with those changes. Just like it has taken time for laws to catch up with the changes in the world caused by the development of the internet, the same thing is likely to happen eventually as a result of the growth of the practice of baiting, and it is likely that, 10 years from law, laws prohibiting baiting will be much more common than they are now.

There is lots more in those threads and the links within them. Some continue to ask for actual information. Much good information can be found there and in the links in those threads.

Les




Feb 11, 2013 at 04:59 PM
harrygilbert
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p.11 #9 · Birders vs Photographers


I suppose that those adamantly opposed to any form of baiting are also against giving candy to an unruly child, or a treat to a dog to foster obedience (or flowers to a wife to make up for a spat).

This is not a black-or-white issue; while excessive baiting could be deleterious to animals' food-gathering and survival instincts, judicious use of attractant (food or aroma) in order to get a photograph which may well convince other humans of the value of wildlife is, IMHO, not harmful.



Feb 11, 2013 at 05:13 PM
Jim McCann
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p.11 #10 · Birders vs Photographers


Feeding wildlife is illegal in Alaska.


Feb 11, 2013 at 05:14 PM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



gkor
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p.11 #11 · Birders vs Photographers


harrygilbert wrote:
I suppose that those adamantly opposed to any form of baiting are also against giving candy to an unruly child, or a treat to a dog to foster obedience (or flowers to a wife to make up for a spat).

This is not a black-or-white issue; while excessive baiting could be deleterious to animals' food-gathering and survival instincts, judicious use of attractant (food or aroma) in order to get a photograph which may well convince other humans of the value of wildlife is, IMHO, not harmful.



Again, the first part of your mesasage is irrelevant.
As for the second part please take the time to read all the posts here and you may be able to understand the points being made by opposition to baiting in "mob style" situations as well as why the Owls are being baited in the first place. You do not have to agree but it is your duty to get imformed in order to make a decision. Thank you.



Feb 11, 2013 at 05:54 PM
harrygilbert
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p.11 #12 · Birders vs Photographers


gkor wrote:
Again, the first part of your mesasage is irrelevant.
As for the second part please take the time to read all the posts here and you may be able to understand the points being made by opposition to baiting in "mob style" situations as well as why the Owls are being baited in the first place. You do not have to agree but it is your duty to get imformed in order to make a decision. Thank you.


Again?

This was a discussion - not directed by you, and my input is as relevant as any other.



Feb 11, 2013 at 09:25 PM
harrygilbert
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p.11 #13 · Birders vs Photographers


gkor wrote:
Anyone looking for standards / ethics in their wildlife photography: do your research and use that to make a decision. The most important is to realize that an activity that is not deemed illegal is not necessarily appropriate


Not appropriate by whose standards?.

First and foremost, as photographers we are considered wildlife watchers. If you take photos of birds, you are some sort of birder. As a result, if you really need to find a set of standards to apply to your photography, there is nothing wrong in beginning with what a birder would follow. Furthermore, just “google” wildlife photography ethics and I can assure you that you will find what you need. From there you can work out what is appropriate and what is not. Any wildlife photographer (either professional, hobbyist or beginner) should think about ethics before even going out with a...Show more

"If you take photos of birds, you are some sort of birder". Nonsense. If one takes wedding pictures, are you a bride, a groom, or a guest? If an industrial photographer, are you an engineer?

Ethics are not "common sense", and vary considerably based on culture and setting.

As far as being a free for all attitude for a growing number of photographers because it is not illegal, the idea is totally inappropriate.

Laws are dictated by community standards.

Masturbating is not illegal, but doing in public or posting images on line in the public arena (in this forum for example) will only get one in trouble: if not by the law at least from the people seeing it.

Beg to differ... public masturbation is illegal in most countries.

... I am sorry to say that for some (maybe the “silent majority”) ethics are at least equally important as technical skills. The more skill one possess the more thought is given to the activity of photography.

And where did you get the studies to support this assertion?

At least that should be the natural evolution to make any photographer a more mature photographer. The post count is irrelevant as most of those posts can be summed up to posts such as “great shot/s” whether such comment is warranted or not. There is very little education happening. Egos are developed here (among many other forums) from friendships and “high school” type reasons. The post count does not make one a better photographer. It does not improve one’s skills. It may in certain circumstances elevate one’s ego and popularity among certain sub-support groups of “friends”. Human behavior? Yes. Immature behavior?...Show more

Except when you disagree with someone's contribution the debate?....



Feb 11, 2013 at 09:37 PM
MMauro72
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p.11 #14 · Birders vs Photographers


As much habitat as we have destroyed... The least we could do is off up some sustenance. Not that it could even the scales but it can't be worse then birds who feed on Carrion.
Bald eagles will likely be spotted feeding on, Many times on the side of the road.., where many animals meet their demise.
This birder should worry less about photographers and more on the real dangers to wildlife. I can think of a dozen right off hand from Windmills built on Golden Eagle migration routes, airports, highways etc.
Birders need to give it a break. Photographers aren't the boogie man.



Feb 11, 2013 at 10:01 PM
acjd
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p.11 #15 · Birders vs Photographers


uz2work wrote:
For those who are truly interested in basing their opinions on this topic via education and not in just being dismissive of information as a means of rationalizing their behavior, I'd suggest paying a visit to the Naturescapes Conservation and Ethics forum. ...

http://www.naturescapes.net/forums/viewforum.php?f=37

Les


Les, thank you for this link. Education is always important. Although not specific to tossing mice at owls,
this was an indirect link to a photographic ethics incident where the photographer felt remorse for his actions. I think the first guideline in that article from the Royal Photographic Society Guidelines on the Ethics in Photography is relevant to the discussion on tossing mice.

Thank you



Feb 11, 2013 at 11:07 PM
gkor
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p.11 #16 · Birders vs Photographers


Mr Gilbert,
I am a little hesitant to reply but will make it short by concentrating on just three points.

First
You wrote: “I suppose that those adamantly opposed to any form of baiting are also against giving candy to an unruly child, or a treat to a dog to foster obedience (or flowers to a wife to make up for a spat).”

I replied: “Again, the first part of your mesasage is irrelevant.”

Here is the explanation / clarification:
Comparing giving candy to an unruly child is totally different from baiting an Owl, That Owl is just there living the life an Owl: nothing unruly about that.

To give a treat to a dog to foster obedience is fine. Comparing that to baiting an Owl is at best ridiculous: being polite. This comment (which I must admit I had not thought or heard of before) goes to show that the baiter with such a state of mind is looking for a “wild” subject to perform for the camera. This confirms what some (including myself) think about such practice: “circus style atmosphere” on two fronts. 1) The baiter is baiting to drive the Owl to perform, whether the baiter baits on his own or in the company of others. 2) One baiter baits while all others present are in awe with the performance of the Owl (group photography session) just like a bunch of people going to be entertained at the Circus. One question comes to my mind: who is/are the clowns? Owl or baiter/s?
In any case, because I think that the analogy is misplaced, I politely called it irrelevant. If you, Mr Gilbert, think that getting a performance and being entertained this way by your subject through baiting in the wild is appropriate, may I suggest that you take a second look at your belief. Is a circus performance right for a wild creature.

Second
I wrote: “First and foremost, as photographers we are considered wildlife watchers. If you take photos of birds, you are some sort of birder.”
You wrote: “"If you take photos of birds, you are some sort of birder". Nonsense. If one takes wedding pictures, are you a bride, a groom, or a guest? If an industrial photographer, are you an engineer?

Ethics are not "common sense", and vary considerably based on culture and setting.”

Here is my clarification and view as too what I wrote:
Part of bird photography is watching birds. Birding is watching birds. Only the equipment is vastly different. Some photographers use compact cameras or more sophisticated bodies with short to medium size lenses: some birders used binoculars. Some photographers use sophisticated equipment including very long lenses: some birders use spotting scopes. Both groups look for birds. Both group watch birds through their equipment. The only difference is that the photographer captures an image of said bird as opposed to the birder who is getting a mental image of said bird. Both do whatever they do to keep a record of their findings. Furthermore, some birders may also take a photograph of birds observed. No matter what you Mr Gilbert may say, both have an interest for the birds.
This said, again I find the analogy with a wedding or industrial photographer strange.

As far as ethics being subject to culture and setting? You seem to be absolutely right on this one but I like to think that most cultures operate on the basis of some sort of respect. If not I am sad to say that we may be doomed as a society.

Now let’s go for the third item on the list.
I wrote: “Masturbating is not illegal, but doing in public or posting images on line in the public arena (in this forum for example) will only get one in trouble: if not by the law at least from the people seeing it.”
You replied: “Beg to differ... public masturbation is illegal in most countries.”

I guess we are in agreement: masturbating in public is illegal: or as long as you do not get caught by the law it is not appropriate behavior in a public arena. As a result, doing it in the privacy of your home is not illegal.

As for the rest of what I and everyone else wrote, Mr Gilbert, I would suggest that you take more time to re-read.

Signing off…..
Gilles



Feb 12, 2013 at 01:48 AM
harrygilbert
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p.11 #17 · Birders vs Photographers


Gilles:

Not worth getting into a spat. After reading all the previous posts, I gave my input to the discussion, which you deemed irrelevant. Just because I do not agree with you in several areas (and gave my reasons) is no reason to disparage my input as "irrelevant".

This issue is reminiscent of the debate about the effect of legal hunting on animal populations. Hunting opponents seem to overlook the fact that hunting license fees are the primary ways that animal conservation is supported, by providing finances for conservation officers and the natural resources commissions that set hunting seasons and bag limits, thus helping to maintain a natural balance.

In the same way, bird (and animal) photography can stimulate an appreciation for wildlife in the public at large. It is still my contention that judicious and limited baiting to attract wildlife for the purpose of obtaining outstanding images does little to change the instincts and habits of wildlife to any significant degree. Now, re-read my statement before taking umbrage: "judicious and limited baiting".

Really great photographs (of the high quality produced by Conrad Tan and other posters here) are viewed and appreciated by far more people than just photographers. And I'll bet that more than a few have been spurred to support wildlife conservation efforts.



Feb 12, 2013 at 02:47 AM
Jim McCann
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p.11 #18 · Birders vs Photographers


Nature is dynamic, a huge balancing act. We must be careful when entering into, and abruptly out of, the equation.

Photographer feeds mice to the owl to get the shot desired to make money and fame.
Feed mice to the owl to better sustain it during inclement weather and now the owl prospers from eating those mice. The owl prospers enough to kill more grouse and songbirds and rabbits and miniature poodles and such and maybe create more baby owls in the spring.

Folks, we need to talk sensibly about this stuff and then maybe sit quietly in wilderness for a while and think about our own behavior and what sort of impact it might be making on wild critters. Then we can make good decisions, maybe look at things in a different light.

Thanks for all of the valuable input from everyone. I think I'll go up into the mountains today and photograph ptarmigan and caribou and think more about all of this. Things become so very clear up there; more than just the 100 mile visibility.



Feb 12, 2013 at 05:43 PM
mikedec
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p.11 #19 · Birders vs Photographers


Apparently this can happen. Great Horned Owl gets stuck in SUV grill.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_embedded&v=1JUejwxn5UA




Feb 13, 2013 at 08:57 PM
cohenfive
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p.11 #20 · Birders vs Photographers


I am no expert, and naively had never heard of the practice of baiting before this thread. I am in some sense a 'purist' in thinking that the wildlife shots we see should ideally be just that..pure wildlife. That being said, I am a fan of bird feeders and hummingbird feeders and in some sense this is the same as baiting out in the wild...as long as the birds stay in their natural habitat and are not put in any danger because of the practice.

So will I participate in baiting...I doubt it. Does it bother me that others do, if in a safe and controlled way..not really. Good debate, I learned some things.



Feb 17, 2013 at 03:12 AM
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