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Archive 2013 · M240 Full Res Samples
  
 
rscheffler
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p.6 #1 · p.6 #1 · M240 Full Res Samples


Julian, on the Leica user forum the indication is it's a hardware issue and not fixable with firmware. This post offers some background.

Sorry, what is 'COT' technology? Did you mean to type hot instead?



Feb 15, 2013 at 06:04 AM
_julian_
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p.6 #2 · p.6 #2 · M240 Full Res Samples


Hi Ron,

I could easily overlook the EVF issues if the camera was half the price at $3k. But it's frustrating seeing what Japanese makers can do so easily. NEX peaking works with magnification and panning and costs $300 and it's mostly targeted at AF users. Fuji have phase-based detect peaking with their X100s.

COTS meaning, commercial off the shelf - which is not actually right in the context. What I meant was that inside SONY most of the components for a fullframe NEX would appear to have already been developed within the RX, NEX and Alpha products. Sensor, EVF, processor, software stacks etc. I suspect what's happening now is that it's a marketing problem rather than an engineering challenge.



Feb 15, 2013 at 06:22 AM
snowboarder
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p.6 #3 · p.6 #3 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
imagine, people took perfectly well focused landscape images with the M9!? Must've been luck.


People have been doing all kinds of stuff and then they moved on and never came back.
There is no excuse for Leica half a$$ job with their new "state of the art" camera.
I'm seriously not sure how they can explain it when a $300 camera can do it all easily and well.
If they were releasing 5 new cameras a year and one would have been a f@#$ up, it would
be a different thing. But if this a "result of 20 years of research" and we can't expect anything
newer and better before 2020, they will be having a harder time to maintain their position.
Which is showing already, today you can buy any M lens anywhere without any trouble...
Your inside about the FF NEX is quite disappointing too unfortunately.
Seems like time passes and the solution all of us are waiting for doesn't come...
Maybe at least the new NEX-7 will work well with Leica glass?





Feb 15, 2013 at 09:49 AM
joakim
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p.6 #4 · p.6 #4 · M240 Full Res Samples


Even if it is not possible to scroll around while zoom in shouldn't it be possible to have a cursor on the lcd and have the camera zoom centered around where the cursor is currently placed? Then if you wanted see another area zoomed in you would first have to zoom out and move your cursor there first, not a perfect solution but much better.

I hope they could implement something like this and I also doesn't see that it would be restricted by the hardware in the same way as scrolling around when zoomed in, I mean if the processor can zoom in in the middle then why not at an arbitrary point?



Feb 15, 2013 at 06:59 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.6 #5 · p.6 #5 · M240 Full Res Samples


To be honest, I would prefer to have a Leica M10 with a typ 240 CMOS sensor, but without all this LV, video, focus peaking and magnified view gimmicks. I mean I hardly miss a shot with my M9 and it has no stinking magnified view. If the rangefinder is out of calibration, you got to fix it anyway, LV is no substitute. And if the rangefinder is well calibrated, you will get sharp photos anyway.


Feb 15, 2013 at 07:11 PM
rscheffler
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p.6 #6 · p.6 #6 · M240 Full Res Samples


That's an interesting point joakim. It would be nice for some additional clarification from Leica.

Edward, I understand where you're coming from. That is probably the ME upgrade in 2 years. Or one of the M240 product line expansion options. But too much to hope for right now as it would seriously undermine interest in the M240.

Thanks Julian for the explanation. Unfortunately this is Leica and it appears there will always be a 'gotcha' in body design/capability. And that they operate somewhat in their own dimension and price point. It's ultimately up to each of us to decide if the benefits (FF and ability to use virtually any current and past FF and larger format lenses) outweigh the cut corners (and steep cost of entry). My impression is this is a lot more difficult to accept for non-rangefinder users.

In some respects this shouldn't be a surprise if we take the M8 to M9 transition as an example. The 9's one big feature - FF - was hindered by the use of the M8's outdated components. There is also a hint of this with the M240. A new and apparently very capable sensor, but possibly (to be clarified by Leica) with the 2008 era S2 processor instead of one from 2012. I'm sure there are cost considerations at play, but checking the Fujitsu site, it appears the current version of that processor line sells in the $30/unit range. Naturally there are costs involved with software development to integrate the various components, but one would expect this was already a considerable factor for Leica with a new sensor and the addition of live view and video capability.

Edited on Feb 15, 2013 at 07:41 PM · View previous versions



Feb 15, 2013 at 07:39 PM
philber
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p.6 #7 · p.6 #7 · M240 Full Res Samples


What you say definitely holds true for handheld street photography, Edward. But some of us wanted to use a 240 for tripod shooting, or macro, or with R lenses. All applications where good LiveView is a major step forward. Doesn't mean it can't be done without, of course. But why should photography be any harder than it needs to be?


Feb 15, 2013 at 07:39 PM
Bijltje
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p.6 #8 · p.6 #8 · M240 Full Res Samples


philber wrote:
What you say definitely holds true for handheld street photography, Edward. But some of us wanted to use a 240 for tripod shooting, or macro, or with R lenses. All applications where good LiveView is a major step forward. Doesn't mean it can't be done without, of course. But why should photography be any harder than it needs to be?


Don't want to sound really old, but I have always used focus/ recompose. With my old SLR's, with my DSLR's and with my rangefinders.
It always worked just fine, even with really fast lenses like the 50/0,95 or teleprimes like the canon 200/2.8.

Why can't this be used with the M on a tripod? Just focus the lens and set your composition and take the shot.

I also have a NEX 5N and I notice I keep zooming in and move around on the screen to set the focus. But really I have just as many "sharp" shots as with the focus/ recompose method with my other camera's and at the end it just costs me more time.

Is zooming in on liveview and setting the exact focus really something U will notice in the photo or print itself? Or is it more about the good feeling to be able to set the exact focus?



Feb 15, 2013 at 09:44 PM
redisburning
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p.6 #9 · p.6 #9 · M240 Full Res Samples


well, were this not the ALT forum I would chalk it up to laziness or inability to adapt proper technique HOWEVER since I know how technically skilled a lot of guys are I think it's more than it's better to know for certain than to guess.

personally I use the corners for framing purposes rather than for subject placement so to me it would be a non-issue. but then again, I do shoot a Leica and I do think it's the best camera ever made so clearly it works for what I like.



Feb 15, 2013 at 10:11 PM
naturephoto1
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p.6 #10 · p.6 #10 · M240 Full Res Samples


Bijltje wrote:
Don't want to sound really old, but I have always used focus/ recompose. With my old SLR's, with my DSLR's and with my rangefinders.
It always worked just fine, even with really fast lenses like the 50/0,95 or teleprimes like the canon 200/2.8.

Why can't this be used with the M on a tripod? Just focus the lens and set your composition and take the shot.

I also have a NEX 5N and I notice I keep zooming in and move around on the screen to set the focus. But really I have just as many "sharp" shots as with the
...Show more

This will not work well for precise framing of many images, particularly when you are doing macro or close-up work. When you move the camera, you may not be able to re-position it to the originally intended composition. And working with T/S if that is your desire, this is a major headache. The only option that I see at this point is to use a magnifier on the LCD screen as we would with our Large Format cameras, but the screen of the new M240 is much smaller to work with than a 4" X 5" camera screen.

Rich



Feb 15, 2013 at 10:11 PM
 

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zhangyue
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p.6 #11 · p.6 #11 · M240 Full Res Samples


Bijltje wrote:
Don't want to sound really old, but I have always used focus/ recompose. With my old SLR's, with my DSLR's and with my rangefinders.
It always worked just fine, even with really fast lenses like the 50/0,95 or teleprimes like the canon 200/2.8.



200 f2.8 will work but not sure about 50 0.95

I feel if you shoot WO and at or close to MFD, this will not work.

two problem:

1 focus distance will change when you recompose. DOF is too shallow. especially for really high density sensor, the focus error will show up even at f2.8 or f4 for 35-50mm. not to mention f.95 and f1.4
2. Field curvature. LV is the way to solve it. recompose will not work as the lens has no uniform in focus plane.

It may not be a problem for you. But I see it happens very often and easily.

edit: Rich you beat me for that.




Feb 15, 2013 at 10:11 PM
snowboarder
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p.6 #12 · p.6 #12 · M240 Full Res Samples


rscheffler wrote:
Thanks Julian for the explanation. Unfortunately this is Leica and it appears there will always be a 'gotcha' in body design/capability. And that they operate somewhat in their own dimension and price point. It's ultimately up to each of us to decide if the benefits (FF and ability to use virtually any current and past FF and larger format lenses) outweigh the cut corners (and steep cost of entry). My impression is this is a lot more difficult to accept for non-rangefinder users.

In some respects this shouldn't be a surprise if we take the M8 to M9 transition as an
...Show more

Agree with every word.
For me it's not even the question of money, it's simply a question of some major
annoyance in usage, that much harder to accept as I will have my tiny 5N in the same bag,
a camera designed a few years ago and discontinued already which will be that much better
than the brand new Leica "flag ship". Of course, that annoyance is harder to accept
comparing the price paid for both cameras.
To me LiveView is a major selling feature, without it I wouldn't consider it at all.
Shallow depth macro for example is impossible without scrolling around the screen,
so the only solution will be guessing and checking the picture, then guessing again...
The second missing feature is the LCD which doesn't tilt, this is equally major,
but I could accept that. But two f@#$ ups like that might be one too many...
And please stop "I don't need any of those gimmicks" talk, getting really old and tired...














Feb 15, 2013 at 10:22 PM
carstenw
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p.6 #13 · p.6 #13 · M240 Full Res Samples


snowboarder wrote:
And please stop "I don't need any of those gimmicks" talk, getting really old and tired...


While I agree with much of what you said, I don't agree with this. If someone doesn't need some of the new features, then that is their business.



Feb 15, 2013 at 10:33 PM
douglasf13
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p.6 #14 · p.6 #14 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
To be honest, I would prefer to have a Leica M10 with a typ 240 CMOS sensor, but without all this LV, video, focus peaking and magnified view gimmicks. I mean I hardly miss a shot with my M9 and it has no stinking magnified view. If the rangefinder is out of calibration, you got to fix it anyway, LV is no substitute. And if the rangefinder is well calibrated, you will get sharp photos anyway.


Heck, I'd like the M10 maybe even with the old CCD, as long as the shutter was quieter, battery life was better, processing was faster, it had weather sealing, etc. I never really imagined the M series to be a video/live view/landscape camera. The new M kind of reminds of the Porsche Cayenne, although the Cayenne is a big seller for Porsche, so I guess it makes sense.




Feb 15, 2013 at 11:20 PM
zhangyue
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p.6 #15 · p.6 #15 · M240 Full Res Samples


TBH, focus and recompose tech is not you want to choose but you have to choose for rangefinder. But I accept that long time ago at the time I buy into M system.

People need keep one thing in mind is leica is digital 'rangefinder'. It is not Super NEX.
It didi put design effort into this try to cover more audience, but not all. Just like Edward, I don't really need any of these new feature. Everything extra is cherry on top to me. Lack anything will not be show stopper as long as it still a rangefinder.

The only thing LCD really give me is I can put my leica or other zoom lens on it. Or long glass for landscape, which it seems do the trick.



Feb 15, 2013 at 11:47 PM
Bijltje
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p.6 #16 · p.6 #16 · M240 Full Res Samples


naturephoto1 wrote:
This will not work well for precise framing of many images, particularly when you are doing macro or close-up work. When you move the camera, you may not be able to re-position it to the originally intended composition. And working with T/S if that is your desire, this is a major headache. The only option that I see at this point is to use a magnifier on the LCD screen as we would with our Large Format cameras, but the screen of the new M240 is much smaller to work with than a 4" X 5" camera screen.

Rich


U are right, I didn't think of T/S or macro photography. Strange because I was looking for a possibility to use a T/S lens for an architectural shoot. I could choose between trading in my M9P for the M240 or keep the M9P and add a 6D.
At the bottom the 6D had so many more advantages over the M my pick would be the second. Thats why I suggested to look further or wider.
But off course I don't have a stack of R lenses.


The magnifier on the LCD wouldn't work that well I guess, I think it will mainly magnify the screen itself and u will see big pixels instead of the view U get with a large format camera and matte screen.


zhangyue wrote:
200 f2.8 will work but not sure about 50 0.95

I feel if you shoot WO and at or close to MFD, this will not work.

two problem:

1 focus distance will change when you recompose. DOF is too shallow. especially for really high density sensor, the focus error will show up even at f2.8 or f4 for 35-50mm. not to mention f.95 and f1.4
2. Field curvature. LV is the way to solve it. recompose will not work as the lens has no uniform in focus plane.

It may not be a problem for you. But I see it happens
...Show more

Honestly I mainly shoot wide open, and a lot close to MFD.
I used the 50/0,95 wide open at about 1 to 3 meter distance for portraits and all the shots were exactly were I wanted it (to my suprice, loaner nocti worked great with my camera right away)
But have to say I never really place the subject in the far corner, more like just outside the center or at 25% the most.

So maybe your right and its just a problem I don't walk into.

Maybe for the M250 leica could shop at hasselblad for their true focus system.



Feb 16, 2013 at 12:02 AM
redisburning
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p.6 #17 · p.6 #17 · M240 Full Res Samples


saying the Nex-5 is a better camera than the 240 when it has neither a coupled rangefinder nor an optical viewfinder nor a full frame sensor is ridiculous.

that is probably the most most garbage, trashcan post I have ever seen on this forum.

anyone who equates "more useful to me" with "objectively better" is a fool.



Feb 16, 2013 at 01:28 AM
_julian_
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p.6 #18 · p.6 #18 · M240 Full Res Samples


Keeping with the purity of experience approach to the new design has a strong appeal. As other's have said, carry over the frameline window, make it quieter and more covert like the heritage of Leica's old film cameras and work on improving the speed of handling.

That said, trying to imagine another situation where liveview is useful is with lenses like the ZM Sonar 50/1.5. Focus breathing changes the framing depending on subject distance, and focus shift means it's necessary to calibrate the lens to one aperture to work with the RF mechanism. In comparison to a rangefinder, the lens is simple and easy to use with a current NEX or GXR camera with its sensor based feedback.





Feb 16, 2013 at 02:10 AM
philber
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p.6 #19 · p.6 #19 · M240 Full Res Samples


carstenw wrote:
While I agree with much of what you said, I don't agree with this. If someone doesn't need some of the new features, then that is their business.


Carsten, I'll trade you. You get what you want, but, in return, no more "as there were countless fine photographers and fabulous pictures before LiveView came, everyone can do without proper LiveView implementation". That negates any form of progress, and is highly condescending, if not downright insulting, towards those who feel that a new and expensive camera should incorporate a feature that has been everywhere for the last 5 years and that they use all the time. Which, I will readily grant you, is not the case of all of us here, but of some, yes.

So, Carsten, deal? :-)

For info, I am presently on a landscape-shooting trip, and yesterday I checked how often I zoom in on "other than centre". I had thought it was 25-30% of the time, but found it to be even more often than that, because I actually rarely put the centre of interest of the image smack in the centre of the image.



Feb 16, 2013 at 02:45 AM
edwardkaraa
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p.6 #20 · p.6 #20 · M240 Full Res Samples


My remarks are not intended to be insulting or condescending to other photographers who need the extra features. That is why I said I will be happy with an M10 (so clearly talking about another possible model alongside the Typ 240) which lacks the extra non RF features that I don't really need. I never said that the Typ 240 should not have LV, or the scrolling of magnified view around the entire frame.

My point of view, based on MY use, is that I will be very happy with an M9 or M-E body incorporating the 24 MP CMOS sensor with the new micro-lenses design that does not require to be offset, nor the corner color shift correction via software or in the camera. The improvements that Douglas mentioned would also be welcomed. Also the improved RF accuracy and resistance to misalignment as well.

I have used the M9 for landscape photography on tripod and the results are too sharp with moire everywhere, so if anything I prefer it to be less sharp or less focus accuracy if anything



Feb 16, 2013 at 04:04 AM
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