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Archive 2013 · M240 Full Res Samples
  
 
Bijltje
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
IMHO, it is true that the M9 files have clarity and sparkle and natural looking color, but this has nothing to do with CCD vs CMOS. Both sensor types can produce all of the above. The clarity and sparkle are due to the lack of AA filter and the exceptional quality of Leica and Zeiss lenses that most M9 owners use. The natural color is a function of the CFA (color filter array) design, which coincidentally also affects high iso noise performance. CFA designed for maximum low iso quality will be too dense to produce good results at high iso.


If thats true it would be great.



Jan 31, 2013 at 10:04 PM
joe88
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · M240 Full Res Samples


douglasf13 wrote:
In my dream world, what I'd love is a new digital "MP" for less money than the M 240 that has the weathersealing, data throughput and silent shutter of the M 240, still has the frame lever, but removes the LCD in order to make the body thinner (and has no USB port, like the M-E,) and they could put an ISO dial on the back. Heck, they could even throw on a film advance lever, with auto advance being enabled in the menus, if you want it (you could still use the advance lever simply as a thumb rest.)
...Show more

I don't think we can live without a LCD screen with digital? At least I can't If you look at the Sony RX1, the body is thinner than the digital Ms. So maybe, I think, Leica could engineer a camera similar to the Leica CL- still with rangefinder focusing, a built in fixed lens 35 or 40 Summicron, and with the fixed lens, a silent leaf shutter. This could create another new market for Leica, a fourth segment for those that already have the M9/ME, 240 and Monochrom or street shooters who need a silent shutter. I'm not sure if Leica could price this type of camera cheaper than the M240 but even if they sell one with a fixed lens at Leica ME or M240 prices, you still get a built in lens, a silent discreet shutter, and it will be unique and different enough from the other M cameras that I would be interested. Would that interest you Douglas?

zhangyue wrote:
But the biggest complain I have is its shutter. In recent trip along with M3, and shutter on M3 like a music to me compare my M9's hopeless shutter design. I am sure it is even worse than my pretty suck D700, at least D700 has the snap.


In the meantime, you need a Sony RX1 with EVF, its silent as an analog M, has a Zeiss lens that I'm quite sure you could be pleased with . Not only the shutter, as Douglas mentioned the thinner bodies of the film M's are a joy to use.

Ron, I'm also looking forward to the X100s. Lets see if it is as capable as Fuji says.



Jan 31, 2013 at 10:04 PM
douglasf13
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
I don't think we can live without a LCD screen with digital? At least I can't If you look at the Sony RX1, the body is thinner than the digital Ms. So maybe, I think, Leica could engineer a camera similar to the Leica CL- still with rangefinder focusing, a built in fixed lens 35 or 40 Summicron, and with the fixed lens, a silent leaf shutter. This could create another new market for Leica, a fourth segment for those that already have the M9/ME, 240 and Monochrom or street shooters who need a silent shutter. I'm not
...Show more

The Leica cameras have to maintain a longer registration distance than the RX1, so you probably couldn't make any interchangeable M camera as thin as the RX1. The slight thickness differences between the M9 and M6 isn't THAT big of a deal, but I think it would be cool to market a niche, LCD-less digital for those of use who like to torture ourselves. Another thing that I don't like is that, with my camera on a strap slung across my body, the buttons on the control pad are always clicking against my belt. I'd like the back of the camera to be flat. No buttons, no new M 240 thumb wheel/grip, etc. Just a flat ISO dial. I hate using a thumbsup, because it digs into me when on a strap (main reason for my advance lever idea.) Granted, without an LCD, I'm not sure how one would format the sd card, which, along with ISO, is the only reason I use the M9's LCD. I really don't want or need a camera smaller than the M cameras, but I do kinda wish the digital Ms and film Ms were the same thickness and flatter on the back.

I wouldn't mind a fixed lens M, because leaf shutters are nice, but I wouldn't want the lower quality rangefinder of the CL in a small body. The newer shutter of the M 240 is probably good enough to me, although, really even the current M9 shutter doesn't bother me that much.

I'm sure my idea for a Leica camera is a little crazy, but user experience is what Leica is all about, to me. There are plenty of technically great cameras out there.



Jan 31, 2013 at 10:27 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · M240 Full Res Samples


I realize there is another M thread with this link, but I think this thread has a better discussion.

New, official M240 high-rez files with DNG download:
http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-news/2013/02/leica-m-images-jonathan-slack/



Feb 05, 2013 at 06:53 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · M240 Full Res Samples


Overall, I think these look really good. I'm particularly impressed with how much can be pulled back in the DNG of the girl with the dog, which is about one stop overexposed. Skin tone retention once pulled back looks really good.

That said, might still be some concern about shadow banding...

These are screen grabs out of LR4 of the bread loaf shot. This shot works great without shadow recovery, but from a technical perspective, this image offers a great challenge to see just how much can be pulled out of the deep blacks.

First image is default settings (other than WB tweak) with shadow recovery at 100:






Next, a series with exposure adjustment starting with +2 stops all the way to +5 stops:





















Should we be concerned?

Hmmm... Depends. The way I shoot the M9 is with a preference to underexposure and recovering in post. Likely the M240 will require a rethink of best exposure practices. But it might be of concern with high dynamic range scenes if recovering shadow detail results in this kind of pattern banding. Basically looks like the 5DII/III problem, doesn't it?

Maybe give Leica the benefit of the doubt since it's still preproduction?



Feb 05, 2013 at 07:00 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · M240 Full Res Samples


Totally agreed Ron. But to me, this looks like a typical CCD vs CMOS issue. While the M9 sensor prefers underexposure, it seems the M sensor likes ETTR. For those who shoot DSLR, this should be a non issue. But for M9 shooters, there should be definitely a change of approach.


Feb 05, 2013 at 07:14 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · M240 Full Res Samples


OK, I read through the LUF thread about these photos and it looks like the above bread loaf shot was an earlier preproduction firmware. I tried similar adjustments with the map and glasses photos, which is about two months newer, and it's somewhat better. Pattern noise can still be seen, but a 2-3 stop push is less objectionable and the hot pixels are not as hot...

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2306417-post26.html

"The photos comes from two different cameras: 4444021 and 4444319.
The images from the last camera seems very clean.
First camera has visible pattern noise, but this noise disappears in FW version 0.1.10.0"

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2306465-post34.html

Jono Slack: "It's to do with sensor calibration - that camera was a very early prototype (I actually used 3 different cameras and this was the first), and this is something you might find in one or two of the images - it's known and fixed in the later cameras."

Kind of wonder, why Leica included earlier FW images in the official release, unless they want to show the progress of improvement? Since naturally these files will be pushed and abused a fair amount. But the images themselves are quite nice, so maybe that's why?

So, I guess we need to wait an see what the actual shipping firmware will produce. The later map shot though still show some pattern banding, just it looks a bit blurred out, so perhaps there is some RAW-level NR going on to address this.



Feb 05, 2013 at 07:24 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · M240 Full Res Samples


Regarding wide angle lenses:

http://www.l-camera-forum.com/leica-forum/2306763-post77.html

Jono Slack: "It's much much better than the M9, although the CV 15 still produces some vignetting (as you might expect). Colour shift itself (i.e. with different colours on different sides) is not something I've seen at all - even doing silly things like manually coding a WATE as an 80/200 f4 R lens (yes, I've done things as silly as that!)"



Feb 05, 2013 at 07:44 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · M240 Full Res Samples


Thanks for all the information Ron. Overall, the results look very good to my eye...


Feb 05, 2013 at 08:19 PM
douglasf13
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
Totally agreed Ron. But to me, this looks like a typical CCD vs CMOS issue. While the M9 sensor prefers underexposure, it seems the M sensor likes ETTR. For those who shoot DSLR, this should be a non issue. But for M9 shooters, there should be definitely a change of approach.


FWIW, most of the cameras with an Exmor CMOS sensor in the last couple of years also behave like the M9 in this regard. It's really mostly the Canon CMOS and some Nikon camera that don't (D700, D3, etc.)



Feb 05, 2013 at 08:33 PM
 

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Jabberwockt
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · M240 Full Res Samples


Wow, that is interesting. I think the new M would be a much stronger camera if it did not have banding noise, hopefully it gets stamped out in the final production version. Maybe it is just me or maybe it is an optical predisposition of the human brain, but straight lines do not exist in nature and when it shows up in the shadow noise, it just looks unnatural and distracting to me.


Feb 05, 2013 at 08:53 PM
buggz2k
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · M240 Full Res Samples


Hah, this is my chief concern/question.
I would like to see a direct comparison of a RAW file from the new sensor and the M9, same subject, lens, perspective, lighting, etc.

Lee Saxon wrote:
I can't believe people are still talking about CCD vs CMOS. .




Feb 05, 2013 at 09:38 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · M240 Full Res Samples


Well, the banding noise isn't noticeable until you push the files, though my observation is the higher ISO images do have hints of banding without any pushing, if you look carefully. Still better than the M9. The high ISO images look very promising. The grain is very tight with no luminance NR in LR4.


Feb 05, 2013 at 10:42 PM
charles.K
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · M240 Full Res Samples


Ron, Great stuff! Thanks for the comparisons, and information. It will interesting to see how the cam performs in the flesh. I would not imagine it is too far away from being delivered now.




Feb 06, 2013 at 01:27 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · M240 Full Res Samples


The banding thing is difficult, because it could be more than just the sensor. I can push the heck out of M9 files if I shoot a single shot (or maybe two,) but if I shoot a series of shots while the camera is still processing, banding shows up in the 2nd or 3rd shot and gets worse from there. In very lowlight, I basically shoot one shot, wait for the buffer to clear, wait another 5 seconds, and then shoot again. Who knows if the M 240 will have similar issues?


Feb 06, 2013 at 01:44 AM
Mescalamba
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · M240 Full Res Samples


douglasf13 wrote:
The banding thing is difficult, because it could be more than just the sensor. I can push the heck out of M9 files if I shoot a single shot (or maybe two,) but if I shoot a series of shots while the camera is still processing, banding shows up in the 2nd or 3rd shot and gets worse from there. In very lowlight, I basically shoot one shot, wait for the buffer to clear, wait another 5 seconds, and then shoot again. Who knows if the M 240 will have similar issues?


Then it does have something to do with processor, not sensor probably. Unless its visible on +/- 1eV pics, Im ok with that. Anyway its not like Im going to buy it sooner than in next 10 years..



Feb 06, 2013 at 02:51 AM
douglasf13
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · M240 Full Res Samples


Mescalamba wrote:
Then it does have something to do with processor, not sensor probably. Unless its visible on +/- 1eV pics, Im ok with that. Anyway its not like Im going to buy it sooner than in next 10 years..


The banding on the M9 can be visible at higher ISOs without any exposure boost at all in post.



Feb 06, 2013 at 03:13 AM
John Black
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · M240 Full Res Samples


Successive shots heat up the sensor (true of both CCD and CMOS) and that leads to noisier files. Pausing between images (ie - letting the buffer clear) gives the sensor time to cool down. The noise levels will be different if shooting in summer heat vs cold winter.

With regards to the sample images, the were taking across a period of time with different firmware revisions. For gauging shadow noise, the image with the map on the desk was the latest firmware (according to Jono). Shame on Leica on posting images with earlier versions of firmware. That's going to be counterproductive to their marketing efforts. If Leica is continuing to improve up on the noise levels beyond what is seen in the map image, then it looks like they'll have a good file.

Also, it's worthwhile noting that neither LightRoom nor C1 have profiles for the M240 images, so I expect to see further improvement once the M240 is officially supported with dedicated profiles and whatever else they do under the hood.



Feb 06, 2013 at 06:46 PM
rscheffler
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · M240 Full Res Samples


There are a few more 'unofficial' M240 DNGs available from Dr. Rohde: http://the.me/more-leica-m-sample-images/

My comments: can't find any banding with these and all ISOs here looks better than his earlier ISO 320 samples. I noticed that while he's still using the same camera, these images are with FW 0.1.9.0 rather than 0.1.8.1. FWIW, the later images by Jono Slack were shot on FW 0.1.10.0 and a 'much' later serial number camera, but still show traces of banding. Chris Tribble's images and the earlier ones by Jono Slack (but perhaps not the bread shot) were done with the same camera, though unfortunately the FW information in Chris's files is overwritten. Point is it's probably a reason why both sets share banding characteristics - it's the same camera.

From Dr. Rohde's new set, the one of the girl on the couch, again shows promise with highlight recovery, though no miracles will happen with totally blown details. In this respect, film still has a nicer highlight rolloff. Most of these files are again in the Adobe 2010 process, for some reason. If you reset them and change to 2012 process, you'll find, especially with the girl on couch photo, that highlight transitions are much better with much less clipping. The head & shoulder portrait is a difficult one, IMO. The skin tone just never seems right, to my eyes. I suspect there is some ambient light pollution in the image due to her skin tone transition to very yellow around the side of her head.

There's also a second thread at LUF dedicated to Chris Tribble's images, though toward the end it gets drawn out about whether there is any merit to the CCD vs. CMOS debate and whether the M240 SOOC output has a 3D quality seen in M9...

Another revelation in this thread is how the M240 live view works while zoomed in: it only zooms in to the center of the image and does not allow any scrolling around. This will be very, very disappointing for anyone hoping to use the M240 in live view mode to obtain critical focus of off-center subject matter without having to focus and recompose, especially if working off a tripod. Jono Slack seems to think that in general it isn't much of an issue, at least in hand held use. Apparently this is a processor related restriction. I am somewhat disappointed about this because it's a feature/function that is available in every other live view camera I've ever used, going all the way back to the 'ancient' 1DIII of 2007. Kind of baffled as to why, 6 years later, it's an issue for Leica. On the other hand, it will simplify matters a fair amount for spontaneous shooting where a quick live view zoomed in focus confirmation is desired...



Feb 12, 2013 at 07:17 PM
zhangyue
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · M240 Full Res Samples


rscheffler wrote:
Another revelation in this thread is how the M240 live view works while zoomed in: it only zooms in to the center of the image and does not allow any scrolling around.

What this is huge for many people. center focus will be enough for general landscape. but still?



Feb 12, 2013 at 07:45 PM
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