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Archive 2013 · M240 Full Res Samples
  
 
zhangyue
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p.14 #1 · p.14 #1 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
Douglas, I'm with you on this. I have a LCD cover and it works fine but have to admit I have replaced the Giotto glass covers more than once. The fact that if you read around forums, quite a few Leica M9 users upgraded to a M9P even though the P does not improve on the camera's performance tell us that for some Leica users, USD$1k is nothing to them just to own a more beautiful camera. The allure of Silver chrome or dotless Leica?

What I don't really agree about Leica today are their stores. Those are costly to run
...Show more

Sadly, how true. It is men's Hermes. At least, that is their Market direction. Leica always be a luxury brand, but I guess it never be a fashion way like it now. During recent trip in FL, in one church, a old gentlemen spot my Leica M3 and said he has the same one, is the most loved camera along with his 35cron. but now he will not spend that much(or afford) on M9. I can feel his love from his eyes.

I am with most of leica shooters here, I wish Leica simplify its offer than get into more modern stuff. optimize its core spirit than broad its audience. Let people work with its limitation, use it for whatever it is designed for, think of improve their skill, technique himself than rely on modern technology. A NEX-9 like Leica M is a dead end. it will dust into history once Japanese can come up a camera do everything better than this EXPENSIVE MILC leica.

In that sense, I don't feel this half baked modern M240 will be as half success as M9. At least, that is my prediction.




Feb 25, 2013 at 08:10 PM
thrice
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p.14 #2 · p.14 #2 · M240 Full Res Samples


I hope you don't mind me commenting on your comments Carsten, I am not in any way trying to be antagonistic.

carstenw wrote:
- Higher resolution sensor (18MP is enough for me; I would buy an 18-24MP D800 if one existed)

18 to 24mp is a very small linear increase. It is due to the most stable manufacturing processes and design compromises.

carstenw wrote:
- More accurate RF (Really? Confirmed or marketing? User adjustable? More accurate or more precise?)
- 2m frames (the M8.2 already had this. The M9 was a regression.)

Same thing, but the RF mechanism is the same as M9. Only frameline optimisation is changed.

carstenw wrote:
- Illuminated frames (Schnick-schnack. If you can't see the frame lines, there is no light.)

I have shot night scapes where there wasn't enough light for framelines. This is just an evolution, I recommend trying it before knocking it.

carstenw wrote:
- No card issues (Confirmed? I never had problems with my cards.)

I didn't know you shot at M9? Mine has had the occasional card issue with approved cards. They are minor though.

carstenw wrote:
- No cracked sensors (Confirmed? I never had a cracked sensor.)

The package is quite differently designed, as can be seen below, it should be more durable.


carstenw wrote:
- Higher framerate (For those M sports photographers or run-and-gun millionaire PJs.)
- Larger buffer (")

I hit the buffer regularly when shooting stitched and/or bracketed panos using my Nodal ninja. It was extremely frustrating when light was rapidly changing.
The new shutter will also allow you to set a 'middle' exposure and bracket around it, something mechanically impossible on the M9.

carstenw wrote:
- 3 metering modes (I use A for everything I do, sometimes with Auto-ISO.)

You misinterpret the term "metering mode" it refers to center weighted (as in previous M's), spot and matrix. The latter being useful for any shot with a strong point light-source, an Achilles of the M9.

carstenw wrote:
- Better high ISO. <= First point I missed that I care about. True.

The chief request from M9 owners.

carstenw wrote:
- Live View (Listed separately, since this is the source of the current controversy.)
- Magnified view (What is this item, listed separately from live view?)

For me, basic live-view for composition and grad positioning is great, don't care at all about magnification because I focus using the scale on the lens for landscape.

carstenw wrote:
The price is also nuts.

But less nuts than any other digital M.


Edited on Feb 25, 2013 at 09:30 PM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:15 PM
carstenw
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p.14 #3 · p.14 #3 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
So, who are Leica's core market?

[...]

For the Leica M, probably someone in the late 30s or early 40s onwards (or even older depending on geographical location), with a comfortable sustainable income to afford the price of admission of getting digital M setup? I think professionals probably account for less that 5% of Leica digital M users but with the M240 it might grow? No disrespect to younger photographers, but how many 20 something year old can afford a $7000 camera ( or even a $4000 used one) without lenses? Probably less than 1% of the photography market? It took
...Show more

I am not sure I agree about the 5% number. Like you, I am sure that the traditional market stepped back into the M9, while many were waiting out the M8. Doctors, lawyers, architects (), and so on. Note that even jobless architects typically have more disposable income than the vast majority of the people on earth, no jab but reality, and I have known people who could have saved for a year and not been able to set aside much more than 10-15% of the money for an M. I am sure that youngish successful professionals are a large part of the market, certainly double-digit percent, and possible quite a chunk. I am almost sure that rapidly growing Asian countries are significantly represented, and probably Russia too, which makes me wonder a bit about the long-term stability of Leica's market, since so much of it is based on prestige, but again, I am certain that significant double-digit percentages are going to medium- to high-level managers in China etc.

That probably accounts for 90%+ right there, with a few key PJs, some singers and stars, and a few fanatic (or rich) students making up the difference.



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:22 PM
thrice
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p.14 #4 · p.14 #4 · M240 Full Res Samples


One thing I am privy to is the volume of M240 preorders.
Despite the doom & gloom a lot of your foretell, they are much higher than M9 preorders.

Oh and I was 25 when I got the M9. 24 when I got my M6 and 21 when I started using Leica. I worked in retail that entire time earning minimum wage.



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:22 PM
zhangyue
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p.14 #5 · p.14 #5 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
One thing I am privy to is the volume of M240 preorders.
Despite the doom & gloom a lot of your foretell, they are much higher than M9 preorders.

Oh and I was 25 when I got the M9. 24 when I got my M6 and 21 when I started using Leica. I worked in retail that entire time earning minimum wage.


Great to know! I will see how long this can last, it is a long run. Good start doesn't mean winning the race



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:26 PM
carstenw
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p.14 #6 · p.14 #6 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
Douglas, I'm also one of those who don't mind the loud shutter. In fact I'm not into taking sneaking shots and when I shoot people I want them to be fully aware of that. That is why I never understood the need for the discreet shutter noise.


If it is loud, it could at least be attractive! The original M8 sound made me wince each time I used it, so fugly. I couldn't wait to upgrade to M8u.



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:26 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.14 #7 · p.14 #7 · M240 Full Res Samples


I honestly feel the M240 sales will be much higher than the M9. Time will tell I suppose....


Feb 25, 2013 at 09:29 PM
carstenw
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p.14 #8 · p.14 #8 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
I hope you don't mind me commenting on your comments Carsten, I am not in any way trying to be antagonistic.


Sure, let's banter I have removed any points which I don't contend, I didn't mean them to sound as if I thought them unimportant, simply that I personally don't care.


I have shot night scapes where there wasn't enough light for framelines. This is just an evolution, I recommend trying it before knocking it


I doubt I will get the opportunity, but I was out at night with my M8, and was never unable to see the frame lines. Not always easy, but I am not sure I would trade "a little hard to see" for "might be hard to ignore".


I didn't know you shot at M9? Mine has had the occasional card issue with approved cards. They are minor though.


You mean there were *new* card issues introduced with the M9?? I thought these were the same issues the M8 had. I don't know about the M9, only shot it once, and the card worked fine.

I hit the buffer regularly when shooting stitched and/or bracketed panos using my Nodal ninja. It was extremely frustrating when light was rapidly changing.
The new shutter will also allow you to set a 'middle' exposure and bracket around it, something mechanically impossible on the M9.


True, I now recall hitting the buffer limit when I was shooting panos and HDRs. Still, the choice between paying for the upgrade or slowing down a bit wouldn't be hard for me to make. The M price is much too high for my taste, and if you aren't willing to slow down a little, the M is probably the wrong system for most users.


You misinterpret the term "metering mode" it refers to center weighted (as in previous M's), spot and matrix. The latter being useful for any shot with a strong point light-source, an Achilles of the M9.


Ah, metering patterns. Spot is cool. Matrix is hard to get right, I withhold judgement. IMO only Nikon has ever made this work.


For me, basic live-view for composition and grad positioning is great, don't care at all about magnification because I focus using the scale on the lens for landscape.


Granted, but also a sub-point of the intended use.


But less nuts than any other digital M.


How so? If you mean that you get much more for your money than with an M9, I refute your point. You still buy mostly things which have nothing to do with the cost of the technology inside, when you buy Leica.

---

Part of my original point may have been lost: a lot of the claimed improvements need to be proven before being listed as advantages. Trial under fire has a way to reveal unexpected weaknesses and flaws.



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:33 PM
carstenw
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p.14 #9 · p.14 #9 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
What I don't really agree about Leica today are their stores. Those are costly to run and Leica stores are popping up everywhere in really expensive and upscale locations. I would rather Leica focus on producing the best rangefinder camera and lenses rather than throw away all these marketing cost on their stores? I think if they opened a few less Leica boutiques, they could very well have used the money to invest in more R&D for the M240 to make it an even better camera and this thread didn't have to exist? Which is partly the other reason I
...Show more

To my knowledge, most of the Leica stores are not owned by Leica, but are licensed franchises. Can someone confirm or deny this? In this case, it is like Apple store-in-stores and so on, and is brilliant.

Speaking of Apple similarities, the switch from M9 to M was presumably a follow-up to the switch from iPad 2 to iPad, which in my opinion was conceived by a dumbass. I don't know anyone who was happy about that, and lots of people who thought it stunk. Everyone I know says iPad 3 and iPad 4, and M240, which is even worse.

Maybe in two years they will offer a 1000 Euro upgrade to put in the missing "10"



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:39 PM
thrice
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p.14 #10 · p.14 #10 · M240 Full Res Samples




I doubt I will get the opportunity, but I was out at night with my M8, and was never unable to see the frame lines. Not always easy, but I am not sure I would trade "a little hard to see" for "might be hard to ignore".


You can toggle between red and white framelines. The former not affecting night vision. Brightness is also adjusted according to ambient.


I didn't know you shot at M9? Mine has had the occasional card issue with approved cards. They are minor though.

You mean there were *new* card issues introduced with the M9?? I thought these were the same issues the M8 had. I don't know about the M9, only shot it once, and the card worked fine.


I'm not sure if they were new but they were definitely there. I had to pop a battery several times when hitting the buffer hard. I also had a few corrupt files in the early days and one dead card.



True, I now recall hitting the buffer limit when I was shooting panos and HDRs. Still, the choice between paying for the upgrade or slowing down a bit wouldn't be hard for me to make. The M price is much too high for my taste, and if you aren't willing to slow down a little, the M is probably the wrong system for most users.


The price for the new M is less than the M9.
Shooting preference is not really the debate. I can see why a photojournalist would consider an M240 but not an M9.



Ah, metering patterns. Spot is cool. Matrix is hard to get right, I withhold judgement. IMO only Nikon has ever made this work.


I had no problems with matrix on either the 5Dc or the 5D-II.



Granted, but also a sub-point of the intended use.


Who's intended use? R users?



How so? If you mean that you get much more for your money than with an M9, I refute your point. You still buy mostly things which have nothing to do with the cost of the technology inside, when you buy Leica.


M9 MAP: $6995
M240 MAP: $6950

---

Part of my original point may have been lost: a lot of the claimed improvements need to be proven before being listed as advantages. Trial under fire has a way to reveal unexpected weaknesses and flaws.


Leica exist in their own little ecosystem, what internet pundits and armchair experts might see as deal-breakers have very little influence on the actual sales since these users were unlikely to buy a Leica regardless.

I think a lot of people need to reserve judgment a little. When the camera gets out into the wild, profiles are created and people learn the quirks it'll be a different story.
I remember when the M9 launched and people whinged about low DR, poor colour and high noise. Things have changed quite a bit.


Edited on Feb 25, 2013 at 09:51 PM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2013 at 09:47 PM
 

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carstenw
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p.14 #11 · p.14 #11 · M240 Full Res Samples


Paring down...



I'm not sure if they were new but they were definitely there. I had to pop a battery several times when hitting the buffer hard. I also had a few corrupt files in the early days and one dead card.


Sounds exactly like the M8. Scary, actually, when you consider the time they had to work on it.

I had no problems with matrix on either the 5Dc or the 5D-II.

Really? Okay, well, erm, I did. Not with the 5DII which I have only used a limited number of times and have not really tested for this ability, but with the 5D, which I lost my infatuation with faster than any other camera I have owned.



Who's intended use? R users?


No, normal live view users. The sorts of people who pop it on to compose, zoom in and scroll to inspect depth of field and set the focus just right at the place of choice. For these people the M is a complete miss. I have worked like that for years now and would never get another camera which can't do that. I couldn't work.


M9 MAP: $6995
M240 MAP: $6950


Ah, the M9 price is higher than I remembered. Did it go up? At this price the M9 no longer makes any sense, so it isn't much of an argument to say that the M is less expensive than a bad deal, or?


Leica exist in their own little ecosystem, what internet pundits and armchair experts might see as deal-breakers have very little influence on the actual sales since these users were unlikely to buy a Leica regardless.


I am not sure this statement does Leica any favours. I think it is a viable company, but moving into digital, however necessary, has pushed Leica outside its comfort bounds, and they have to be careful how often they raised the price and under deliver. It might not work forever. An anachronistic film camera is still a lot more viable than a half-baked digital one. Most competitors have better features in every way, except simplicity. Only two slim advantages remain: full frame and rangefinder. The former will fall, maybe this year, the latter matters to fewer and fewer people each year.

Oh, and I saw that the dimensions increased by 0.5mm somewhere? If that isn't accounted for by the thumbwheel, I would send someone to the garrets, were I in Leica management. The whole grail here is M6 (original) dimensions, possibly with screen sticking out at the back, and were I in charge, I would make sure that 1mm would be shaved off the difference with every generation until done. The current dimensions don't feel right. My M6 was perfect, and from others who know, I have heard the same thing over and over.



Feb 25, 2013 at 10:00 PM
naturephoto1
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p.14 #12 · p.14 #12 · M240 Full Res Samples


I was 30 years old and a Grad student in 1984 when I purchased my first new Leica an R4S and a 50mm Summicron lens. I had had an entire Canon system that I traded toward the Leica. I also had a part time job at the time though was paid more than minimum wage. We know how little money most Grad students have.

In 1986, while still a Grad Student, I purchased new my 280mm f2.8 Apo Telyt lens and had purchased many other lenses prior to that.

With the introduction of the M240. Leica has offered fairly little as to the
...Show more





Edited on Feb 25, 2013 at 10:23 PM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2013 at 10:05 PM
carstenw
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p.14 #13 · p.14 #13 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
I remember when the M9 launched and people whinged about low DR, poor colour and high noise. Things have changed quite a bit.


Yes, people figured out the colour (in daylight).

One of my reasons for stepping out of the M system was suffering through the M8 with filters (which killed a number of shots, but shooting without was worse), and then seeing the clear tell-tale signs that the M9 was still too IR sensitive. That just killed me.



Feb 25, 2013 at 10:20 PM
thrice
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p.14 #14 · p.14 #14 · M240 Full Res Samples




No, normal live view users. The sorts of people who pop it on to compose, zoom in and scroll to inspect depth of field and set the focus just right at the place of choice. For these people the M is a complete miss. I have worked like that for years now and would never get another camera which can't do that. I couldn't work.


Interesting. And fair enough, these people shouldn't consider the M240. Nor a rangefinder camera for that matter. Imagine getting fully invested into Leica glass expecting them to manufacture a camera system unlike their forte or tradition. Insanity.



carstenw wrote:

Ah, the M9 price is higher than I remembered. Did it go up? At this price the M9 no longer makes any sense, so it isn't much of an argument to say that the M is less expensive than a bad deal, or?


No it didn't go up. In Australia I paid significantly more than that for my M9.
M9P MAP is 7995
Monochrom MAP is 7950.
MP MAP is 4995
M7 MAP is 4995
I think M8 was 4495



carstenw wrote:
I am not sure this statement does Leica any favours. I think it is a viable company, but moving into digital, however necessary, has pushed Leica outside its comfort bounds, and they have to be careful how often they raised the price and under deliver. It might not work forever. An anachronistic film camera is still a lot more viable than a half-baked digital one. Most competitors have better features in every way, except simplicity. Only two slim advantages remain: full frame and rangefinder. The former will fall, maybe this year, the latter matters to fewer and fewer people each
...Show more

All I can say is the marketing and product design direction and positioning Leica have adopted is yielding huge profits. Leica putting in their own stores has increased business in surrounding dealers noticeably. One dealer I look after installed an in-store boutique and Leica sales more than doubled. The strategy is sound, and is proving itself in tough market conditions. Photography purist might not like it, but the majority of customers do.

I know the M6 is great in dimensions and I miss mine. The new M body is 0.5mm (you know how little that is right?) thicker, not due to the thumb wheel. There is a lot on the distant horizon to make everyone happy, maybe even you Carsten. If the M240 does not tick enough boxes, maybe wait for the next product.

Off topic and not referring to your contributions to the discussion, but one thing that amazes me is how Leica brings people who don't actually want the product out of the woodwork to comment



Feb 25, 2013 at 10:38 PM
thrice
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p.14 #15 · p.14 #15 · M240 Full Res Samples


carstenw wrote:
The clear tell-tale signs that the M9 was still too IR sensitive. That just killed me.


I think they got the IR sensitivity perfect on the M9. It has never affected a single shot except when I use an IR pass filter for deliberate effect. Something you cannot do as successfully with other digital cameras.







Can you give me information or an example of the M9 having problems with IR in real world shooting? If you link Digilloyd I will try and throttle you through your computer monitor



Feb 25, 2013 at 10:45 PM
joe88
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p.14 #16 · p.14 #16 · M240 Full Res Samples


carstenw wrote:
I am not sure I agree about the 5% number.......

and I have known people who could have saved for a year and not been able to set aside much more than 10-15% of the money for an M. I am sure that youngish successful professionals are a large part of the market, certainly double-digit percent, and possible quite a chunk. I am almost sure that rapidly growing Asian countries are significantly represented, and probably Russia too, which makes me wonder a bit about the long-term stability of Leica's market, since so much of it is based on prestige, but
...Show more

I just made a guess for the 5% but it could be even less if you bring in Asia into the equation. The percentages are larger than 5% if you skew the average to developed and high GDP countries such as some countries in EU (Germany and Sweden? ) and probably the USA (funded by credit card debt and cheap money). Also I suspect these pros probably use the M9 for some paid work and mostly personal work.

thrice wrote:
One thing I am privy to is the volume of M240 preorders.
Despite the doom & gloom a lot of your foretell, they are much higher than M9 preorders.

Oh and I was 25 when I got the M9. 24 when I got my M6 and 21 when I started using Leica. I worked in retail that entire time earning minimum wage.


First, we do not know what actual percentages of pre-orders turn into real orders and how many people have pre-ordered at least with two or three dealers to increase their chances? I personally, pre-ordered across two continents to increase my chances. So it could be that the demand is still high, but I would guess probably actual sales to be somewhere in the 20-30% of expected pre-orders.

And consider yourself blessed and fortunate to be able to afford a Leica M9 with minimum wages. Maybe I need to move to Australia or send my kids there But seriously, just for comparison, an average engineer, accountant, architect or lawyer starting out in South East Asia or China after college/university (Singapore excluded) probably earns USD 10,000 to USD 18,000 a year or even less. For someone to afford a Leica M9 in those countries (which is probably where the growth numbers for Leica are), you have to quite rich, a superstar celebrity, or sponsored by Leica, PERIOD.

thrice wrote:
All I can say is the marketing and product design direction and positioning Leica have adopted is yielding huge profits. Leica putting in their own stores has increased business in surrounding dealers noticeably. One dealer I look after installed an in-store boutique and Leica sales more than doubled. The strategy is sound, and is proving itself in tough market conditions. Photography purist might not like it, but the majority of customers do.

There is a lot on the distant horizon to make everyone happy, maybe even you Carsten. If the M240 does not tick enough boxes, maybe wait for the next
...Show more

Daniel, I hope you are nor referring to some of us here who are complaining and are also current M9 users?

I hope the concept of Leica stores work out well, seems like Leica is really moving in the Apple direction. I am just curious, sales increased for those dealers - are these for Leica M products or rebranded Panasonics or maybe the dealer sold one S2 and that alone doubled his sales?

FYI, please do not misunderstand me, I am not against Leica, but they have to acknowledge that I like many others who complain are also a customer, and you seem to sound that customers like me are not important to Leica, and if that is the case, I might just give up my Leica fetishes and choose another platform, after all its the photographer that makes the pictures not the camera.



Feb 25, 2013 at 11:00 PM
rscheffler
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p.14 #17 · p.14 #17 · M240 Full Res Samples


Joe, I have to disagree about the stores. I think they're brilliant, though that's solely based on my experience with the Munich store.

I can only speak from my own experience, but before the one in Munich opened, it was painful to visit normal higher-end camera stores in Munich and try anything Leica. The stock allotment was usually quite limited, or as one pro-shop staffer explained to me, nearly impossible to get any stock in the first place (this was in late 2010 during Leica's inventory crunch). Staff in those stores were understandably busy dealing with customers wanting to see all sorts of different brands. It wasn't an environment where someone could wander in and spend some leisurely time asking questions and trying gear.

I think this last point is especially relevant to the (rich) clientele Leica is after with the placement of stores in trendy, expensive shopping districts. These types of buyers expect personalized service and quite probably would be off-put by 'normal' camera store environments. It's also in Leica's interest to be able to showcase their wares in an attractive manner that generally is impossible in regular stores, competing for shelf space with much higher volume sellers from Canikony. The pro-shop I referred to above had a Nikon pro-shop within it.

My biggest apprehension walking into the Munich store the very first time was that I'm not a rich-looking guy (nor am I rich) and being received by snooty, condescending sales staff, or simply ignored (like whenever my GF would drag me into the LV, etc., boutiques down the street ). At least in Munich - no worries. The staff have been great. What I received was patience and understanding (for my 50 Lux problem, as well as my obviously non-native German), an easy way to have equipment shipped to Solms, and a great chance to try various lenses. The staff seemed quite into the gear as well, which made shop-talk enjoyable. I guess my point is, behind that veneer of upscale pretentiousness, it's actually an enjoyable photographic environment. Does it come at a cost? Definitely, but the experience might just be worth it (I wish it was a more common retail experience).

But I know what you're getting after. My take on Leica's decision with the stores is they really, desperately need, those types of (rich) buyers to pay the freight, otherwise the M and S systems are too niche to generate what seems to be the kind of revenue needed to maintain relatively cutting edge R&D and keep the company relevant among actual photographers. Kind of like airlines rely on first and business class flyers so that the rest of us can have a nice, reasonably priced holiday from time to time.

So, yes, I imagine there is fat in the Leica system. But is that such a bad thing, within reason? I think it's great they can staff the stores with 4-5 courteous, attentive, clerks each day, rather than a couple who are constantly frazzled. Likewise with their marketing and events, which I'm sure are very costly, but also necessary to build the brand. Bottom line is it keeps them in business and employs many very skilled people, whether in Germany or Portugal (or Australia!). Quite certainly more people than would be possible if they focused on the low-end, high volume, low margin market.

Somewhat OT, but I'm getting a discouraged by society's ceaseless quest to get more for less. Sure, there is logic to fat-cutting, but not when it's down to the bone. It's certainly human nature to look for good deals, but I'd prefer to see a bit more focus on value than simply cost.




Feb 25, 2013 at 11:06 PM
thrice
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p.14 #18 · p.14 #18 · M240 Full Res Samples


The Australian pre-orders are all money down, not just names on a list. In the USA the situation may be different but I have no way of knowing that information.

I consider myself determined to shoot with a Leica, I started with cheap used Leicas when I was 21 (2005) and consistently bought and sold (usually at a profit) for 5+ years to afford JUST the M9 body.

Dealers who do not have boutiques cannot sell the S in Australia.
I am referring solely to M sales.

Current M9 users who do not find the m240 appealing should stick with their M9, unless the M9 is suddenly not up to snuff.
Many Leica customers are extremely critical and feel they are 'owed' something by the company.
As a manufacturer Leica try to be very accommodating.



Feb 25, 2013 at 11:09 PM
joe88
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p.14 #19 · p.14 #19 · M240 Full Res Samples


Ron, OK, I take my comments back and maybe I was too quick to make those earlier statements because I was expecting the same type of behavior when we associate Leica with these expensive brands (snobbishness, rudeness, etc of Hermes or LV stores). I do agree, Leica need these type of well heeled customers and maybe a Leica store in Boston would be great so that I could try out gear locally.

Daniel, thanks for the information, good to know from someone who works for Leica. I appreciate you sharing some of this info. You seem to hint of future outlook after the M240.. now that would be interesting!

I think the "critical" feeling is part of the norm with luxury goods, not limited to Leica. It is a consumer behavior, if they pay more for it, they expect less failures, and in the USA at least, you will get this type of "critical" complains against cars from Germany such as BMW, Audi or Mercedes.

Edit: to answer your question on pre-orders here in the USA, most dealers do not take money down and many of us put our names down with more than one dealer as we do not know how supplies are allocated. I wished dealers would take a deposit and that would weed out a lot of the duplicated pre-orders. I mean I called a dealer a few days before the M240 was officially announced, and he already had pre-orders running a few months prior.




Feb 25, 2013 at 11:28 PM
rscheffler
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p.14 #20 · p.14 #20 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
So, who are Leica's core market?

For the S2 it seems clear that it is the medium format digital pro / advertising photographers and very well heeled enthusiasts.

For the Leica M, probably someone in the late 30s or early 40s onwards (or even older depending on geographical location), with a comfortable sustainable income to afford the price of admission of getting digital M setup? I think professionals probably account for less that 5% of Leica digital M users but with the M240 it might grow? No disrespect to younger photographers, but how many 20 something year old can afford a
...Show more

I don't know the answer to this, but from a working photographer's perspective, shooting with Leica is generally not a logical business decision. There are many other options that can be had for much less money and broader technical capabilities. But I would also say this is becoming more the case for all higher-end equipment. Do I need a 1DX for most of my work? No, but it's great for the (declining) amount of sports work I do. I could probably get by with a 7D and correspondingly shorter lens instead.

As for how to afford it as a young photographer... Looking back to my 20s, I bought a new 400/2.8 with cash when I was 22. I also worked minimum wage in retail at that time. But of course, I made lifestyle sacrifices. I think if someone really wants something, they'll find a way to get it. It just gets somewhat easier as one gets older, assuming a 'normal' life with a decent job, quite possibly a reason many M-shooters are in their 30s and later. My retail experience with doctors, at least in this area, was they mostly wanted Nikon or Canon for wildlife/landscape work. It might be one reason why wildlife photography is an even worse choice than sports photography as a living. Too many good photographers without the need for it to support them. We also had a few Leica-centric customers, who on the whole were either academics or in well paying professions.

One theory I hold for why we don't see more young Leica photographers (though there seem to be many in Japan, HK and Singapore, when browsing Flickr), is the lack of spec-sheet appeal. I think this was one reason I had difficulty warming up to the M3 and 50/90 combo I bought used around 1990, and kept only a short time. It just didn't have the technological coolness of the Canon gear I lusted after at the time, which was when EOS was very new an quite remarkable. When one is young, there isn't a deep level of practical experience. Making equipment decisions is much more influenced by how it's marketed, one is more likely to go after the latest and greatest, rather than something that on paper appears outdated and way more expensive. It takes time and maturity build a broad photographic experience, especially to accept that the opinions of others might have some merit when they conflict with your own. It took me about 20 years to come back around to Leica a second time. It's still not cutting edge, for the most part, but there are aspects to it that appeal to my older body, as well as where I am now photographically. Even if it's not a logical business decision.



Feb 25, 2013 at 11:48 PM
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