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Archive 2013 · M240 Full Res Samples
  
 
carstenw
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p.13 #1 · M240 Full Res Samples


snowboarder wrote:
Thanks, yeah, I never hide what I think and political correctness is not my strong side
Yes, I did purchase 7 brand new M lenses in a couple of months. I don't regret it, even on a crop
camera they give me excellent results. But I think that also gives me right to be quite demanding
towards Leica. IMO they should share their know how with someone who would be willing
to built a modern, well working MF body accepting M mount lenses. They clearly have no resources
and no experience in digital cameras to build one themselves. But I'm sure, maybe if only
...Show more

Agreed, the M240 seems a lot less interesting to me now than before recent news. I just can't see the large step forward here, other than high-res screen, fast processing and a quiet shutter.

Still, being Leica owners has never given us anything other than being Leica owners. Specifically, we have never had any direct say in their direction, and more importantly, regardless of how many "mistakes" Leica appears to make, every year they seem more successful. They know lots about their core market that we don't. If we are left outside wanting, there are surely enough core customers preordering to fill the books for two-digit months to come.

We aren't Leica's core market.



Feb 25, 2013 at 01:40 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.13 #2 · M240 Full Res Samples


Carsten, from the M9 user point of view, the M has a very long list of improvements: higher resolution new sensor, faster processor, larger higher res LCD, more accurate RF, 2m frames, illuminated frames, no card issues, no cracked sensors, LV, focus peaking, higher frame rate, larger buffer, magnified view, 3 metering modes, more discreet shutter, scratch resistant LCD glass, better high iso ... etc.

All these improvements come at a price that is 500$ lower than the M9. What more does one need?




Feb 25, 2013 at 02:52 PM
carstenw
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p.13 #3 · M240 Full Res Samples


Wait, let's separate the ones I listed from the ones you list. The things I am interested in:

- High-res screen
- Fast processing
- Quiet shutter

On top of that:

- Higher resolution sensor (18MP is enough for me; I would buy an 18-24MP D800 if one existed)
- More accurate RF (Really? Confirmed or marketing? User adjustable? More accurate or more precise?)
- 2m frames (the M8.2 already had this. The M9 was a regression.)
- Illuminated frames (Schnick-schnack. If you can't see the frame lines, there is no light.)
- No card issues (Confirmed? I never had problems with my cards.)
- No cracked sensors (Confirmed? I never had a cracked sensor.)
- Higher framerate (For those M sports photographers or run-and-gun millionaire PJs.)
- Larger buffer (")
- 3 metering modes (I use A for everything I do, sometimes with Auto-ISO.)
- Scratch resistant LCD glass (Was there on M8.2, M9 was a glitch.)
- Better high ISO. <= First point I missed that I care about. True.

- Live View (Listed separately, since this is the source of the current controversy.)

- Magnified view (What is this item, listed separately from live view?)

If the M9-P had been released as the follow-up to the M8, I might have upgraded. The M9 was a budget-M with its paint-only finish and a slew of old hardware. The M is the first real step forward since the M8, IMO, and it doesn't hit enough points for me. The price is also nuts. I sold all my M stuff last year and I have never looked back. Maybe one day something will happen to make me change my mind, but I don't see anything on the radar.

Edited on Feb 25, 2013 at 03:18 PM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:03 PM
joe88
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p.13 #4 · M240 Full Res Samples


Edward, I agree with what you said.

My situation is that I paid over $6500 for a M9 3 years back and it would probably sell for $3k when the M240 is released. To upgrade, I will need to fork out $4k and the question is, are these upgrades worth $4k for me? I'll probably wait to see more reviews and opinions from early adopters before deciding. I'm very interested to see how the B&W files from the M240 look like compared to the M Monochrom, not sharpness wise but more on the B&W tonality when post processed.




Feb 25, 2013 at 03:14 PM
douglasf13
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p.13 #5 · M240 Full Res Samples


Carsten, you would have upgraded to an M9-P, but not the M9, simply because of the finish and LCD glass? I'm the opposite. I couldn't get my head around spending an extra $1k for a slightly different look and sapphire glass. LCD covers are cheap and work fine, since it is a crappy LCD, anyways. Plus, I prefer black, and both camera are black paint.


Feb 25, 2013 at 03:14 PM
douglasf13
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p.13 #6 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
Edward, I agree with what you said.

My situation is that I paid over $6500 for a M9 3 years back and it would probably sell for $3k when the M240 is released. To upgrade, I will need to fork out $4k and the question is, are these upgrades worth $4k for me? I'll probably wait to see more reviews and opinions from early adopters before deciding. I'm very interested to see how the B&W files from the M240 look like compared to the M Monochrom, not sharpness wise but more on the B&W tonality when post processed.



If the M9s start going for under $3K, I'd be tempted to buy a second for backup, rather than trading both for a single M 240.



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:16 PM
joe88
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p.13 #7 · M240 Full Res Samples


carstenw wrote:
The price is also nuts.


I don't disagree.



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:17 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.13 #8 · M240 Full Res Samples


From Erwin Puts review:

"The hidden characteristic is the major jump in engineering quality and accuracy of manufacture. The main tolerances for the performance-relevant components and adjustments are now on micron level which is a significant improvement compared to previous models. This alone is for me the reason to have ordered one. "

It seems the RF mechanism is not only more accurate, it has also been made stronger, more shock and bump resistant.

Also forgot to mention the weather sealing.

Edited on Feb 25, 2013 at 03:21 PM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:19 PM
carstenw
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p.13 #9 · M240 Full Res Samples


douglasf13 wrote:
Carsten, you would have upgraded to an M9-P, but not the M9, simply because of the finish and LCD glass? I'm the opposite. I couldn't get my head around spending an extra $1k for a slightly different look and sapphire glass. LCD covers are cheap and work fine, since it is a crappy LCD, anyways. Plus, I prefer black, and both camera are black paint.


I never wanted a black M (other than maybe an MP), and didn't like the dark silver. I simply didn't want the paint silver finish, and LOVE the traditional chrome finish. Anyway, the low-res screen also put a bit halt on my desire, as did the loud shutter and slow processing. The M9 should have been called the M8 1/2.



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:20 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.13 #10 · M240 Full Res Samples


Finally an intelligent and meaningful discussion

Well, I do agree with Joe and Carsten in that each should decide for himself whether the improvements of the M are worthwhile the upgrade. I myself am still on the fence, since I'm very happy with my M9 and it doesn't have any of the common faults except some Sandisk card dislike.

Whatever improvements are in the typ 240, they will be in the typ 260 and even more.



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:27 PM
 

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edwardkaraa
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p.13 #11 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
Edward, I agree with what you said.

My situation is that I paid over $6500 for a M9 3 years back and it would probably sell for $3k when the M240 is released. To upgrade, I will need to fork out $4k and the question is, are these upgrades worth $4k for me? I'll probably wait to see more reviews and opinions from early adopters before deciding. I'm very interested to see how the B&W files from the M240 look like compared to the M Monochrom, not sharpness wise but more on the B&W tonality when post processed.


Joe, I completely agree with you, but my point of view is that, in 2012 alone, I paid more than 4000$ of film and processing costs. Since I bought the M9, my costs went down to 0.00$. At this rate I can afford a new M every other year.

As for b/w, Ming Thein mentioned he really liked the tonality of the M files conversions. Nothing final yet, but a good sign.



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:31 PM
douglasf13
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p.13 #12 · M240 Full Res Samples


I've been giving the new shutter thing some more thought, and, although I'd certainly welcome it, its importance to me may not be what I once thought, especially since I use the soft and discrete shutter on the M9. In a way, I almost like the loud rewind sound of the M9, because, in the few occasions that someone has heard it, they ask me if the camera is an old film camera. It seems people are more comfortable being photographed by cameras that they think are old and film based, since they don't expect the photos to be immediately uploaded to a million websites, but who knows? I'm probably stretching here.

The M9's LCD is certainly crap, but I challenge myself not to use it, anyways, so I can deal with it.



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:37 PM
joe88
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p.13 #13 · M240 Full Res Samples


carstenw wrote:
We aren't Leica's core market.


So, who are Leica's core market?

For the S2 it seems clear that it is the medium format digital pro / advertising photographers and very well heeled enthusiasts.

For the Leica M, probably someone in the late 30s or early 40s onwards (or even older depending on geographical location), with a comfortable sustainable income to afford the price of admission of getting digital M setup? I think professionals probably account for less that 5% of Leica digital M users but with the M240 it might grow? No disrespect to younger photographers, but how many 20 something year old can afford a $7000 camera ( or even a $4000 used one) without lenses? Probably less than 1% of the photography market? It took me a long time to lust after a Leica before I even owned one and I was well into my 30s before that happened.

For the cheaper Panasonic re-branded Leicas, I would say yuppies who buy into the brand for prestige? I mean why would I buy a rebranded Panasonic LX camera for more money, but on the other hand many people are willing to do that, else those rebranded Leica compact cameras would surely have died a fast death?

So, who are Leica core users?



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:38 PM
joe88
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p.13 #14 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
Joe, I completely agree with you, but my point of view is that, in 2012 alone, I paid more than 4000$ of film and processing costs. Since I bought the M9, my costs went down to 0.00$. At this rate I can afford a new M every other year.

As for b/w, Ming Thein mentioned he really liked the tonality of the M files conversions. Nothing final yet, but a good sign.


Edward, I think in your case, its easy enough to buy a new M240 every other year

Partly one of the reasons I gave up on film as a daily shooter was also the cost. I went on a "film only" vacation in 2011 and came back with nice memories and wonderful pictures, but the cost and time alone to process and scan the negatives on that one week trip could buy me a new digital camera, so I can imagine how you could spend $4k on film in a single year.

Good to know that about the M tonality, but I think Ming Thein can make excellent B&W pictures out of a $500 camera, he really knows his pp, and I am saying this as a compliment. My other though is that if the M240's B&W is really that nice, I might just sell of the Monocrhom and go for a the M240 and keep the M9 as a backup.



Feb 25, 2013 at 03:49 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.13 #15 · M240 Full Res Samples


Douglas, I'm also one of those who don't mind the loud shutter. In fact I'm not into taking sneaking shots and when I shoot people I want them to be fully aware of that. That is why I never understood the need for the discreet shutter noise.



Feb 25, 2013 at 04:33 PM
Bijltje
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p.13 #16 · M240 Full Res Samples


joe88 wrote:
No disrespect to younger photographers, but how many 20 something year old can afford a $7000 camera ( or even a $4000 used one) without lenses? Probably less than 1% of the photography market? It took me a long time to lust after a Leica before I even owned one and I was well into my 30s before that happened.


Well, I bought my m8 when I was 24, 29 when I bought the M9P. I'm certainly not rich (architect, so about no work at all out there), its more were u want to spend money on.

I think the core user of the M series don't have in common having much money and are older trough that is a picture often shown. The old doctor with a leica.

At least the M users I know personally neither are rich or old. Sure they don't all have a M9, but many still use a M6 or M8.

What they all have in common is they all like the rangefinder way of photographing. Looking trough the finder, A simple well build camera with not much extra stuff. Nothing AF, but just having all self in control and just walking around and snapping shots.



Feb 25, 2013 at 05:30 PM
joe88
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p.13 #17 · M240 Full Res Samples


Edward, the quieter shutter is not meant to only sneak up on you but also in other situations such as in a wedding reception when the bride and groom are exchanging vows, an operating theater, a religious event, a corporate event where all eyes are on the speaker, or say classical music concerts or even school events. I've shot in all of the above situations and I can tell you the M9 shutter is still too loud to let proceedings go unnoticed. A quieter shutter would definitely help, at least for me.

Robert, you are fortunate and probably in the 1% of the people I talked about
But jokes aside and I did not mean to offend you or any other forum member, I don't really know the percentages of Leica's customers demographic. I think if one simply wants a digital rangefinder shooting experience, then a used M8 or M9 or even a new M-E would suffice, which goes back to the point of this thread, what are the perceived benefits of getting a M240 or upgrading to one especially for someone who already owns a M9 and are not likely to need most of the features of the M240? One potential group of buyers looking to buy into the M240 are those who wanted to shoot with live view (probably with a movable focus magnification), but as you read Leica's interviews on the M240, etc, they also mentioned that with the additional features such as Live View and Video, they were hoping to sell the cameras to new adopters or even R glass users and unfortunately the solution falls short of meeting those needs.

I still believe the old doctor with a Leica is somewhat true, I have quite a few friends who are doctors, not necessarily older ones, and they mostly shoot Leica M9s because it has the best IQ, not necessarily because of the rangefinder experience. I also know quite a few professional award winning photographers who shoot film M and can't afford a digital M9 for work unless it was part of a sponsorship, because they need at least two bodies, one for backup. Also if you look at how Leica is expanding their stores in upmarket locations next to luxury boutiques, its clear who their primary target market is, the rich and uber rich, and what Rich or Carsten said earlier in this thread is true, Leica is not listening to all of their core customers.



Feb 25, 2013 at 06:24 PM
zhangyue
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p.13 #18 · M240 Full Res Samples


I feel everybody has his own reason to not get M, that always the case with expensive decision. For me, like I said, I need evaluate what it really gives me over the cost. Fast electronics and quieter shutter are two. (note: not only for the sound, but for hand hold stability, I welcome any improvement here. ) High ISO would be a plus but M9ís high ISO and push quality afterward is quite nice. Nothing should be technical at ISO2500 IMO. (D700 is way better at ISO1600, but if under expose it and push afterward, the result will be like a crap.) But unknow CMOS sensor color profile, performance will be more a concern than those shutter delay and LV. And I never expect Leica a sport camera.
I also rethink this LV implementation drama: Let Ďs face it, if there is no time concern (decisive moment), which is shouldnít since we are talking about LV. I hardly feel this will be an issue. For Landscape lens stop down usage: Focus recompose will work, DOF will cover focus error by recompose. It dose require extra step, so, a little time involving. (so does when you trying to scroll around). Not to mention all Leica lens have nice focus DOF scale which is very handy in field.
For macro, at those extreme DOF, LV/EVF itself without zoom is enough for me even for working aperture. I can detect correct focus. I might use LV scroll around for verification if I have, but without it will be fine as well. Plus, the latest Leica lens has no focus shift, so, you can certainly focus WO, and shoot stop down.
For fast glass, WO around 0.7 to 1.5M, EVF will be good enough, at least for me with good eyesight, I canít speak for other people. I use that all the time with fast decision, fast shooting with D700 and Zeiss/Leica fast glass. I canít imagine you canít do it with tripod with time. Again if distance gets longer, focus recompose will work again.
Hi, all I am trying to say is: if you donít like it for whatever reason, you donít like it anyway.

If I donít want buy it for whatever reason, I will not buy it. But I wonít complain it as a defective product.

Joe, I agree with your Leica user base. I am not sure the reason they have leica is because Leica has best IQ,(maybe they thought, as it is most expensive stuff they can find) it has crisp look, and saturated color, but I feel it require a lot time/attention to get decent level than causal rich shooter can afford.(time and expertise)


Edited on Feb 25, 2013 at 09:06 PM · View previous versions



Feb 25, 2013 at 06:42 PM
joe88
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p.13 #19 · M240 Full Res Samples


douglasf13 wrote:
Carsten, you would have upgraded to an M9-P, but not the M9, simply because of the finish and LCD glass? I'm the opposite. I couldn't get my head around spending an extra $1k for a slightly different look and sapphire glass. LCD covers are cheap and work fine, since it is a crappy LCD, anyways. Plus, I prefer black, and both camera are black paint.


Douglas, I'm with you on this. I have a LCD cover and it works fine but have to admit I have replaced the Giotto glass covers more than once. The fact that if you read around forums, quite a few Leica M9 users upgraded to a M9P even though the P does not improve on the camera's performance tell us that for some Leica users, USD$1k is nothing to them just to own a more beautiful camera. The allure of Silver chrome or dotless Leica?

What I don't really agree about Leica today are their stores. Those are costly to run and Leica stores are popping up everywhere in really expensive and upscale locations. I would rather Leica focus on producing the best rangefinder camera and lenses rather than throw away all these marketing cost on their stores? I think if they opened a few less Leica boutiques, they could very well have used the money to invest in more R&D for the M240 to make it an even better camera and this thread didn't have to exist? Which is partly the other reason I think why Leica decided to delist themselves from the stock exchange. Leica is Dr Kauffmann's toy and he wants to do things without interference from other stockholders, that's my guess.



Feb 25, 2013 at 07:30 PM
Gary Clennan
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p.13 #20 · M240 Full Res Samples


Very interesting discussion. I am usually one generation behind so will likely save up and buy a used M9 for (hopefully) a great deal. Saw one posted locally last night for $1400. I emailed right away and got a lengthy reply (with brutal grammar) that I should wire the money as his mom got sick and had to travel back to Nigeria.


Feb 25, 2013 at 07:57 PM
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