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Archive 2013 · M240 Full Res Samples

  
 
naturephoto1
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p.12 #1 · p.12 #1 · M240 Full Res Samples


carstenw wrote:
While I don't disagree with the basic sentiment, I am surprised to hear that Leica's following is decreasing. All sales numbers I have seen appear to indicate the opposite. Do you have any sources?


Carsten,

I was referring to the core R camera users. As you know many have dumped their whole systems, others of course have taken their lenses to other platforms in part or in full.

Rich



Feb 24, 2013 at 12:55 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.12 #2 · p.12 #2 · M240 Full Res Samples


I'm afraid I have to agree with Philippe here. Extra clients are always welcome, and eventually they will get hooked to the M system for its own merits. I think it's another missed opportunity for Leica that will cost them in the long run. However, nothing keeps them from producing a M 250 body in a year or two, after they run out of their S2 processor stock, with proper implementation of LV (higher refresh rate, off center magnified view... etc.)

As for me personally, I am in no hurry to get an M 240. As I did with the M9, I will bide my time, watch how things evolve, see how Leica fixes the inevitable bugs, and when I feel that the product has fully matured, only then will I reach for my wallet.

philber wrote:
Biltje, clearly Leica don't "have to" please everyone. Just as they don't "have to" grow, make money and invest. Though it would help their long-term survival. That the M was never you g to be a favorite for, say, studio work, or macro, is both clear and sensible, because it could have compromised the M for their traditional core of users, which must come first. My argument is different. Banding and blackout are plain bad news, and must be sorted out. The limited LiveView will cost sales which would have been "in the bag" for Leica otherwise. And this would
...Show more



Feb 24, 2013 at 01:11 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.12 #3 · p.12 #3 · M240 Full Res Samples


naturephoto1 wrote:
Carsten,

I was referring to the core R camera users. As you know many have dumped their whole systems, others of course have taken their lenses to other platforms in part or in full.

Rich


Rich, I really have to commend you for your patience. If I was in your situation, I would have sold all my R glass long ago. Let's face it, the R system is discontinued, so Leica is not making any money from it anymore, and consequently has no motivation to provide the R users with any solution. They would rather have you buy into the S system, which is somewhat the R replacement. Hence the half baked not so practical solution with the M 240.



Feb 24, 2013 at 01:16 PM
naturephoto1
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p.12 #4 · p.12 #4 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
Rich, I really have to commend you for your patience. If I was in your situation, I would have sold all my R glass long ago. Let's face it, the R system is discontinued, so Leica is not making any money from it anymore, and consequently has no motivation to provide the R users with any solution. They would rather have you buy into the S system, which is somewhat the R replacement. Hence the half baked not so practical solution with the M 240.


Edward,

Tell me about it. I am not sure if this was half in jest, but Justin Stailery was trying to get me to invest in an S2 system after its introduction and the discontinuation of the R system. I didn't want to spend $40,000 for a camera and 3 or 4 lenses. If Leica did come out with a fully useable R solution in an M body, Leica might be able to cox us into purchasing some of the M wide angle and even normal lenses to use with the camera. They would make money on the sale of the camera plus there would be a good chance of additional lens sales.

I am also still of the opinion that Leica should have offered the smaller version of the S camera system which would also accept the R lenses first. Then, once that was established they should have offered the S system.

Rich



Feb 24, 2013 at 01:25 PM
Bijltje
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p.12 #5 · p.12 #5 · M240 Full Res Samples


naturephoto1 wrote:
No, Leica doesn't have to make a camera that we like or want. But, they are losing more and more of its faithful orphaned R users with false promises and suggestions. They have already lost at least half of the R users and their followers are getting smaller and smaller. For people such as myself, I am running out of time as I am aging to have the luxury of waiting too much longer or possibly even the interest in Leica coming up with a suitable R solution. We may just have to accept another platform for our lenses and
...Show more

I understand its hard to see, but I doubt leica would offer more for the R users into the future as they do with the M230. Don't forget they don't make the lenses any more so beside the camera don't make any money on the system.
If they M240 doesn't fit u right, I certainly would look for another platform. I think I have read before u also use R body's so don't want to change the mount of the lenses.
Isn't it an idea to buy some eos 3's and use them together with a digital eos platform? They costs almost nothing and are really great camera's.

philber wrote:
Biltje, clearly Leica don't "have to" please everyone. Just as they don't "have to" grow, make money and invest. Though it would help their long-term survival. That the M was never you g to be a favorite for, say, studio work, or macro, is both clear and sensible, because it could have compromised the M for their traditional core of users, which must come first. My argument is different. Banding and blackout are plain bad news, and must be sorted out. The limited LiveView will cost sales which would have been "in the bag" for Leica otherwise. And this would
...Show more

I don't want to say a scrollable LV would detract the core users. Not at all.
But I don't think its a cheap and quick solution to not give scrollable LV. I know leica keeps close contact to some of their users (for example with magnum) and if this is what they asked, this is wat they offer.

Its off course kinda sad this means not everyone is happy, but this is what there "backup" gave them and suits most of them.


Bobu wrote:
Yes, but the M could be a really great lightweight and small landscape system with some minor changes (without sacrificing the performance for street shooters).
But sadly Leica seems to have no interest in fulfilling the requirements of landscape photographers. Although I really love the M lenses I will change back to DSLR.

Boris


I can see why u are not happy with the m240, but honestly if I see what u can do with the M9 without LV at all. I don't really get why U would leave the system because of a non scrollable LV.
The M240 is already a big step forward compared to the M9 for landscape work, it gives close framing, the opportunity to use grad filters, it gives faster operation and a bigger screen. If the M9 gave such good results, why would a better M240 not be good enough?
But off course its totally your choice and opinion.



Feb 24, 2013 at 03:04 PM
snowboarder
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p.12 #6 · p.12 #6 · M240 Full Res Samples


edwardkaraa wrote:
I feel he's on the brink of a nervous breakdown. Best therapy is not to visit this thread until his condition stabilizes.



Can someone please tell me who gave this guy any rights to go on a personal attack like that?
His last few posts are a nasty personal thing against me...




Feb 24, 2013 at 03:14 PM
alundeb
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p.12 #7 · p.12 #7 · M240 Full Res Samples


snowboarder wrote:
Can someone please tell me who gave this guy any rights to go on a personal attack like that?
His last few posts are a nasty personal thing against me...



It seems to be his style to hand out "issue" tags from time to time. I was lucky to be only a "smartass"
But we get along.
Don't worry, we think you are ok



Feb 24, 2013 at 03:21 PM
carstenw
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p.12 #8 · p.12 #8 · M240 Full Res Samples


Andrew, he is just poking fun at you. I have to give it to you though: you are one of the most persistently negative posters around here; I understand where Edward is coming from.


Feb 24, 2013 at 03:47 PM
rscheffler
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p.12 #9 · p.12 #9 · M240 Full Res Samples


I would classify Andrew as extremely critical and difficult to satisfy due to demanding expectations. He says it as he sees it. Naturally this won't agree with everyone.

And not all of his posts have been negative about Leica... you just have to check out what he's said and done with his Leica lenses, such his Oregon trip. Compare that to his November 2011 trip where he used a mixed bag of Z*, C/Y and R lenses. In about half a year he fully invested in Leica M lenses. Obviously that says something positive.



Feb 24, 2013 at 04:06 PM
mortyb
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p.12 #10 · p.12 #10 · M240 Full Res Samples


He he. I for one like people who say things as they are, like Andrew.


Feb 24, 2013 at 04:13 PM
Bobu
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p.12 #11 · p.12 #11 · M240 Full Res Samples


Bijltje wrote:
I can see why u are not happy with the m240, but honestly if I see what u can do with the M9 without LV at all. I don't really get why U would leave the system because of a non scrollable LV.
The M240 is already a big step forward compared to the M9 for landscape work, it gives close framing, the opportunity to use grad filters, it gives faster operation and a bigger screen. If the M9 gave such good results, why would a better M240 not be good enough?
But off course its totally your choice and opinion.
...Show more

I can get good and sometimes great results out of my M9, but some things are much more complicated compared to a DSLR. For example: using polfilters, unsing GNDs, perfect focus escpecially with longer lenses, focus from a tripod outside the center, perfect framing (I often had to repeat a shot many times before the framing was perfect).

I was willing to accept the M9 with its restrictions as an intermediate solution, because of its small size and low weight and also because I was sure that there will be a liveview camera from Leica perfectly suitable for landscape photography in the near future.

The M240 adresses some of my points, maybe even many of them. But it is clearly not a perfect camera for landscape photography (mainly due to the liveview restrictions, but also due to banding and less DR than the top DSLRs).

Just staying with the M9 is no option for me, for the reasons listed above. And switching from 2 M9 to 2 new M240 would cost me about 6000€ and I'm not willing to pay 6000€ for a camera which has again some serious restrictions (for my type of photography).

Boris



Feb 24, 2013 at 04:40 PM
snowboarder
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p.12 #12 · p.12 #12 · M240 Full Res Samples


rscheffler wrote:
I would classify Andrew as extremely critical and difficult to satisfy due to demanding expectations. He says it as he sees it. Naturally this won't agree with everyone.

And not all of his posts have been negative about Leica... you just have to check out what he's said and done with his Leica lenses, such his Oregon trip. Compare that to his November 2011 trip where he used a mixed bag of Z*, C/Y and R lenses. In about half a year he fully invested in Leica M lenses. Obviously that says something positive.



Thanks, yeah, I never hide what I think and political correctness is not my strong side
Yes, I did purchase 7 brand new M lenses in a couple of months. I don't regret it, even on a crop
camera they give me excellent results. But I think that also gives me right to be quite demanding
towards Leica. IMO they should share their know how with someone who would be willing
to built a modern, well working MF body accepting M mount lenses. They clearly have no resources
and no experience in digital cameras to build one themselves. But I'm sure, maybe if only for "the glory",
Sony or Fuji would be all over a body "made with Leica" or something like that. Everyone wins.
If not there is only hope a FF Nex will be as good as everyone is hoping for...
To hope Leica will bring a camera I want, seems to be a lost case.








Feb 24, 2013 at 05:49 PM
edwardkaraa
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p.12 #13 · p.12 #13 · M240 Full Res Samples


snowboarder wrote:
Can someone please tell me who gave this guy any rights to go on a personal attack like that?
His last few posts are a nasty personal thing against me...



I'm sorry but did you read your last post? You did seem to have a nervous breakdown, so I couldn't resist. Sorry if I offended you, it was done with no malicious intentions.



Feb 24, 2013 at 10:02 PM
douglasf13
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p.12 #14 · p.12 #14 · M240 Full Res Samples


snowboarder wrote:
Thanks, yeah, I never hide what I think and political correctness is not my strong side
Yes, I did purchase 7 brand new M lenses in a couple of months. I don't regret it, even on a crop
camera they give me excellent results. But I think that also gives me right to be quite demanding
towards Leica. IMO they should share their know how with someone who would be willing
to built a modern, well working MF body accepting M mount lenses. They clearly have no resources
and no experience in digital cameras to build one themselves. But I'm sure, maybe if only
...Show more

I'm not sure that buying a bunch of lenses for a camera that has yet to exist makes a ton of sense. The M has always been about rangefinder photography, and that is apparently still the focus going forward, which should be expected, IMO. I wouldn't have been all that surprised if the new M used an updated CCD without liveview, so at least it's close to what you were hoping for.

I was secretly hoping the new M would be MORE simple, with a thinner body and no LCD at all, and with a lot of the mechanical updates that the M240 has, but I obviously didn't get what I wanted, either. No biggie.



Feb 25, 2013 at 01:36 AM
thrice
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p.12 #15 · p.12 #15 · M240 Full Res Samples


For me, unless shooting a telephoto lens I don't even focus through the viewfinder on my M (for tipod-bound landscape work).

I will usually scale focus to get the important parts of the scene well within the acceptable plane of focus.

On the new M I admit, I will probably use live view to compose tricky scenes on a tripod. Other than that it'll be pretty much business as usual as far as shooting technique. I guess I'm just used to being able to trust my equipment.



Feb 25, 2013 at 05:07 AM
Bijltje
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p.12 #16 · p.12 #16 · M240 Full Res Samples


Bobu wrote:
I can get good and sometimes great results out of my M9, but some things are much more complicated compared to a DSLR. For example: using polfilters, unsing GNDs, perfect focus escpecially with longer lenses, focus from a tripod outside the center, perfect framing (I often had to repeat a shot many times before the framing was perfect).

I was willing to accept the M9 with its restrictions as an intermediate solution, because of its small size and low weight and also because I was sure that there will be a liveview camera from Leica perfectly suitable for landscape photography in
...Show more

I agree on your arguments, especially the cash part. But don't forget the pro's of the M9 are there also for the M240. Its still a lighter, smaller full frame system with great lenses like the 21/3.4 or 50/2 apo.

If U have so much money in a system (two M9's, lots of M lenses), isn't a Alpa camera an option over a dslr?
I think a used good digi back (with scrollable LV, and stunning picture quality) can be found for about the price of the two M9's, and the camera's itself (and lenses) aren't that expensive. Cheaper backs are out there also.

Gives u full tilt/ shift options with most lenses, great lenses itself and stunning picture quality in a relative compact body.
With the 12 FPS U can even use SLR lenses like the zeiss 21/2.8 or 15/2.8 to safe money.

I used such a camera shortly for architecture and it really is all I could dream of for a landscape/ architecture camera.



Feb 25, 2013 at 05:33 AM
thrice
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p.12 #17 · p.12 #17 · M240 Full Res Samples


But Robert, you can't take good landscape photos without live-view, an IQ back and the comparable Leaf systems are exceedingly expensive.

That, and *gasp* the IQ backs don't allow you to scroll while magnifying in live-view and also only have ONE brightness!? So you basically have to use ND filters to focus wide open in bright light and you can't even use the live-view in the dark. This, on a $30,000 product! How dare they, they'll never sell it to discerning landscape shooters.



Feb 25, 2013 at 06:22 AM
Bijltje
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p.12 #18 · p.12 #18 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
But Robert, you can't take good landscape photos without live-view, an IQ back and the comparable Leaf systems are exceedingly expensive.

That, and *gasp* the IQ backs don't allow you to scroll while magnifying in live-view and also only have ONE brightness!? So you basically have to use ND filters to focus wide open in bright light and you can't even use the live-view in the dark. This, on a $30,000 product! How dare they, they'll never sell it to discerning landscape shooters.




20.000 actually for the IQ 140, little more than 2x the M240. And they can be found used so it would take the price down quite a bit.

But never used the IQ backs myself, didn't knew it was that bad with the LV and the screen....

[edit] 20.000 euro that is... little more than 3x the m240. Nevermind



Feb 25, 2013 at 07:53 AM
joakim
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p.12 #19 · p.12 #19 · M240 Full Res Samples


thrice wrote:
For me, unless shooting a telephoto lens I don't even focus through the viewfinder on my M (for tipod-bound landscape work).

I will usually scale focus to get the important parts of the scene well within the acceptable plane of focus.

On the new M I admit, I will probably use live view to compose tricky scenes on a tripod. Other than that it'll be pretty much business as usual as far as shooting technique. I guess I'm just used to being able to trust my equipment.


I have to admit I've gotten quite spoiled when using live view on my 5D Mrk II for checking corner sharpness etc but on the other hand I have managed to pull of some good tripod-based photos with the M9 and I did manage to shot landscape before I got a camera with live-view so if I take the M route I guess it is back to basics and as you say to trust my equipment.

One thing I am a little concerned about is when using shallow DoF at close/mid distance to isolate the subject, here live view has been really helpful when checking the sharpness of the motive from front to back. Could focus peaking help in this situation, how accurate will it be?



Feb 25, 2013 at 08:11 AM
carstenw
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p.12 #20 · p.12 #20 · M240 Full Res Samples


rscheffler wrote:
I would classify Andrew as extremely critical and difficult to satisfy due to demanding expectations. He says it as he sees it. Naturally this won't agree with everyone.

And not all of his posts have been negative about Leica... you just have to check out what he's said and done with his Leica lenses, such his Oregon trip. Compare that to his November 2011 trip where he used a mixed bag of Z*, C/Y and R lenses. In about half a year he fully invested in Leica M lenses. Obviously that says something positive.


Did you just reach back 8 months to find a positive post?



Feb 25, 2013 at 08:36 AM
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