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Archive 2013 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?
  
 
Karel Geertsem
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


Your advice is needed, since life is a compromise.

I own 2 cameras: a Canon S95 and a Canon 5D MK II, the latter with a few Zeiss lenses and a Zacuto Z-Finder for focusing (I don't like focusing trough the viewfinder, even with the EG-S screen).

I am always pleasantly surprised when viewing the results from the S95, but of course only base ISO 80 will do. Then, when looking at files from the 5D2 I wish I had brought that camera instead. However, it is no fun carrying it and one or more Zeiss lenses over the mountains and trough cities.
Having said that you already guess that I'm no fan either of carrying a tripod over longer distances, so proper IQ at higher ISO's and/or image stabilization is very welcome. A one lens solution sounds a bit like a zoom, however I would miss large openings (2.8 or better).

My options seem to be:
- Keep on using the 5D2, but get the Canon 40mm pancake. I would like it a little bit wider, but this is probably the most economical, smallest and lightest solution (200 Euro).
- Get something like the new Canon 28 or 35 IS. Would like the IS but these lenses are expensive (670-760 Euro's).... nearly in the price range of:

- A Nex-6 with kit lens. Like the EVF and the tilt screen. Focus peeking would be useful when adding other MF lenses. However, some people complain about the new 16-50 lens: too soft and only corrected well with in camera software in JPGs. Now I happen to like RAW a lot...
Weird feeling: I might like the Nex-6 a little too much, using the 5D2 plus Zeisses not enough any more ...

So, what would your advice be: (approaching 5D2 sensor quality,) Zeiss look, with the least amount of weight and bulk whilst spending no more than 1.000 Euro.

Sigma Merril doesn't seem to cut it because low-ISO only and no support in Lightroom, I don't think that something like a Sony RX100 will be a substantial improvement over the S95 whilst approaching the price of a Nex-6L (600 versus 850 Euro's).
Ridiculously cheap option: Nex-5N with old 18-55, except nobody likes the lens, no EVF (439 Euro's)

Thank you for your thoughts.




Jan 28, 2013 at 02:14 PM
alundeb
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


I would take the 5N, since the 6 is heavier and offers no extra in IQ, Of course a VF is nice, but that wasn't top priority? I would then spend more weight and $ on lenses.



Jan 28, 2013 at 02:21 PM
Phillip Reeve
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


do you know this artice by Jacob?

For 1000€ you could get
  • 5n with 18-55 it is pretty bad @18mm but stopped down @24mm not much worse than the Zeiss 24/1.8 440€ spent
  • Voigtländer 15/4.5 +Adapter 740€ spent
  • Carl Zeiss Biogon 28/2.8 for Contax G and a cheap Adapter 1000€ spent
  • Minolta MD 50/1.4 or Canon nFD 50/1.4 1070€ spent.

    some imagethreads

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1156080/0

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1144124/0

    http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1148534/0


  • Jan 28, 2013 at 02:36 PM
    alwang
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    p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    If you like the focal length of the Canon 40 on the 5Dmk2, and you like the Zeiss look, I'd certainly recommend getting a NEX 5N plus the Contax G 28. For stopped-down landscape shots, I'm pretty sure it will match the IQ of your 5Dmk2+40mm, and in certain ways the raw files will exceed those you get from the Canon. The Contax G lenses do have a somewhat awkward manual focus, but for slower-paced shooting, it's not really an issue.


    Jan 28, 2013 at 02:53 PM
    jonrock
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    p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    I would probably go with a Nex 5N with a Sigma 19 and 30 f2.8 along with the Sony 50mm f1.8 if you need native AF lenses with better quality than 18-55 kit lens.

    Though, I would be careful in buying a Sony NEX camera. The manual focus experience is much more enjoyable on it than on a standard DSLR due to focus peaking and magnification focus aids (for me magnification is even more helpful on a touchscreen NEX). I wouldn't be surprised if you tried putting on your Zeiss lenses on a Sony NEX via adapters.

    Edited on Jan 28, 2013 at 03:00 PM · View previous versions



    Jan 28, 2013 at 02:58 PM
    Jacob D
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    p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    Karel,

    This is a somewhat aging blog post I made on the subject; it's mostly specific to the 5N and my thoughts have not changed about that camera - a very good fit in my opinion.

    You said nobody likes the 18-55 kit lens. I'm not sure that's true, it's actually a quite decent lens and it shines between 24 and 30mm, still being pretty good from 18mm and up to 35mm. After that it starts to go downhill, but as kit lenses go, it's one of the better ones that I'm aware of.

    In my opinion, the 5N is more or less equal to the 5D (classic) in terms of overall IQ. I think it's fair to say it approaches the quality of the 5D2, falling a little short in terms of color reproduction and ISO performance. This is of course comparing both cameras with 'good' lenses. If you only plan to use a kit lens... I'm not sure I'd recommend the NEX at all. Probably an RX100 in that case.

    If you decided on maybe a 2 lens kit you have options...
    - Sigma 19/2.8 + Sigma 30/2.8 (274g, very inexpensive)
    - Sony 10-18 + 50/1.8 (427g, a little over budget)
    - Zeiss 18/4 + 35/2.8 (550g, very compact, way over budget)
    - Voigtlander 15/4.5 + 35/2.5 (290g, very compact, within budget)

    The Voigt lenses have some similarities to Zeiss in terms of rendering, much closer than the Sony or Sigma will get you anyway.

    Here is a reference you may find useful:
    Prime Lenses by Weight & Focal Length



    Jan 28, 2013 at 03:00 PM
    Vern Dewit
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    p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    Hi,

    I'm a mountain climber / hiker / skier and have been asking these questions for the past 10 years! I've also written an article on it but here's the gist (and believe me, I've tried ALL the small camera systems including NEX, m43, Ricoh, Pentax Q etc, except for Nikon's 1 system);

    Here are the three top choices for small camera systems for climbers / hikers (IMHO of course! ) with the top three criteria being;

    1. Size / Weight
    2. Image quality
    3. Versatility (i.e. how many different lenses?)

    1. Olympus / Panasonic m43 system. I know a lot of NEX folks get upset but I've tried NEX 3 times and the lack of lenses is a huge issue. Also the lenses that are of high quality and need to cover the APS-C sensor are bigger and heavier than the m43 counter part. m43 is such a complete system now and there's so many choices for bodies / good lenses it just makes sense. It's also cheap. (Consider an Olympus E-PM2 + 12mm, 17mm, 45mm and 75mm - all gorgeous metal lenses at or under f/2!). Because of the better lenses, the m43 wins the IQ contest. I've proven this to myself with many large prints.

    2. NEX. Nex cameras / sensors are brilliant. Maybe not quite as fast AF as the new m43 but closer. The issue with NEX is versatility and lack of quality lenses (AF). This is a giant problem for NEX right now. I have to laugh at the idea of a FF Nex with a lens like the 18-55mm kit on it! The Zeiss 24mm f/1.8 is excellent but lonely. With a lineup of primes like the m43 system, the NEX would be much heavier and larger but at least the sensor would get a work out.

    3. Sony RX100. How can you beat this little gem? Maybe with 24mm at the wide end and a more advanced 1" sensor or a 28-200mm lens but honestly, this little camera is unbelievable for climbers. With a fast 1.8 lens and plenty DOF due to the small sensor, you can easily carry it and take photos while climbing / skiing where normally the camera would be banging off rocks or hidden in your pack. This one wins hands down in the size / weight category and in good light gives the other systems a run in the IQ department too!

    YMMV of course.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 03:00 PM
    Jacob D
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    p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    ^^ Edit, you guys are too fast I grabbed a cup of coffee then started typing before I saw the above posts.

    Also wanted to add that I just spent the weekend backpacking with a friend of mine who just purchased a NEX6. It is slightly larger than the 5N. While I did like the larger grip, I'm not sure if it really offers other advantages. The view finder was not easy for me to use since I wear glasses. I have an easier time using the LCD screen turned up to max brightness. Without glasses I would probably prefer the EVF.

    One last edit, to counter Vern's point about lenses for NEX... I think that is a dated argument at this point. There are quite a few quality lenses for NEX now, a year or two ago it might have been a 'giant problem'... but not so much today, and by the end of the year I don't think this will be a relevant topic for NEX. Besides that, as long as the system has the lenses that you need, it's somewhat irrelevant how many other lenses exist. When I realized the truth in that, I finally decided to sell (at least, sold some of so far) my 5D and associated lenses to use the 5N exclusively.

    (by the way, Vern, beautiful images on your article, nice write up).



    Jan 28, 2013 at 03:01 PM
    Karel Geertsem
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    p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    You guys are amazing! Thanks a lot; I did not know any of those links. I ordered a 5N, but ... a BIG but: they seem to run out really fast. My favorite store around the corner doesn't have them any more, only as a 2-lens kit with the tele-zoom (200 Euros more). I ordered it from another place where it isn't in stock any more either; we will see. A third alternative also only has the 2-lens kit.

    Should I get one, I will look into the lenses you have mentioned.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 03:31 PM
    frezeiss
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    p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    5N is lovely but I prefer the sharpness I'm getting from my Nex 3 or Fuji XE-1, considerably so.


    Jan 28, 2013 at 04:24 PM
     

    Search in Used Dept. 



    ytwong
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    p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    M43 lens is overall better than NEX.. but NEX sensor is better than M43...

    The situation on NEX side is slowly improving. The 24 1.8 is reasonably good (but overpriced with poor build quality, esp the hood), the 30 1.8 is very good, the 50 1.8 is quite good. The 10-18 is reported to be good as well. Sigma 19mm and 30mm are very good, and cheap too. I wouldn't suggest CZ 28 for landscape use...

    NEX-6 kit lens is not that bad when stopped down. It has VERY strong distortion. So far it seems sharp when stopped down (focus on infinity) after correction...it doesn't seems so good when shooting close and flat objects.

    The good news is you get a free (not so wide) fisheye (ACR don't have a profile for 16-50 yet).

    The long lens option is weak... the 55-210 is just disappointing... I sent mine to Sony service, they said it was within specification ... and I refused to take it and they finally replaced it with another but that one is just ok when well stopped down. The Nikon 75-150 3.5 is way better.

    btw, the pancake lens isn't so good for NEX-7 since the strong distortion is only corrected AFTER the shot is taken...so you are composing wide-angle images with a fisheye view... same might applies to NEX-5N/5.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 04:46 PM
    alwang
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    p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    frezeiss wrote:
    5N is lovely but I prefer the sharpness I'm getting from my Nex 3 or Fuji XE-1, considerably so.


    I'd be curious to hear more about this: I don't know of anyone who is getting sharper results from a NEX-C3 or NEX-F3 vs. a NEX-5N. As far as I know, the sensors are very, very similar.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 05:05 PM
    frezeiss
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    p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    Alwang, its the old Nex-3 14 MP camera, not the similar C3 or F3. I find sony's 16 MP sensor is quite mushy when zoomed at 100% (with quality lenses).


    Jan 28, 2013 at 05:12 PM
    LightShow
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    p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    The 5N, 5R with the Voigtlander 15, & Sigma 19 & 30, or E 10-18
    And the coming E-mount Zeiss 12mm with AF will be very popular I think.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 05:13 PM
    douglasf13
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    p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    Jacob D wrote:
    One last edit, to counter Vern's point about lenses for NEX... I think that is a dated argument at this point. There are quite a few quality lenses for NEX now, a year or two ago it might have been a 'giant problem'... but not so much today, and by the end of the year I don't think this will be a relevant topic for NEX. Besides that, as long as the system has the lenses that you need, it's somewhat irrelevant how many other lenses exist. When I realized the truth in that, I finally decided to sell
    ...Show more


    Agreed. The Sony 10-18, 24, 35, 50 and Sigma 19 and 30 are all good performers. Even the Sony 16 is pretty good, considering the size and price. I'd imagine that the new 30/2.8 pancake will be fine, too.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 05:30 PM
    Phillip Reeve
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    p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    ytwong wrote:
    Sigma 19mm and 30mm are very good, and cheap too. I wouldn't suggest CZ 28 for landscape use...

    The good news is you get a free (not so wide) fisheye (ACR don't have a profile for 16-50 yet).

    The Carl Zeiss Biogon 2.8/28 for Contax G (or G28) doesn't show perfect corners, that's true and the sigma will show better corners most probably, i suggested it anyways because Zeiss look was asked for.
    I send my sigma back because i liked colors and contrast from the G28 much more.

    Here is a full resolution (after the click) image taken with it



    Jan 28, 2013 at 05:31 PM
    Vern Dewit
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    p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    douglasf13 wrote:
    Agreed. The Sony 10-18, 24, 35, 50 and Sigma 19 and 30 are all good performers. Even the Sony 16 is pretty good, considering the size and price. I'd imagine that the new 30/2.8 pancake will be fine, too.


    I owned the 10-18 and combined with the NEX-7 was very disappointed (but maybe I had a bad copy). I've consistantly been diappointed with the NEX system (mostly by the lenses - and I've own all of the above except for the Sigma 30...) but maybe I've just had bad luck.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 06:38 PM
    Vern Dewit
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    p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    LightShow wrote:
    The 5N, 5R with the Voigtlander 15, & Sigma 19 & 30, or E 10-18
    And the coming E-mount Zeiss 12mm with AF will be very popular I think.


    Agreed on that 12mm! I have decided to use the m43 system until there are at least 3 nice zeiss primes available on the NEX...



    Jan 28, 2013 at 06:39 PM
    Vern Dewit
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    p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    Jacob D wrote:
    ...You said nobody likes the 18-55 kit lens. I'm not sure that's true, it's actually a quite decent lens and it shines between 24 and 30mm, still being pretty good from 18mm and up to 35mm. After that it starts to go downhill, but as kit lenses go, it's one of the better ones that I'm aware of...


    Hmmm. Based on very extensive experience with at least 3 copies of the kit lens I have to say that for large prints I disagree with you. I've just spent 2 weeks trying to PP for large prints from my Mount Assiniboine climb last fall. I took my NEX-7 rather than the RX100 due to IQ issues at large sizes with the RX100 on my Mount Fryatt climbing trip a few week previous.

    PP'ing the images I was quite disappointed by all the CA and lack of sharpness even stopped down to f/8 and f/11. I think the RX100 with a filter would have matched the NEX-7 + kit lens in my case.

    I don't mean to sound so anti-NEX because I do love the system. I've just been disappointed going through all my pics from a few big trips last year. The m43 system with small primes would have done much better (for me).



    Jan 28, 2013 at 06:44 PM
    Jacob D
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    p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · Hiking: IQ, weight, size = NEX6+kitlens?


    Vern,

    I don't think it's fair to compare a zoom lens against a prime lens, especially the kit zoom lens. I didn't mean to infer that if it was taken that way. Maybe I should have just been less verbose and stuck with:

    "as kit lenses go, it's one of the better ones I'm aware of".

    That was my point, with the second point being:
    "If you only plan to use a kit lens... I'm not sure I'd recommend the NEX at all. Probably an RX100 in that case."


    So... to the original poster's question - I think it may be a lot to ask for the quality of 5d2 + Zeiss primes for 1000 euro. Frankly, that 'aint gonna happen!... but you may be able to get acceptably close with some of the options that I and others listed above.


    As to your point (Vern) about the large prints; I don't know what qualifies as a large print for you, but I can certainly imagine that the kit lens just wouldn't be good enough at some point. Moreso with the NEX7 which is going to require better glass and perfect technique, and especially depending what focal lengths you're working at. Would you mind posting a photo or two that gave you problems with some 100% crops? (might be better to start a new thread). Also, I think it's been established that Sony mucked up the sensor on the 7 for wide angle lenses, even the 16/2.8 and 10-18/4... the firmware updates aren't exactly a solution.



    Jan 28, 2013 at 07:03 PM
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