Home · Register · Search · View Winners · Software · Hosting · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       end
  

Archive 2013 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?
  
 
mfletch
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


roman.johnston wrote:
I can hint though about one reason...most people buyint eh D3200, or D5200, or D7000 are at the amateur level of photogaphy and print at Wallmart size and share on the web only....so the topic often dosnt come up as it is not seen.

Roman


I read through this thread. This is basically the thought I was planning to add and found it on the last line of the thread thusfar.

D800/800E owners have spent ~$3000 on their new Nikon and (rightfully)expect it's 36mp to deliver image quality they've never achieved before. They're much more critical of it's performance, than the average D5100/3200/7000 owner. There was, in fact, a lot of chatter about the D7000 requiring careful technique. That has kinda been forgotten in the last 2 years, so it's not a new issue.



Jan 21, 2013 at 06:38 PM
trenchmonkey
Online
• • • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


There was, in fact, a lot of chatter about the D7000 requiring careful technique. That has kinda been forgotten in the last 2 years, so it's not a new issue.
Indeed, what hasn't changed however...is the fact resulting IQ is well rewarded by good technique and great glass.
My transition to high MP D800 goodness was effortless. Thank you, D7K



Jan 21, 2013 at 06:53 PM
alundeb
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


My personal experience with tripod based photography:

1) The guidelines in the Nikon document are basic rules that I learned to apply before I got the D800E. They gave me sharper images then, and they will now.

2) It is not particularly difficult to get images extremely sharp even when pixel peeping 100%, when using a good lens like the C/Y 35-70.

3) With lenses of lower quality I get sharper images (on the image scale, not pixel scale) with the D800E than with a lower pixel density camera.



Jan 21, 2013 at 06:56 PM
binary visions
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


Ahh, so the FOV issue was mentioned a couple times and that's absolutely something I overlooked. That, for a given FOV, you end up with more pixels on the D800 (instead of simply measuring absolute pixel density at the sensor).

That makes sense, and validates what DPReview and Thom were saying - I was having trouble chalking it up to, as BenV put it, internet echos, since sites like DPReview and ByThom are usually the creators of those echos, not the listeners.



Jan 21, 2013 at 07:08 PM
afm901
Offline
• •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


moonpeep touched on this a bit but it needs to be taken a step further:

If you take a photo with a D700 and a D800E using the same exact lens, camera position, shutter speed, aperture, etc., and you print the photo at the same size or display the photo on a computer screen at the same size, the D800E does not need better technique to get the same result as the D700.

It's when you take advantage of the extra resolution the D800E offers that you might need the improved technique.

Scott



Jan 21, 2013 at 07:30 PM
binary visions
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


Hey Scott -

Of course for any given full frame comparison, you're right. What I was trying to figure out is if you take a D800 image, and crop it to 1.5x, you get a very similar pixel density to any of the high end crop cameras. So I was trying to determine why this same pixel density was suddenly so noteworthy on the D800.

The answer, of course, is if you keep the same FOV (i.e. you're not cropping the D800 image to match the DX camera, you're moving closer or using a longer lens), you do, in fact, get more pixels on your subject... hence the need for increased care.



Jan 21, 2013 at 07:50 PM
DontShoot
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


nah.. the same techniques I used to get sharp images then, are also the same techniques I use to get sharp images today with the high MP bodies. Sloppy technique is sloppy technique, regardless of the MP count.




Jan 21, 2013 at 09:30 PM
AndrewKandel
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


Coming from a D700, which is super forgiving, I did have to adjust my technique when shooting with long lenses on my D800. Especially with teleconverters attached. I'm still trying to come to terms with what is acceptable sharpness on the D800. At 100% magnification I think I'm perhaps being too rigid in tossing out photos which probably would look fine at print sizes 16 inches and smaller on the wide side.


Jan 22, 2013 at 01:04 AM
Derek Weston
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


afm901 wrote:
moonpeep touched on this a bit but it needs to be taken a step further:

If you take a photo with a D700 and a D800E using the same exact lens, camera position, shutter speed, aperture, etc., and you print the photo at the same size or display the photo on a computer screen at the same size, the D800E does not need better technique to get the same result as the D700.

It's when you take advantage of the extra resolution the D800E offers that you might need the improved technique.

Scott


Exactly.

What I realized is this: I've got everything any smaller res camera would offer, but I have the ability to go much larger if I desire.

All the d800 points out is this:

The higher the MP, the more demanding the technique. (but this is true from 12mp to 16 to 24mp all the same -- 36 isn't magic)

When MP is constant... d800 is just like any other camera of lesser MP.

Given all this... you can look at the 36mp with d800 as an advantage. Get what 24, 16, 12mp etc... give you or take 36mp when you can handle it.

At any rate... shoot away.



Jan 22, 2013 at 01:19 AM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



Derek Weston
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


AndrewKandel wrote:
Coming from a D700, which is super forgiving, I did have to adjust my technique when shooting with long lenses on my D800. Especially with teleconverters attached. I'm still trying to come to terms with what is acceptable sharpness on the D800. At 100% magnification I think I'm perhaps being too rigid in tossing out photos which probably would look fine at print sizes 16 inches and smaller on the wide side.


Yes, down-sample and it will look much better.

Your d700 would look the same if it were 36mp

It's you, not the camera... wink wink



Jan 22, 2013 at 01:21 AM
Mark_L
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


DontShoot wrote:
nah.. the same techniques I used to get sharp images then, are also the same techniques I use to get sharp images today with the high MP bodies. Sloppy technique is sloppy technique, regardless of the MP count.


This is pretty much what I found going from D700 to D800E, I don't and haven't needed to shoot any differently.



Jan 22, 2013 at 05:36 PM
BenV
Offline
• • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


DontShoot wrote:
nah.. the same techniques I used to get sharp images then, are also the same techniques I use to get sharp images today with the high MP bodies. Sloppy technique is sloppy technique, regardless of the MP count.



Exactly. People over think and discuss it too much. As I stated before the only reason I shoot differently is so I don't have to process extra files that are abnormally large.



Jan 22, 2013 at 05:42 PM
Lance B
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


If you want ultimate sharpness with every shot, then yes you may need to change your technique to get the very best every time. However, by using the very same techniques used on a D700 and using them on the D800 your images won't look any worse than what you achieved from a D700. The only reason you may see motion blur with the D800 is simply because the extra resolution when you pixel peep at 100% affords the possibly to show the blur, but this is masked by the lower resolution of the D700, ie the D700 will look "fuzzy" due to less resolution whereas the D800 may look fuzzier due to the extra resolution recording the motion blur.

The fact is, viewed at the same size and viewing distance, which is what most of us will do, there can be no difference in the D700 and the D800 image resolution when the same techniques are used. However, the D800 has the ability to provide a much sharper image than the D700 even if you do not use "better" techniques and is guaranteed to give better resolution results if better techniques are used.

Having taken 15,000 images with my D800 and now a further 1,000 with my new D800E, all I can say is that using the same techniques as I did with my D700, my D800/E shots are at least as good, and more often than not, better than the D700 images with regards to resolution. However, if I ramp up the 1/focal length guide to 1/focal x 2 or x 4, I do get a higher rate of images where the resolution advantage can be be assured over the D700.

The point is, do not be put off by the extra resolution of the D800 as it can't make your image look worse, thats just a fallacy, but it has the ability, in most instances, to show the extra resolution advantage.



Jan 23, 2013 at 01:00 AM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


binary visions wrote:
You guys are missing the point

Let's be blunt: yes, the higher pixel density, the more flaws will be exposed in your images.

Let's assume that is true.

The D800 does not have higher pixel density than the D7000 or D5100, and only marginally higher density than crop cameras that have been available for several years.

Why, then, are people claiming the D800 requires special handling, when these other cameras do not have the same claims?



Because with the DX bodies it's easier to blame the format as being inferior. In the past, some of us have indeed pointed out the very fact for high MP DX cameras, you need better technique to get the most out of them.

As for the claim of needing more exacting technique, that is true only if you want to extract the most out of the higher resolution ... but in practical terms, that extra resolution only helps if you:

1) Crop heavily
2) Print very large and expect to view it from a close distance
3) Pixel peep
4) Are viewing the right kind of image, at a large enough size where aquity makes a difference. The "right kind of image" implies one where there is lots of detail that makes a difference to the composition (a good landscape shot for instance). But, I think we get too hung up on this at times, since many of the greatest painters did just the opposite ... and they were the "photographers" of thier day.


Edited on Jan 23, 2013 at 01:34 PM · View previous versions



Jan 23, 2013 at 01:30 PM
Andre Labonte
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


Lance B wrote:
If you want ultimate sharpness with every shot, then yes you may need to change your technique to get the very best every time. However, by using the very same techniques used on a D700 and using them on the D800 your images won't look any worse than what you achieved from a D700. The only reason you may see motion blur with the D800 is simply because the extra resolution when you pixel peep at 100% affords the possibly to show the blur, but this is masked by the lower resolution of the D700, ie the D700 will
...Show more


Very very well said. You hit the nail on the head!



Jan 23, 2013 at 01:33 PM
Lance B
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


Andre Labonte wrote:
Very very well said. You hit the nail on the head!


Thanks, mate!



Jan 23, 2013 at 11:52 PM
Lee Saxon
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · A pervasive technique/gear myth on these high MP FF cameras?


Thom on upgrading from D200/D300/etc:
"You will be taxed in a lot of different areas...remove all the sloppiness in your shooting habits...need some different lenses...need a better support system."


binary visions wrote:
Here's where I'm confused. The D800's pixel density is lower than the pixel density of the D7000, and is not much higher than the D300. The D3x has lower pixel density than either crop body. Why aren't we seeing these dire warnings about the D300/D7000? Thom's advice is directly targeted D300 users who are already familiar with the D300's pixel density - which takes every opportunity to expose a sloppy technique or poor support, as I am excruciatingly aware .


I don't think his point is that the D800 exposes any poor technique or support that the D7000 wouldn't.

I think his point is that if you have poor technique or support, blowing $3k on a D800 won't help your photography nearly as much as you hope (and may therefore be a bad investment for you).



Jan 24, 2013 at 12:20 PM
1      
2
       end




FM Forums | Nikon Forum | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username   Password    Reset password