Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

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retrofocus
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p.6 #1 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

Reading the latest posts here, I can really see that Canon couldn't have gotten better unpaid fans applauding everything and trying to undermine every bit of criticism against Canon. Many seem to take it personal when a company is criticized which is not in any way associated to them. Wow. I am not attached to any brand, so I freely speak my personal opinion here given and accepting that others have opposite opinions which also depends what kind of photography is done.

Just saying "...sell up and switch to Nikon" is easier said than done when you are vested in good Canon glass. Many like myself are not willing to jump boat just because of a lack of a camera I wish to have. I didn't give up hope that Canon can still deliver in a timely manner, but my optimism is a bit lowered after reading rumors that a new FF camera with improved sensor would first come in a 1D series body. There is a possibility that Canon just keeps things as they are right now, and yes, I agree that the market for wedding/sports/event shooters is larger than the one for fine art and landscape photography. It might be very generalized, but Canon seems to look more towards this kind of photography but even more so towards the video market. In this case it might take really a longer time until (even if) we can expect a high MP/high DR 5D series camera. All is speculation for now, but I believe that things will clear up closer to the end of this year.

Personally I started stopping buying or upgrading to new Canon gear (given that I am set with my lenses anyway for the most part) since I am not sure in which direction Canon will move to. But I started to look in camera specs of other brands more in detail which I never did in the past. I am preparing for a possible move, but first I want to wait a bit if Canon still comes with a long expected positive surprise in what I would consider worth of a camera upgrade for me.

Jan 22, 2013 at 02:25 AM

Ralph Conway
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p.6 #2 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

It is not applauding everything, retrofocus. It is just that not everybodies photographic ambitions and skills die based upon a marginal backdraw of DR compared to another offer.

Chez does decide to stay with 5D II because there is no big enough advantadge in DR and resolution to buy the new gear. His pictures are great and in my opinion will not look better if DR is enhanced although it surly do for him and support his needs.

Would the OP have named this thread "Lack of leading/competing DR for Canon?" I would not have written my comment. But finding ways to enhance DR is not the only path do add "inspiration" to a camera body.

And even it is always welcome I am pretty sure for most photographers needs it does not have this big importance. Believe it ot not: Based on my needs in DR I could have stopped at 30D. I did not. 40D, 50D, 5D II offered and now 6D seems to offer a big "load of inspiration" for my needs.

Jan 22, 2013 at 08:21 AM

PhilDrinkwater
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p.6 #3 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

retrofocus wrote:
Reading the latest posts here, I can really see that Canon couldn't have gotten better unpaid fans applauding everything and trying to undermine every bit of criticism against Canon. Many seem to take it personal when a company is criticized which is not in any way associated to them.

I see this completely different to you - we just don't agree with you and are exercising our right to say so. You don't seem to like this so you start to make more personal comments about our motivation

You don't seem to notice the irony that you're the opposite of us - the unpaid haters sticking it to everything from Canon and trying to undermine every bit of positivity. You are us but with a different viewpoint. Yep - that's irony

Everyone agrees with the facts in this case: Canons low ISO DR is poor compared with the competition. No one is trying to wriggle out of this one.

However, the disagreement is generally with your statements along the lines that it's the end of the world (excessive over exaggeration on my part) and Canon are going down because of it and everything they do is poor and rubbish and has been for years. You seem to struggle with the idea that people out there could have a different opinion to yours and their motivations are not "fanboish" but instead that they are genuinely happy and believe your statements to be incorrect.

I honestly wish you'd stop attacking us for having a different opinion to you and questioning out motivations - it's bordering on rude. The simple explanation is actually correct: we just disagree your assessment of the Canon landscape. I personally disagree - and have said so - that the amount of people who care about DR is a small percentage of the Canon users (and I think you sort of agreed with that).

I totally understand this is important to you, but to state that Canon are making big *business* mistakes because of it is not how I see things. The small percentage of low ISO DR users suggests to me that actually Canon made *good* business decisions because they're focussing on the majority in favour of the minority.

And we're not trying to undermine every bit of criticism. We're generally succeeding in doing do. We're succeeding because your exaggerated statements don't bear much logical examination

I dunno... it just seems that you don't like that.

I'm not trying to be nasty but it's you who keeps getting personal about this stuff... so lets be nice to each other.

(But now we're going over old ground and it's getting a bit dull..

)

Jan 22, 2013 at 09:42 AM

retrofocus
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p.6 #4 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

Ralph Conway wrote:
It is not applauding everything, retrofocus. It is just that not everybodies photographic ambitions and skills die based upon a marginal backdraw of DR compared to another offer.

Chez does decide to stay with 5D II because there is no big enough advantadge in DR and resolution to buy the new gear. His pictures are great and in my opinion will not look better if DR is enhanced although it surly do for him and support his needs.

Would the OP have named this thread "Lack of leading/competing DR for Canon?" I would not have written my comment. But finding ways to enhance DR is not the only path do add "inspiration" to a camera body.

And even it is always welcome I am pretty sure for most photographers needs it does not have this big importance. Believe it ot not: Based on my needs in DR I could have stopped at 30D. I did not. 40D, 50D, 5D II offered and now 6D seems to offer a big "load of inspiration" for my needs.

Appreciate your way of stating things and expressing your opinion, Ralph. On a technical side, I understand your reasoning and I agree (I said it earlier) that the 6D in my opinion was the best camera release of Canon in 2012. It nicely filled the entry level FF niche which wasn't there before. I read your earlier posts in other threads and understand and agree why the 6D is a prefect fit for you. There is absolutely nothing wrong with this!

I am also well aware that this as a Canon forum is not just to discuss Canon gear, but it is mostly also a fan forum of people who seem to be very attached to Canon for whatever reasons. I know some here applause everything new to keep prices where they are since they are involved in trading/selling gear, so there is a business agenda hidden behind. Others are just pure fans and support Canon like a soccer team. My opinion here was well tolerated as long as I acknowledged good Canon gear like many lenses and also the 5D II, but when I started criticizing the latest developments of Canon, always the same forum members started their often unfriendly and harsh attacks as well against others who expressed similar opinions. In German you would say "Getroffene Hunde bellen", so this all comes not as a surprise.

Jan 22, 2013 at 12:59 PM

Monito
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p.6 #5 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

retrofocus wrote: but when I started criticizing the latest developments of Canon, always the same forum members started their often unfriendly and harsh attacks as well against others who expressed similar opinions.

Nope. Did not happen like that.

What happened is that after the Canon/Nikon sensor debate was well underway with many interesting technical and factual points being made, you jumped in with a series of illogical nonsensical assumptions about non-technical issues. You were mocked for that and then you became uber-defensive (this thread is an example) and went over the top accusing people of corrupt and dishonest behaviour.

You were mocked and laughed at because you started to 1) predict Canon's imminent demise and 2) ascribing venal evil motives to Canon. You did so purely speculatively without any evidence: correlation is not causation nor is it predictive. You made logical and factual errors.

You reacted to the dismissal of your speculation very negatively and began personal attacks. You accused the posters of being employed by Canon and having ulterior motives. You continue that ridiculous line of attack in this thread. Your latest conspiracy theory in this post of yours is that a small group of people are trying to raise the price of used gear by saying nice things about Canon. That is very laughable.

By making the attacks personal and libellous, you raised the temperature of the forum dramatically without creating any light.

Criticism of the latest developments of Canon is always welcomed when it is reasoned and thoughtful. Note how many others criticize the latest developments of Canon without the reaction you create.

Jan 22, 2013 at 01:14 PM

Beni
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p.6 #6 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

I think canon are at the top of their business game to be honest. They are crippling features, their sensor technology is behind the others, the prices are rising drastically on lenses and they are still selling huge amounts of cameras, have a higher percentage overall than anyone else, infact pretty much a higher percentage than Nikon and Sony put together. I teach photography in a local art college. Of my students all but two turned up for the new year with a canon DSLR, the other two had a Nikon and an Oly. Canon know exactly how to produce a product that is easy to use, good enough for most and always with one or two extra really nice features. For the majority that and great service is what counts. Yes Nikon for ages have had better bodies with better features and now better sensors and even better prices but they do not have the market penetration and recognition.

Jan 22, 2013 at 04:24 PM

ggreene
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p.6 #7 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

retrofocus wrote:
Personally I started stopping buying or upgrading to new Canon gear (given that I am set with my lenses anyway for the most part) since I am not sure in which direction Canon will move to. But I started to look in camera specs of other brands more in detail which I never did in the past. I am preparing for a possible move, but first I want to wait a bit if Canon still comes with a long expected positive surprise in what I would consider worth of a camera upgrade for me.

This is really all that needed to be said and I doubt anyone would disagree with this statement. Canon does not have a monopoly on photographic gear. If they are not meeting your own photographic needs you look to others to fill the void.

To a certain extent I think that staying with Canon while continuing to complain about the lack of progress on the number one thing that matters to you in photography is a different type of "fanboism". You are not giving Canon's competitors any respect for developing better technology as you don't intend to ever use it. At some point you have to put your money where your mouth is.

Jan 22, 2013 at 04:37 PM

jctriguy
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p.6 #8 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

Beni wrote:
... Yes Nikon for ages have had better bodies with better features and now better sensors and even better prices but they do not have the market penetration and recognition.

Agree with most of this except for the better features and bodies. Might have been the case in the past, but at the very least they are equal now and it comes down to personal preference which you prefer. Live view for instance is vastly better in Canon bodies than Nikon. Personally I get uncomfortable every time I hold a Nikon body, none of the buttons and switches are intuitive to me. Similar to picking up a blackberry after 3 years with an iPhone (and I used a BB for over 2yrs as well).

Jan 22, 2013 at 04:57 PM

goosemang
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p.6 #9 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

personally, i feel like the biggest issue canon has right now is the sizeof their gear/lack of developing their M system. i can't unload my dslr stuff because as far as i'm concerned none of the other systems can perform at the get-it-done level of bodies like the 5d3 and L glass. you all know this - you shoot under pressure, this gear gets it done. period. there's a LOT to be said for that.

i have no brand loyalty, just loyalty to how much i can accomplish with as little as possible hanging around my neck (quite literally). i'm not a sports shooter and i'm not a bird shooter, and the second one of these companies makes a camera that ticks the right boxes allowing me to unload ten pounds of stuff, off i go.

for instance, if i did landscape/tripod work i'd probably bail for one of those tiny sigma foveon's so fast it'd make your head spin. i actually did the whole landscape/tripod thing for three months last year, and lugging all that crap through the woods in 90 degree weather with mosquitoes all up in my face and napkins stuffed in my butt to soak up the sweat was brutal. but right now canon is cranking out large, beautiful stuff like the $2,200 24-70 and the 1Dx. i'd love to own this wonderful gear, but i'd never want it around my neck. meanwhile the M system is where?

Jan 22, 2013 at 05:09 PM

Beni
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p.6 #10 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

jctriguy wrote:
Beni wrote:
... Yes Nikon for ages have had better bodies with better features and now better sensors and even better prices but they do not have the market penetration and recognition.

Agree with most of this except for the better features and bodies. Might have been the case in the past, but at the very least they are equal now and it comes down to personal preference which you prefer. Live view for instance is vastly better in Canon bodies than Nikon. Personally I get uncomfortable every time I hold a Nikon body, none of the buttons and switches are intuitive to me. Similar to picking up a blackberry after 3 years with an iPhone (and I used a BB for over 2yrs as well).

If you compare a 6D to D600 for features or a 5D3 to D800, the nikon bodies are more feature rich for the price. The fact that canon still are heavily outselling the D800 with the 5D3 shows just how clever their realisation is that the price and megapixels difference is still not enough to afford a system switch and that the 5D3 is enough for the majority. We will have the D800e in the studio and my own personal 5D3 soon (had the D800e for a while), I could compare and stuff but it's the system and I can't begin to be bothered.

Most of all, this graphic courtesy of Roger from Lens Rentals:

This image is copyrighted by the owner

Edited on Jan 22, 2013 at 05:24 PM · View previous versions

Jan 22, 2013 at 05:18 PM

retrofocus
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p.6 #11 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

ggreene wrote:
retrofocus wrote:
Personally I started stopping buying or upgrading to new Canon gear (given that I am set with my lenses anyway for the most part) since I am not sure in which direction Canon will move to. But I started to look in camera specs of other brands more in detail which I never did in the past. I am preparing for a possible move, but first I want to wait a bit if Canon still comes with a long expected positive surprise in what I would consider worth of a camera upgrade for me.

This is really all that needed to be said and I doubt anyone would disagree with this statement. Canon does not have a monopoly on photographic gear. If they are not meeting your own photographic needs you look to others to fill the void.

To a certain extent I think that staying with Canon while continuing to complain about the lack of progress on the number one thing that matters to you in photography is a different type of "fanboism". You are not giving Canon's competitors any respect for developing better technology as you don't intend to ever use it. At some point you have to put your money where your mouth is.

Yes, this is right, I understand what you are saying. Very likely I will start adding another system to my current gear which adds to what I already have and/or replaces part of it later. I am more looking into the Leica system currently since I can see some advantages of this system which I currently don't have with my gear. AF is secondary for my style of photography, so I don't give this feature too much of an interest.

Jan 22, 2013 at 05:22 PM

Rickuz
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p.6 #12 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

goosemang wrote:
personally, i feel like the biggest issue canon has right now is the sizeof their gear/lack of developing their M system. i can't unload my dslr stuff because as far as i'm concerned none of the other systems can perform at the get-it-done level of bodies like the 5d3 and L glass. you all know this - you shoot under pressure, this gear gets it done. period. there's a LOT to be said for that.

i have no brand loyalty, just loyalty to how much i can accomplish with as little as possible hanging around my neck (quite literally). i'm not a sports shooter and i'm not a bird shooter, and the second one of these companies makes a camera that ticks the right boxes allowing me to unload ten pounds of stuff, off i go.

for instance, if i did landscape/tripod work i'd probably bail for one of those tiny sigma foveon's so fast it'd make your head spin. i actually did the whole landscape/tripod thing for three months last year, and lugging all that crap through the woods in 90 degree weather with mosquitoes all up in my face and napkins stuffed in my butt to soak up the sweat was brutal. but right now canon is cranking out large, beautiful stuff like the $2,200 24-70 and the 1Dx. i'd love to own this wonderful gear, but i'd never want it around my neck. meanwhile the M system is where?

^ Meanwhile the M system is floating around in the overcrowded mirrorless APS-C pond, aiming to be 'more of the same', while taking a serious ass beating from Fuji, Sony, and Olympus. Sadly, this is all all it's ever going to be, because the EF-M mount is designed to be specifically matched to the APS-C sensor size. Therefore we can all stop dreaming about a FF-version. It ain't gonna happen.

However, many are expecting both Fuji and Sony to release full frame mirrorless cameras later this year, with interchangeable mount!

http://www.amateurphotographer.co.uk/photo-news/539153/fuji-investigates-full-frame-system-camera-sensor

http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/still-working-on-the-nex-ff-rumor/

Even Samsung might have something up their sleeves. http://www.sonyalpharumors.com/surprise-samsung-may-come-out-with-a-ff-mirrorless-before-sony/

And I do agree with you. As soon as these smaller FF cameras starts rolling out, it is going to feel awesome to lighten the load.

At least when traveling, hiking, landscaping, e.t.c.

Edited on Jan 22, 2013 at 05:53 PM · View previous versions

Jan 22, 2013 at 05:28 PM

abqnmusa
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p.6 #13 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

I do not need an M mirror-less camera.

just need more pancake lenses and smaller lenses to put on our APS-C and FF cameras.
the 40mm F2.8 pancake is great lens for convenience and IQ
if makes my SLR's much more compact
the opposite of the humungous, bulky, heavy L f2.8 lenses

the last thing I want is a small camera with a small uncomfortable grip, small hard to adjust controls, and slow contrast-detect focus
--- that includes EOS-M, 4/3 format, Nikon 1, etc, etc, etc

well, to each their own. I will just use smaller lenses on an SLR (5D III / 40D)

Jan 22, 2013 at 05:52 PM

Rickuz
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p.6 #14 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

^ Oooh, but who's we? Are you suffering from multiple personality disorder?

The truth is that small and lightweight mirrorless cameras, is on top of the wishlist for many photographers. Especially a full frame model that doesn't cost 7k, like the one from Leica.

Jan 22, 2013 at 05:59 PM

abqnmusa
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p.6 #15 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

your remark about "we" makes no sense. or the somewhat rude comment

Jan 22, 2013 at 07:00 PM

Rickuz
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p.6 #16 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

abqnmusa wrote:
your remark about "we" makes no sense. or the somewhat rude comment

I apologize. It is just that I am somewhat tired of others dictating what "we" need or don't need.

Jan 22, 2013 at 07:47 PM

abqnmusa
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p.6 #17 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

no offense taken or intended

I think you will likely get a full frame compact that is affordable in the next 1-3 years.
once they move past the first generation APS-C models

Jan 22, 2013 at 08:05 PM

goosemang
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p.6 #18 · Lack of inspiration for CANON ???

abqnmusa wrote:

just need more pancake lenses and smaller lenses to put on our APS-C and FF cameras.
the 40mm F2.8 pancake is great lens for convenience and IQ
if makes my SLR's much more compact
the opposite of the humungous, bulky, heavy L f2.8 lenses

the last thing I want is a small camera with a small uncomfortable grip, small hard to adjust controls, and slow contrast-detect focus
--- that includes EOS-M, 4/3 format, Nikon 1, etc, etc, etc

i agree with you on the 40mm. i love that lens and use it on my 5d3 frequently. i also use the 50 1.4 and now have re-purchased the 28 1.8 because of its size. i sold the much too large 24-105, and have no need for anything that size or larger. i keep the 135L because, frankly, it's ridiculously good to the point where it's worth holding on to.

i'm also with you on the small controls on small cameras. i have large hands. but honestly i'm fine with, for instance, the x100 which i own and love. i can control the aperture on the lens, the shutter speed up top, EV up top... don't have much occasion to mess with the fiddly little buttons on the back. but i can completely understand how this could be an issue for someone. i also have no experience with other smaller bodies, so those may be worse.

certainly this is a personal thing. even for myself... there are times i like having a hefty body that i'm not afraid of. with the x100 i'm all tucking it in my coat so a snowflake doesn't fall on it, lest it short circuit

Jan 22, 2013 at 08:29 PM

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