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Archive 2013 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?
  
 
thedigitalbean
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


stanj wrote:
+1


Another big +1, Gochugogi got it to a tee. Its also why I largely don't bother even reading this forum anymore. I will spend a little bit of time reading stuff in the Alt. forum but it too is going down a similar path.



Jan 20, 2013 at 04:31 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


RCicala wrote:
I agree it's worse the last few years and agree that it's not FM. It seems to just be society.


We could have a whole interesting discussion about the negative (and positive) ramifications of moving a large portion of our personal interactions from the real world to the virtual world of online discussion, and the negative (and arguably, also positive) effects of anonymity.

In my non-forum life, I am a college faculty member, and I see the same or similar effects on my students and their ability (or not) to engage complex subjects and look beyond hair-trigger initial responses and consider things more deeply before resorting to attacks on the character of those they don't understand or with whom they disagree.

Things become very difficult and nasty when having a point of view or expressing an opinion is regarded as a personal attack worthy of escalation.

Dan

(updated)


Edited on Jan 20, 2013 at 05:54 PM · View previous versions



Jan 20, 2013 at 04:33 PM
eskimochaos
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Why is the 7D so noisy?














Wait wut?



Jan 20, 2013 at 04:36 PM
Gunzorro
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Compared to other forums I've been on (various subjects) this is a pretty tame place, and pretty congenial. I like it a lot better than DPR, the photo forum I came from just before this one.

I don't care for an overly-moderated, prissy forum. Often times members work out differences between themselves in public, and I find that progressive.

Then again, I get tired of overly opinionated windbags, as well as fanboy assassins (both types: those haters looking to bushwhack fanboys, and those fanboys looking to lynch the unwary non-believer, the latter not so common here as at DPR).

The "Hide" button is passive-aggressive -- we need an internet shaming symbol. Throw virtual garbage on the avatar, dripping off. Ha-ha! (Maybe a bucket of water could be thrown to clean the goo after the offender redeems themselves?)

Seriously, I like the forum a lot in the last few years, and only bemoan the exiting of so many talented contributors, some of them pretty volatile, but interesting nonetheless.



Jan 20, 2013 at 04:45 PM
outlawyer
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Seriously, I like the forum a lot in the last few years, and only bemoan the exiting of so many talented contributors, some of them pretty volatile, but interesting nonetheless.

Wherefore art thou, Brainiac?



Jan 20, 2013 at 04:50 PM
15Bit
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Dan, i don't think anonymity is inherently the problem: Anonymity doesn't make polite people rude any more than a handgun turns a mild mannered person into a rampaging murderer. There are plenty of polite anonymous folk on the forum, and no shortage of inflammatory folk who are not anonymous.

I would argue that our lack of physical interaction is probably more influential in our behaviour: Knowing each other's names is unlikely to influence what we write whilst we remain 5000 miles apart, but when there is a strong likelihood we might bump into each other in the street, i suspect what we might pay more attention.



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:06 PM
Jeff Nolten
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Robert A Heinlein [1973] wrote:
Moving parts in rubbing contact require lubrication to avoid excessive wear. Honorifics and formal politeness provide lubrication where people rub together. Often the very young, the untraveled, the naive, the unsophisticated deplore these formalities as "empty," "meaningless," or "dishonest," and scorn to use them. No matter how "pure" their motives, they thereby throw sand into machinery that does not work too well at best.


I believe too many of us are too vested in our own opinions and too dismissive of others'.



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:09 PM
ausemmao
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


alundeb wrote:
Guilty

I think you're joking, but just in case you're not, I didn't mean you, I meant the situation you described!



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:14 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Gunzorro wrote:
I like it a lot better than DPR, the photo forum...


Don't get me started on DPR. Just had a very negative and unnecessary situation over there, and won't go there again. ;-)

15Bit wrote:
Dan, i don't think anonymity is inherently the problem: Anonymity doesn't make polite people rude...


Anonymity is not always a bad thing, especially when there are real dangers to those who might truly need to speak more openly. However, speech that requires anonymity is not "free speech" at all. In fact, I think that it is the antithesis of free speech.

In my experience with online communities and online communication, anonymity encourages modes of interaction that almost no one would engage in when discussing face to face in civilized discourse. Having a real identity online encourages taking responsibility for what you say just a bit more.

Dan



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:19 PM
fraga
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


I have formed my opinion on this subject some time ago.
I believe the reason for this has been that canon has not been ahead of the game in every area like before.
When I joined FM, canon cameras were the best in nearly everything, including (and specially) sensors.
Now tables have changed somewhat.
Here in canon land (forum) some people admit that Nikon is making cameras that are better in some areas, while others have a hard time doing so and seem to have a need to defend their brand of choice.
Hence the confrontation.
Before Nikon started making FF sensors (D3/D700), everything was great here: everybody was happy, everybody agreed, everything was perfect just because no other manufacturer did it better.
Now, thing have changed somewhat (the D3s was certainly a game changer in low light) and that brings up confrontation between those who admit to that fact and those who do not realize it, who feel the need to diminish the magnitude of the "rivals" advantage or just plainly attack others for not doing their job right and implying that it's all their fault, because canon gear is perfect.

Add that to the fact of the recent perception that canon has also been crippling to some extent some of their new cameras and also the recent price policy, has not helped matters.

Want to bet that when canon releases new sensor tech that beats exmor sensors, everything will be rosy again in the canon forum?



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:26 PM
 

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ausemmao
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


fraga wrote:
I have formed my opinion on this subject some time ago.
I believe the reason for this has been that canon has not been ahead of the game in every area like before.
When I joined FM, canon cameras were the best in nearly everything, including (and specially) sensors.
Now tables have changed somewhat.
Here in canon land (forum) some people admit that Nikon is making cameras that are better in some areas, while others have a hard time doing so and seem to have a need to defend their brand of choice.
Hence the confrontation.
Before Nikon started making FF sensors (D3/D700), everything was great
...Show more

Combine that with discourse that is sometimes analagous to:

Person 1: "I ran out of petrol on my way into work this morning"

Person 2: "I disagree, I made it in just fine"

...



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:34 PM
alundeb
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


ausemmao wrote:
I think you're joking, but just in case you're not, I didn't mean you, I meant the situation you described!


I was neither joking nor thinking you meant me. I just thought your translation was spot on, including myself



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:35 PM
15Bit
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


gdanmitchell wrote:
In my experience with online communities and online communication, anonymity encourages modes of interaction that almost no one would engage in when discussing face to face in civilized discourse. Having a real identity online encourages taking responsibility for what you say just a bit more.
Dan


But is that a product of anonymity or of physical proximity?

Perhaps we are actually agreeing, but from opposite ends - in a sense physical non-proximity is a form of anonymity. For example, without meeting you in person i am unlikely to grasp the reality of you being a 6ft 6 special forces officer, even if i do know your name from an internet camera forum. Were i to have met you in person though, i would be sure to be very polite indeed.



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:35 PM
Monito
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Posting personal information about a target such as a picture of them should be reported immediately using the Report button bottom right of each post.



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:40 PM
Monito
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Using a hide button can make you answer a question that has just been answered completely and well by the person you hid. It becomes a good way to look foolish or look as if you couldn't be bothered to read the thread in a rush to post.

When you hide an FM member, everyone but you sees their statements about you which might be libelous. If the hidden member is clever enough, the statements can be just believable enough to be damaging to a reputation.

I have never seen the need to use hide buttons in any forum. Blocking PMs is another matter.



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:40 PM
Monito
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Things become very difficult and nasty when having a point of view or expressing an opinion is regarded as a personal attack worthy of escalation.


+1 Discuss the ideas and contest the facts.

When a person is attacked, the attacker should be called out. If an idea is attacked or facts contested, there is no need to get uber-defensive.

Calling an idea "silly" or "stupid" does not mean the person is stupid. Pointing out a logical error is not a personal attack. Saying that a person is "wrong", in context, does not mean they are a bad person or a worthless person. Even Einstein made mistakes and acknowledged many if not all of them. However, too many people have difficulty making the distinction, or are in too much of a hurry to read carefully, or have such ego issues that they consider any attack on their statements an attack on them personally.

Where I stray into the borderline at times -- and I apologize for doing so -- is to question people's reading skills directly, or to get heavy-handed when they don't take obvious steps to answer their own questions like searching or reading an instruction manual, or when they are clearly advanced enough that they should not get a fundamental point wrong. I do try hard to keep at least my part of the discussion on the facts and ideas.

Finally, do not mistake or confuse a sustained vigorous defense of an opinion for anger.

Einstein's 23 biggest mistakes



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:40 PM
godfather
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


fraga wrote:
Want to bet that when canon releases new sensor tech that beats exmor sensors, everything will be rosy again in the canon forum?


You're on! I'll even put down a shiny new CPS pin as part of the wager to show I'm serious.



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:41 PM
Photon
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


I realized when I started reading this thread that yesterday was my tenth anniversary as an FM brat. One thing I certainly learned from experience is that it gets tiresome to see lengthy quotes in a reply. Nonetheless, I'm quoting three people below, because they caught what I think is the state of affairs.

15Bit wrote:
I'm not sure it is any worse than when i joined, but i came here several years too late to be part of the clique of early users and the small family "feel" that i'm sure the place had in the early days.

Some topics seem to provoke quite heated debate, generally hardware/software where one person's experience doesn't mirror that of another and the two sides are unwilling to accept the validity of the others' experience. Mostly these seem to get smoothed over within thread, but there are the odd topics that veer wildly off-course and become too personal. They generally
...Show more


RCicala wrote:
I agree it's worse the last few years and agree that it's not FM. It seems to just be society.

When I take a mental step back and realize to some posters being 'right' on a largely anonymous internet forum is obviously incredibly important emotionally - well, that makes me realize I don't ever want to become that guy and I'm not angry anymore.

+1
I do enjoy it when I feel that people are actually listening to me (and I to them), and a connection, even OT humor, seems worthwhile. However, emotional arguments in this medium have no interest for me.

alundeb wrote:
Just a thought. The common knowledge about gear is at a much higher level now than say 7 years ago. At that time, we were enthusiastic about helping each other collecting knowledge. One example: Dynamic range. We developed methods to find it, we did experiments and shared our data here. Everyone was happy to find out things, and eager to learn more. Now there is a great availability of objective tests, and we know a lot more than we used to. In addition, the availability of superb gear is much higher. I think this has influenced the discussions a lot.
...Show more
Very good point. Ten years ago, I joined FM in large part because I didn't know what to do with raw files. Following the trails through that technical area, I learned things about configuring cameras that were somewhat unfamiliar to me (back button focus, e.g.). This was a good clearinghouse of useful info. We had people willing to write articles - essentially tutorials - explaining color management, anti-aliasing filters, Bayer mosaics, theoretical and practical sensor resolution, the difference between film and digital response curves, etc.

Now, all of these topics are covered extensively on the web, and are often a part of the early education of photographers who have any technical interest (not to mention engineers), so the younger people on FM have no need of such discussions except to dispute (discuss) minutia. It's only natural for a certain amount of combativeness to result. When people beat on me, I just abandon a thread. I'm not going to be pushed out of FM.



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:43 PM
Photon
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


gdanmitchell wrote:
We could have a whole interesting discussion about the negative (and positive) ramifications of moving a large portion of our personal interactions from the real world to the virtual world of online discussion, and the negative (and arguably) positive effects of anonymity.

In my non-forum life, I am a college faculty member, and I see the same or similar effects on my students and their ability (or not) to engage complex subjects and look beyond hair-trigger initial responses and consider things more deeply before resorting to attacks on the character of those they don't understand or with whom they disagree.

Things
...Show more
Spot on!



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:46 PM
Photon
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Does this forum have a negative tone lately?


Monito wrote:
Using a hide button can make you answer a question that has just been answered completely and well by the person you hid. It becomes a good way to look foolish or look as if you couldn't be bothered to read the thread in a rush to post.

When you hide an FM member, everyone but you sees their statements about you which might be libelous. If the hidden member is clever enough, the statements can be just believable enough to be damaging to a reputation.

I have never seen the need to use hide buttons in any forum. Blocking PMs is
...Show more
+1



Jan 20, 2013 at 05:52 PM
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