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Archive 2013 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?
  
 
cputeq
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p.1 #1 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


*Disclaimer - I've never shot with a TS-E or PC-E (Nikon) lens but I'm considering getting into work that benefits from such lenses.


Okay, here's the deal - Eventually, I think I might want to try to delve into paid architectural and food photography - I'm already getting pretty good at food, and I've just started architectural practice. For these types of photography, I know TSE lenses are very valuable, but I've never actually shot with one. My hobby shots are landscape, so of course they'll help there too.


My question then is I always read about Canon's 17 and 24mm lenses having independent movements (I'm probably getting the phraseology wrong), whereas Nikon's 24mm PCE lens doesn't.

So if I understand this, Canon can tilt and shift independently, yes? Whereas Nikon PCE can't?
And if I am understanding this correctly just how important is this type of capability?

I would imagine this wouldn't be an issue with food, but perhaps with architecture if one couldn't tilt and image then stitch using shifts?

If I've got this wrong, please do tell I'd love to give both setups a rental, but without owning a Nikon or Canon DSLR, we're talking $400+ for 5 days of practice with each, which isn't exactly cheap or enough time to really get a hang of things.


Just thought I'd ask - Either system is nice for me, but I'm wondering if this is a moot question anyway since I'd end up using Canons 17mm, which Nikon doesn't duplicate. Thoughts?

Thanks!



Jan 17, 2013 at 12:51 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


Hi J.L.

Yes. The TS-E 17/4L and TS-E 24/3.5L II have independent axes for tilt and shift. The TS-E 24/3.5L, 45/2.8, and 90/2.8 do not. The three older ones can be adjusted so that shift is either side to side, or up and down (with tilt nose down, for example), but it requires some bench time.

I can give you a couple of simple examples of why it's nice to be able to adjust the relative directions of tilt and shift axes.

1. Consider a typical landscape panorama where you use nose-down tilt to get near and far fields in focus, and then use side-to-side shift to make the photos that will be combined into the pano (shift left, shift centre (no shift), and shift right). In this case, the tilt and shift motions are on the same horizontal axis.

2. Of course, it can be as complex as the subject you're shooting. Say you want to take a photo of a picket fence that goes from near field right to far field left. Also, you want a relatively low vantage point, but you don't want to get down on your knees in the gravel. Use sideways tilt to align the plane of focus with the plane of the picket fence, and then use down shift to make it look like you're shooting from a relatively low position, rather than from the top of your tripod. Oops, this is the same combination of movements as the first example, except rotated 90 degrees. Anyway, you get the idea.

TS info links, http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1109125/0#10588672

Jim

P.S. you can pick up an excellent used 5DII for a song, these days.



Jan 17, 2013 at 01:10 PM
Photon
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p.1 #3 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


With the newer Canons, you can also align the shift or tilt to intermediate angles. With the camera horizontal, e.g., you could shift at a 45 angle left and upward (to show a lot of sky and a fence extending to your left , while keeping the camera almost parallel to the fence for reasons of focus and perspective) *and* you could also tilt the lens upward to allow focus on both the fence and a tree in the distance extending up into the sky region.

The flexibility is very nice to have.



Jan 17, 2013 at 02:19 PM
Photon
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p.1 #4 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


jcolwell wrote:
...
P.S. you can pick up an excellent used 5DII for a song, these days.

As a musician, I need to learn that song...

Agreed, they are a great bargain in relative terms.



Jan 17, 2013 at 02:21 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #5 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


For my style of shooting, the dual movement is not very important. I seldom use tilt, but almost always use the shift, and mostly in the vertical orientation.

Don't let the seemingly endless variations inhibit you. You can start using the lens with simple shifts, gradually expanding your understanding of the tilts and the more complex combinations.

A main reason I don't combine -- I'm usually trying to bring in the tops of tall buildings, and running out of movement as it is. To introduce tilt as well, it often makes the usable image circle reduced.

A trick I learned from the old 4x5 view camera days using a poor coverage 65mm UWA lens is to "reverse" the tilt (tilting the lens up very slightly for tall buildings), which tilts the image circle for more coverage (less vignetting) even though it is now more out of focus. Use the smallest possible aperture and jockey the tilt back and forth to the optimum sharpness available for the conditions (shift, reverse tilt, small aperture) against the vignetting. It should be pretty simple to do with LV these days.

Welcome to some of the best imaging possible in photography -- have fun!



Jan 17, 2013 at 03:33 PM
 

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Mike K
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p.1 #6 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


Another issue that has not been addressed is the direct comparison of image quality of the Nikon D800 + PCE Vs the Canon 5DII + 17(or 24II) TSE. The two recent Canon lenses are of higher IQ than the Nikon PCE. For me this is a good reason to use Canon bodies over the consideration of switching to Nikon. The difference in IQ between lenses is normally of much larger impact than the IQ difference between bodies. Examples are shown in this thread:

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/thread/3337603

The author, Joger, has also posted comparisons of Nikon D800 with 14-24 Vs Canon 5DII with 17 TSE.

http://forums.dpreview.com/forums/post/50486402

To address the OP's original question as to the importance of independent rotation of tilt Vs shift axis, in my use (mostly landscape) I do value this capability inherent in the 17 and 24 TSE II lens movements. I have used the older 24 TSE version I and occasionally found this to be a limitation. The older TSE 45 and 90 lenses have a fixed relationship of tilt and shift axis, but this can be rotated (+- 90 degrees) by taking out 4 screws, rotating the lens and reattaching the screws. Food photography is often done with the 45mm TSE, so this may be a consideration for the OP. I do not know if the Nikon PCE lenses are modifiable in this way.
http://www.outbackphoto.com/workflow/wf_42/essay.html

Mike K



Jan 17, 2013 at 04:38 PM
cputeq
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p.1 #7 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


Good info thanks for all the replies!


Jan 17, 2013 at 07:16 PM
RobDickinson
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p.1 #8 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


I'm always rotating tilt vs shift.

I shoot lots of shifted portrait shots , and standard unshifted (or shifted vertically) landscape shots.

I've only used the 24tse mkII so dont know how much of a pain it would be without this ability.



Jan 17, 2013 at 07:50 PM
retrofocus
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p.1 #9 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


I upgraded a few months ago to the 24/3.5 T/S lens. I use it in 90% for shift only, in 10% combined with tilt, and in those 10% cases only a few times with rotated T/S other than parallel to each other. Biggest advantage of the new T/S version is the lack of vignetting at fully shifted image circles.


Jan 17, 2013 at 08:23 PM
artd
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p.1 #10 · TS-E Shooters - How important is dual-movement?


cputeq wrote:
My question then is I always read about Canon's 17 and 24mm lenses having independent movements (I'm probably getting the phraseology wrong), whereas Nikon's 24mm PCE lens doesn't.

So if I understand this, Canon can tilt and shift independently, yes? Whereas Nikon PCE can't?
And if I am understanding this correctly just how important is this type of capability?

I would imagine this wouldn't be an issue with food, but perhaps with architecture if one couldn't tilt and image then stitch using shifts?

I think the phrase to sum up when I've used tilt for architecture photography would be "very rarely." In practice I haven't really run across many situations where I don't get sufficent DOF just by stopping down moderately. I just don't usually set up with something so close in the foreground while requiring critical focus across the entire frame.

So I wouldn't call it a deal breaker if you're leaning towards Nikon. But as already mentioned previously, Canon's TSEs are a bit better optically than Nikon's PCEs, and that's the primary reason I stick with Canon.



Jan 17, 2013 at 08:49 PM





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