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Archive 2013 · A simple test: full frame versus crop
  
 
Liquidstone
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Pixel Perfect wrote:
After looking at all these shots, 7D rules the roost. That 1D X comparison showed the 7D to be vastly better. Upsize, downsize, look at tea leaves, if you are FL limited and at least at lower ISOs 7D is hard to beat.


My default birding body is a 7D. Backups are a 1D4/5D2.



Jan 14, 2013 at 10:29 PM
Marco
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


RobDickinson wrote:
Ah looks like iI misread, from the 6d review...

"Many other comparisons can be made using the image quality results from the 200 f/2 IS (use f/5.6 as the comparison aperture). The also excellent 1D X has less resolution and the 5D III, at review time, remains the highest resolution Canon DSLR camera available. "


Ok Rob, that makes sense indeed.

Cheers



Jan 14, 2013 at 10:33 PM
Monito
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


DynaSport wrote:
Like I said, there is no such thing as a simple test on FM.


Or in life.



Jan 14, 2013 at 10:35 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Liquidstone wrote:
My default birding body is a 7D. Backups are a 1D4/5D2.


Romy, you need to get the 5D III ASAP. But I use my 7D the most of my cameras for birding.



Jan 14, 2013 at 11:23 PM
Liquidstone
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Romy, you need to get the 5D III ASAP. But I use my 7D the most of my cameras for birding.


I'd pass on the 5D3. My 1D4's AF is good enough for BIFs, plus it has a higher pixel density than the 5D3. Noise is not an issue for me too, even with the 7D.



Jan 15, 2013 at 02:17 AM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Liquidstone wrote:
I'd pass on the 5D3. My 1D4's AF is good enough for BIFs, plus it has a higher pixel density than the 5D3. Noise is not an issue for me too, even with the 7D.


I own the 1D IV as well, and 5D III is better in AF (especially with lower contrast subjects), and noise and the reach advantage for the 1D IV is only ~10%.



Jan 15, 2013 at 02:47 AM
Liquidstone
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Pixel Perfect wrote:
I own the 1D IV as well, and 5D III is better in AF (especially with lower contrast subjects), and noise and the reach advantage for the 1D IV is only ~10%.


Just curious, any other advantage of the 5D3 over the 1D4 in birding, aside from improved AF?




Jan 15, 2013 at 02:53 AM
skibum5
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Did a similar test last year, the pics again:
one is in cam jpgs, the other 100% unsharpened RAWs:
7D is top, then 5D2 then 5D3 then 7D pasted to the bottom again
some browsers may require that you click the images to see them at 100% view

http://sunsetbayphotography.zenfolio.com/img/s4/v62/p1143978818.jpg
http://sunsetbayphotography.zenfolio.com/img/s4/v69/p1143979030.jpg

Edited on Jan 15, 2013 at 03:56 AM · View previous versions



Jan 15, 2013 at 03:38 AM
skibum5
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


deleted, hmm not sure how they double posted itself


Edited on Jan 15, 2013 at 03:56 AM · View previous versions



Jan 15, 2013 at 03:43 AM
skibum5
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


robbymack wrote:
so really all you have proven here is that in general modern crop sensors puts more pixels on target? Thats not not surprising, hence the reason APS-C is a good option for any situation you find yourself FL limited.


his point was to counter, the fair number, who go around claiming that the lower quality pixels coming from a 7D negate the reach advantage (interestingly, given a contrasty subject in a well lit part of the scene, even at ISO6400 the 7D still maintains a hefty reach advantage of even a high iso monster like the 5D3)



Jan 15, 2013 at 03:46 AM
 

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skibum5
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Mike Sowsun wrote:
On my last antenna test the 7D was cropped to 898 x 956 while the 5D Mk II was cropped to 615 x 655.


ok

Both images were then resized to 640 x 680.


well that explains why you never see much difference! you compare them at a scale barely larger than what the FF captures but much lower than what the 7D captures!

looking at your 100% crops and the difference is suddenly back again as expected



Jan 15, 2013 at 03:51 AM
skibum5
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


RobDickinson wrote:
Unsurprising results are unsurprising.

That putting 18mp onto the same area as 7-8mp yeilds more detail isnt a shock is it? That it yields less additional detail than the extra number of pixels is also no surprise, as cameras do not resolve as many linepairs of resolution as the pure number of pixels suggest.

If your focal length limited go for high pixel density. if the FF is the same pixel density (say 5dmkII and 20dm, D7000, D800) there wont be much difference at all.


Considering that half the comments in even this thread with his samples are still casting doubt, I'd say it is shocking enough to have been a worthwhile post from the OP!



Jan 15, 2013 at 03:54 AM
jerbear00
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


howard wrote:
When they say "you could crop a full‐frame image and achieve exactly the same thing", it is implied that the two cameras had the same pixel density.

When they have different pixel density, then the resolution is determined by .. well, the pixel density of each sensor.


Thanks for the above comment. This seems obvious to me but I am surprised how often ppl seem confused by this concept. Seems everyday this gets asked in some strange way.

Personally, I think we should stop talking about crop = reach and discuss pixel density instead.



Jan 15, 2013 at 04:03 AM
Sheldon N
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Harry.C wrote:
My images were unprocessed, straight from camera raws. Keep in mind I'm posting a pretty severe crop (~20% of original resolution, and the face is a crop of that).

Cheers,
Harry C


Not arguing with your conclusion (pretty obvious that the 7D is going to have more effective resolution than the 1DX due to higher pixel density). Just questioning the extent of the difference shown. All the other tests have shown differences that are noticeable but not as drastic as your test, in line with what I'd expect.

Back to my original questions... iI you didn't live view focus, then you are also testing focus variation between bodies... another complicating factor. If you didn't refocus the lens at all between tests then you're also bringing in the variable of whether the sensor to flange distance is exactly the same on both cameras. No mirror lockup also brings into question whether mirror slap is better/worse on one camera vs another. Camera RAW can't be exported as "unprocessed", at the very least you are using whatever default processing parameters Adobe set for each camera... the question was whether those settings were the same for both shots. Contrast looked markedly different, which could either be due to processing settings or perhaps due to misfocus.

And yes, there is no such thing as a simple test on FM.



Jan 15, 2013 at 05:10 PM
deepbluejh
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Crop vs FF reach might be the single most misunderstood concept in all of digital photography.

I still can't believe we are having threads like this in the year 2013.



Jan 15, 2013 at 05:14 PM
dbehrens
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


deepbluejh wrote:
Crop vs FF reach might be the single most misunderstood concept in all of digital photography.

I still can't believe we are having threads like this in the year 2013.


Agree. Smaller denser pixels does have some advantages but its the not the all that ends all.

There is more to IQ, i.e. sensor noise, pixel light capturing ability, signal to noise ratio, diffraction limits, dynamic range. For example explain


this comparison between 1Dx and 7D. Or crank it up to f/11 and see some real difference.



Jan 15, 2013 at 05:51 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Liquidstone wrote:
Just curious, any other advantage of the 5D3 over the 1D4 in birding, aside from improved AF?



Well it's not a huge difference, overall, but if you aren't FL limited, the extra pixels of the 5D III allow for some great feather detail and you do notice the lower noise above ISO 1600. I'd say it's > 0.5 stop better above ISO 3200, probably closer to 1 stop at ISO 6400+.

It's nice on the 5D III, like the 7D, to be easily able to change your AF point from spot to normal to expanded etc with the MFn button. So much more customisable than the 1D IV. All you'll really miss is the rugged build and extra speed and better battery, although the 5D III still can get 1000+ shots and if you use the grip you'll double that.




Jan 15, 2013 at 10:01 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


dbehrens wrote:
Agree. Smaller denser pixels does have some advantages but its the not the all that ends all.

There is more to IQ, i.e. sensor noise, pixel light capturing ability, signal to noise ratio, diffraction limits, dynamic range. For example explain

this comparison between 1Dx and 7D. Or crank it up to f/11 and see some real difference.


Why would you crank the 7D up to f/11? That's like f/18 on FF, and you will definitely be diffraction affected.



Jan 15, 2013 at 10:07 PM
dbehrens
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Pixel Perfect wrote:
Why would you crank the 7D up to f/11? That's like f/18 on FF, and you will definitely be diffraction affected.


Exactly my point - as not all my wildlife telephotos are shot WO. However, the link I provided was f/5.6.



Jan 16, 2013 at 01:17 AM
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