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Archive 2013 · A simple test: full frame versus crop

  
 
Sheldon N
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Something looks not quite right with the original test. I would have expected results more in line with Mike's test, that the 7D would be better but not that much better.

Some simple questions on methodology... Did you live view manual focus both images at 10x? Mirror lockup used/remote release/self timer? Same default settings in your RAW processor for sharpening/contrast/clarity?



Jan 14, 2013 at 12:11 PM
Harry.C
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Sheldon N wrote:
Something looks not quite right with the original test. I would have expected results more in line with Mike's test, that the 7D would be better but not that much better.

Some simple questions on methodology... Did you live view manual focus both images at 10x? Mirror lockup used/remote release/self timer? Same default settings in your RAW processor for sharpening/contrast/clarity?

My images were unprocessed, straight from camera raws. Keep in mind I'm posting a pretty severe crop (~20% of original resolution, and the face is a crop of that).

Cheers,
Harry C



Jan 14, 2013 at 12:18 PM
MaximeTrepreau
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Mike, do you enlarge the 5D crop to 7D size or do you go the other way around ?

When I enlarge 6d 100% crop to 7D size, I found the 7D to be the best. (that's what is closer to be FL limited)

I maybe have to test once again.



Jan 14, 2013 at 12:35 PM
Mike Sowsun
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


On my last antenna test the 7D was cropped to 898 x 956 while the 5D Mk II was cropped to 615 x 655. Both images were then resized to 640 x 680.

Here they are as 100% crops with no resizing.






Jan 14, 2013 at 12:46 PM
MaximeTrepreau
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Ok thanks.

When FL limited, you'll want to enlarge 5D to 898 x 956.

That's where we'll see the 7D advantage.



Jan 14, 2013 at 12:56 PM
Mike Sowsun
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


I always see a 7D advantage, just not as much as some others it seems.

Here are the images again with the 5D Mk II upsized to match the 7D.

7D 100% crop at 898 x 956


5D Mk II upsized from 615 x 655 to 898 x 956



Jan 14, 2013 at 01:07 PM
MaximeTrepreau
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


6D enlarged to 7D size.
http://maximetrepreau.zenfolio.com/img/s8/v75/p1379799544.jpg


7d 100% crop
http://maximetrepreau.zenfolio.com/img/s3/v23/p1379799592.jpg


Both focused on the crown

That's like your shot Mike, 7D is a bit better.



Jan 14, 2013 at 01:26 PM
MaximeTrepreau
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


In my previous post, both shots are not usable at this size for on screen display.

But if you use the 7D shot resized to 6D size and sharpen both. You can use the 7D for on screen display. 6D is still not good enough.

7D at 6D size :
http://maximetrepreau.zenfolio.com/img/s2/v70/p1379839908.jpg


6D 100% crop:
http://maximetrepreau.zenfolio.com/img/s2/v71/p1379839944.jpg



Jan 14, 2013 at 01:45 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


If you are going to shoot antennas for your sharpness test, at least make sure that the subject is parallel to the sensor - otherwise you are introducing a couple of spurious elements into your "test" that should not be there.

Some of you could save yourselves a lot of trouble by reading my post way back at the start of this thread. There really isn't a lot else to say or prove about this issue.

Upsizing one sample or downsizing the other to equalize them weakens the test in that it introduces another variable that affects the very thing you are trying to assess. (A decent real-world assessment might be to compare prints at equal sizes or perhaps jpgs at your typical target output sizes.)

Some might also explore whether or not the difference is actually visible in your typical photographic product, be that shared jpgs or small prints or something else. And consider that in the light of other functional differences between formats.

Dan

(edited a bit)

Mike Sowsun wrote:
On my last antenna test the 7D was cropped to 898 x 956 while the 5D Mk II was cropped to 615 x 655. Both images were then resized to 640 x 680.

Here they are as 100% crops with no resizing.

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Photo10/IMG_5819a100a.jpg

http://i2.photobucket.com/albums/y17/msowsun/photo%20stuff/Photo10/IMG_7202a100a.jpg



Edited on Jan 14, 2013 at 10:12 PM · View previous versions



Jan 14, 2013 at 03:05 PM
galenapass
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · A simple test: full frame versus crop





Why so arrogant?

It's OK to revisit accepted ideas with actual examples, and there are some interesting difference being shown here.



Jan 14, 2013 at 03:18 PM
DynaSport
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


I am not a very active member here, but even I know that there is no such thing as a simple test on FM.


Jan 14, 2013 at 03:37 PM
RobDickinson
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p.2 #12 · p.2 #12 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Unsurprising results are unsurprising.

That putting 18mp onto the same area as 7-8mp yeilds more detail isnt a shock is it? That it yields less additional detail than the extra number of pixels is also no surprise, as cameras do not resolve as many linepairs of resolution as the pure number of pixels suggest.

If your focal length limited go for high pixel density. if the FF is the same pixel density (say 5dmkII and 20dm, D7000, D800) there wont be much difference at all.



Jan 14, 2013 at 03:45 PM
Monito
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p.2 #13 · p.2 #13 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


DynaSport wrote:
I am not a very active member here, but even I know that there is no such thing as a simple test on FM.


That is a fact of life, inside and outside of FM.

A "simple test" is very rare in any field of endeavour, because there are almost always many variables to control. False positives and false negatives abound and have to be investigated and rooted out. Systematic errors are common and have to be guarded against, with pre-emptive planning and continual auditing and sampling in detail.

The majority of members and people do not truly comprehend this.

The worth of tests is inversely proportional to their simplicity. Carefully planned, rigorously executed, and fastidiously scrutinized tests take lots of time and effort, but they are the ones that yield the greatest amount of knowledge and insight.

Of course, where a person is working from a base of little experience, then a simple test can still be highly valuable, provided the person takes it as indicative only, and not definitive. I highly recommend that people get into the habit of making simple tests like that to help guide them on gaining experience and knowledge but not to put too much weight on the results without more study, review, discusssion and thought.




Jan 14, 2013 at 04:14 PM
Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #14 · p.2 #14 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


After looking at all these shots, 7D rules the roost. That 1D X comparison showed the 7D to be vastly better. Upsize, downsize, look at tea leaves, if you are FL limited and at least at lower ISOs 7D is hard to beat.

http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif



Jan 14, 2013 at 04:16 PM
galenapass
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p.2 #15 · p.2 #15 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Pixel Perfect wrote:
After looking at all these shots, 7D rules the roost. That 1D X comparison showed the 7D to be vastly better. Upsize, downsize, look at tea leaves, if you are FL limited and at least at lower ISOs 7D is hard to beat.

http://www.fordxr6turbo.com/forum/public/style_emoticons/default/popcorn.gif


...and yet 1Dx owners may have you believe otherwise. It's nice to see, with one's own eyes, the comparison. However, I would be most interested in higher ISOs since I find myself in the cloud forest of Ecuador generally once a year, and deciding what gear to take is not easy with ever changing technology. So from my point of view the negativity in this thread is somewhat frustrating because I do not find this an easy decision at all. What I need, perhaps not interesting or relevant to others, are more examples in an expanded ISO range.



Edited on Jan 14, 2013 at 04:31 PM · View previous versions



Jan 14, 2013 at 04:27 PM
Marco
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p.2 #16 · p.2 #16 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Agreed w/PixelPerfect


Jan 14, 2013 at 04:27 PM
RobDickinson
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p.2 #17 · p.2 #17 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Note according to TDP the 1dx resolves more detail than any other canon camera ( in lpph/lpmm).

A simple bit of maths would work out how many lpmm it resolves in a crop area and compare to the same result from a 7d.



Jan 14, 2013 at 04:30 PM
Marco
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p.2 #18 · p.2 #18 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


RobDickinson wrote:
Note according to TDP the 1dx resolves more detail than any other canon camera ( in lpph/lpmm).


Rob, where did you read that?...
I went to TDP site after your post but this is their finding about 1Dx resolution:
"The 1D X's full frame sensor especially shines in comparison to the APS-C sensor format 7D. The 1D X also compares quite favorably to the APS-H 1D sensor format Mark IV. The higher resolution full frame sensor DSLRs (5D II, 5D III and 1Ds III) show an advantage in resolution."

Just curious if I missed something.



Jan 14, 2013 at 04:45 PM
RobDickinson
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p.2 #19 · p.2 #19 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Ah looks like iI misread, from the 6d review...

"Many other comparisons can be made using the image quality results from the 200 f/2 IS (use f/5.6 as the comparison aperture). The also excellent 1D X has less resolution and the 5D III, at review time, remains the highest resolution Canon DSLR camera available. "



Jan 14, 2013 at 05:01 PM
DynaSport
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p.2 #20 · p.2 #20 · A simple test: full frame versus crop


Monito wrote:
That is a fact of life, inside and outside of FM.

A "simple test" is very rare in any field of endeavour, because there are almost always many variables to control. False positives and false negatives abound and have to be investigated and rooted out. Systematic errors are common and have to be guarded against, with pre-emptive planning and continual auditing and sampling in detail.

The majority of members and people do not truly comprehend this.

The worth of tests is inversely proportional to their simplicity. Carefully planned, rigorously executed, and fastidiously scrutinized tests take lots of time and effort, but they are
...Show more
Like I said, there is no such thing as a simple test on FM.



Jan 14, 2013 at 05:11 PM
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