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Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

PetKal
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p.2 #1 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

pony girl wrote:
With the prices dropping on the Canon 1D Mark IV's, I'm tempted to upgrade from my 1D Mark IIN. I shoot horse shows, sometimes indoors, often in challenging (dusty, hot, maybe wet) conditions and use a flash indoors and at night. My current camera is reliable, but becoming older, and "only" has 8 megapix. Do you think the image quality or focusing speeds are noticeably better in the IV, enough to justify the upgrade? I'm aware of the bigger files produced by the IV and its higher ISO rating.

How about upgrading to 5DMkIII ?

Jan 11, 2013 at 04:52 AM

rscheffler
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p.2 #2 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

I second the 5DIII, primarily for the AF system, if you can live with only 6 fps instead of the ~8 in the 1DIIN. But, it's full frame and you might find yourself in a bit of an odd situation with your lenses, if you're used to using specific lenses in specific venues with the APS-H crop. Then again, the 5DIII cropped down to APS-H will give you more than 8MP..

Russ Isabella wrote:
I agree that the 1DIII is a great bargain right now, and the fact IQ differences may only be marginal certainly is relevant. But what often is lost in such considerations is the question of whether a particular camera increases your likelihood of getting the shot, for there's no point to talking about IQ until you have a sharply focused image to consider. Where action photography is at play, there may be benefits to the 1DIV over the 1DIII that precede IQ comparisons. This is not easily quantifiable and may not be important enough to opt for the 1DIV over the 1DIII, but it's worth recognizing as a factor.

The AF in the IV is somewhat better than the 1DIII, but you're also dealing with higher rez files that demand higher AF precision. Add to that added resolution a higher 'resolution' of subject/camera motion blur, etc., and sometimes it feels like it's not really gaining you anything. My feeling was always that the 1DIV's AF and high ISO was a good evolutionary improvement, but nothing revolutionary. That's where the 5DIII and 1DX come into consideration. If what you really want to improve over the IIN is AF performance, then the latest 5DIII/1DX AF is a significant improvement. OK, I'm basing my opinion on about a half-year with the 1DX after a couple years with the IV and prior to that, the III and IIN. I *assume* the 5DIII's AF is 90% that of the 1DX.

Jan 11, 2013 at 06:27 AM

PetKal
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p.2 #3 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

rscheffler wrote:
My feeling was always that the 1DIV's AF and high ISO was a good evolutionary improvement, but nothing revolutionary. That's where the 5DIII and 1DX come into consideration. If what you really want to improve over the IIN is AF performance, then the latest 5DIII/1DX AF is a significant improvement.

My feeling too. That is why I skipped both Mk III and Mk IV until 5DMkIII and 1DX came along, which finally offered a new approach to AF as well as really superior high ISO noise suppression, to name the two key assets.

Now, when it comes to similarities between 5DMkIII AF and 1DX AF, if the only difference is in iTR AF, then that doesn't amount to much for most users.

Jan 11, 2013 at 01:43 PM

pony girl
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p.2 #4 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

So just when I lean toward getting the 1D4, I start to question that maybe the 5D3 will do what I want? I really need reliabiliby in tracking/focusing a moving horse, often in low light. I do NOT shoot in bursts, so frames per second is not a concern. I actually would prefer to get closer to the subjects at night with my 70-200 so the flash can throw plenty of light on them, so the 5D3 would be an advantage. I just question if the 5D3 can keep up with the action as well (or better?) than the 1D4. Are there any of you shooting sports with your 5D3's and using flash? I always thought they were better suited for portrait and landscape. Does the 5D3's slower sync speed affect your clarity? Are most of your action shots focused with the 5D3?

Jan 11, 2013 at 02:15 PM

ggreene
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p.2 #5 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

If FPS is not a concern then the 5D3 is the body to get. It has the latest AF and comes close to the pixel density of the 1D4 so you don't lose much reach. It also has a very quiet shutter which might be helpful around skittish horses.

As far as flash goes, I've never done it in any of my equestrian work. Far too leery of potentially spooking the horse. The 5D3 is far, far better in high ISO then a 1D2 so maybe it will allow you to go ambient light more often. Either way, the 1D4 or 5D3 will be a big improvement over what you have now.

Jan 11, 2013 at 03:14 PM

e.aland
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p.2 #6 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

Russ Isabella wrote:
I agree that the 1DIII is a great bargain right now, and the fact IQ differences may only be marginal certainly is relevant. But what often is lost in such considerations is the question of whether a particular camera increases your likelihood of getting the shot, for there's no point to talking about IQ until you have a sharply focused image to consider. Where action photography is at play, there may be benefits to the 1DIV over the 1DIII that precede IQ comparisons. This is not easily quantifiable and may not be important enough to opt for the 1DIV over the 1DIII, but it's worth recognizing as a factor.

yes, and not to forget the better buffer performance of the 1D4.
i own both the 3 and 4 and find that the H burst continuity of the 1D4 is definitely superior.
only because of that the 1D4 is a truly better sport and BIF cam.

Jan 11, 2013 at 03:25 PM

rddelliott
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p.2 #7 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

I have owned a1DII, 1DIII, 1DIV and now a1DX. I shoot rodeo most of the time outdoor with good light. The biggest jump for me was the 1DIV. Better AF and resolution with greater ability to crop than any of the previous models.

Jan 11, 2013 at 03:49 PM

schlotz
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p.2 #8 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

Please tell me you are kidding... using flash with horses?

Jan 12, 2013 at 01:58 PM

andyz
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p.2 #9 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

To piggy back on this I use a 1D Mark III now with a 7D, 2nd. I like the IQ of the Mk III and the burst rate for sports. Most, but not all of my sports shooting is Friday night lights and dim gyms. The 7D does better with its high ISO range in the dark, but the Mark III gets by. I find myself with the Mark III images going into LR4 and adding a third or more of a stop of light, and reducing the shadows. So much, but not all of my shooting is in bad light.

I'm trying to decide if a Mark IV would be a sound upgrade to the III for the ISO bump, or just keep on keeping on and look for a 1DX in a year, maybe 2 when prices drop as they are sold used more then?

As a hobbyist buying a new X seems extreme and I'm a bit cheap for an extreme hobby.

Jan 17, 2013 at 06:35 AM

schlotz
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p.2 #10 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

Andy, the best way to truly answer your question would be to rent the Mk IV, shoot it along side of your III and compare results of the IV's higher ISO vs pp'd III exposure in LR.

Regards,
Matt

Jan 17, 2013 at 02:45 PM

andyz
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p.2 #11 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

In fact I was thinking of that. Thanks for the confirmation.

Jan 17, 2013 at 02:49 PM

abh
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p.2 #12 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

I've been shooting horse shows for 8 years now, first with a 20D, then a 1DMk II (not 'N'), and as of 4 or 5 years ago, a 1D Mk III. I'm also now on the fence about moving to a Mk IV or possibly a 5D Mk III. I can tell you from my experience, the move from the Mk II to the Mk III was HUGE, and if you decide to go that route, you will not be disappointed. Despite the bad rap the III got at the beginning, it is faster at acquisition and tracking than the II was, your keeper rate will go up. About the only complaint I have with it today is the 10MP doesn't allow for as much cropping as I sometimes wish I had. As another poster mentioned, for apx $1000, you cannot possibly go wrong with a 1D3, and you'll have some cash left over to expand your lens collection.

My question for the forum: is there enough weather sealing in the 5D III to keep dust out? Horse shows are notorious for dust, but it's never been a factor for me with the 1D2 / 1D3. Will I come to regret the decision if I go with a gripped 5D3? And will a 5D3 with grip feel as solid and robust as a 1D4?

Jan 17, 2013 at 05:25 PM

Pixel Perfect
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p.2 #13 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

abh wrote:
I've been shooting horse shows for 8 years now, first with a 20D, then a 1DMk II (not 'N'), and as of 4 or 5 years ago, a 1D Mk III. I'm also now on the fence about moving to a Mk IV or possibly a 5D Mk III. I can tell you from my experience, the move from the Mk II to the Mk III was HUGE, and if you decide to go that route, you will not be disappointed. Despite the bad rap the III got at the beginning, it is faster at acquisition and tracking than the II was, your keeper rate will go up. About the only complaint I have with it today is the 10MP doesn't allow for as much cropping as I sometimes wish I had. As another poster mentioned, for apx $1000, you cannot possibly go wrong with a 1D3, and you'll have some cash left over to expand your lens collection.

My question for the forum: is there enough weather sealing in the 5D III to keep dust out? Horse shows are notorious for dust, but it's never been a factor for me with the 1D2 / 1D3. Will I come to regret the decision if I go with a gripped 5D3? And will a 5D3 with grip feel as solid and robust as a 1D4?

I can't answer the dust question, but all I know is the 5D III is sealed essentially the same as the EOS 3 and EOS 1N. Whether that's good enough I don't know. But it's AF and IQ is above that of the 1D IV which is itself no slouch.

The 1D III is an amazing buy and since you aren't focal length limited for horses, the 10MP will do a nice job, even for fairly large prints if that's important. 1D III + 70-200 f/2.8L IS mk II will be similar price if not cheaper than a 1D IV.

Jan 17, 2013 at 09:16 PM

bobmcg
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p.2 #14 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

I think the 5d3 is your camera. I shot horse shows with the Mark III and it performed -- EXCEPT in indoor arenas where the lighting was terrible (Los Angeles Equestrian Center). I simply didn't think the high ISO performance of the camera was adequate for the aperture/shutter settings that I wanted. If you are not spraying-and-praying with the fast shutter of either the Mark IV or III, I'd go with the new camera.

For what it's worth, I got a Nikon D3 and got shots I could never have gotten with the Mark III. Don't yell at me -- I'm not a fanboy. Still own Canon and still like it.

Jan 17, 2013 at 09:49 PM

pony girl
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p.2 #15 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

Thanks for all your suggestions. I'm now leaning toward the 5D3. B&H has them for just under $3K; still a little above my comfort zone, but I feel the new camera would pay for itself by way of more usable photos. My 1D2N is great with adequate light, but does struggle to hit focus consistently as the light fades. Has any sports shooter here had problems with the 5D3's focus points? I've done lots of reading about that camera lately, and that seems to be one of the negatives. As I'm tracking fast-moving horses in dim light, would I have trouble seeing focus points in AI Servo?

Jan 19, 2013 at 02:15 AM

abh
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p.2 #16 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

pony girl wrote:
Has any sports shooter here had problems with the 5D3's focus points? I've done lots of reading about that camera lately, and that seems to be one of the negatives. As I'm tracking fast-moving horses in dim light, would I have trouble seeing focus points in AI Servo?

Is this the issue you're referring to?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1099852/0

I hadn't even heard of this until your post send me searching. Does the 1D4 have the same issue?

Jan 20, 2013 at 09:34 PM

pony girl
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p.2 #17 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

Thank you for the above link, abh. Very interesting and VERY long. I actually first read about hard-to-see focus points in some customer reviews of the 5D Mark iii. I asked an instructor this weekend after a photography workshop if he had experienced any problems with those on his 5d3 and he said absolutely not; he'd never heard of any problem. Seems like it's more a matter of me learning to use the camera (I'm ordering this week) than a major flaw.

Jan 21, 2013 at 12:27 AM

anthonygh
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p.2 #18 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

It's about now some one steps in and suggests a 7D..

Jan 21, 2013 at 12:41 AM

rolette
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p.2 #19 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

abh wrote:
pony girl wrote:
Has any sports shooter here had problems with the 5D3's focus points? I've done lots of reading about that camera lately, and that seems to be one of the negatives. As I'm tracking fast-moving horses in dim light, would I have trouble seeing focus points in AI Servo?

Is this the issue you're referring to?

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1099852/0

I hadn't even heard of this until your post send me searching. Does the 1D4 have the same issue?

No, the 1D4 doesn't have that issue. The 7D, 5D3 and 1DX do.

Jan 21, 2013 at 03:50 PM

Tenn.Jer
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p.2 #20 · Worth upgrading from Canon 1D Mark 2N to 1D Mark IV?

I have owned the 1DII, III, and currently own a IV; for the last couple of years it has served me well in what little sports shooting (indoor high school swimming) I do, and in all my bird and wildlife work...but, when I bought a 5DIII last summer, it has pretty much taken over. AF acquisition and tracking are superior, and there is a significant upgrade in high ISO handling - and I have to qualify that this is admittedly purely my perception, as there do not seem to be test results backing up my feelings in this regard...still, I can work with higher ISO's in dim pool conditions with better success. Maybe I'm better (or Lightroom is) at PP these days

...Frame rate hasn't mattered so far; I get six or eight shots going off the starting blocks instead of ten or twelve, but that just makes it easier to decide what to keep

...

I've run into the visibility of the focus points issue a couple of times, but the quick poke of a button will light 'em all up fast enough for my needs...

I've always seen the 1DIV as a great camera, and am sad to see it relegated to backup status...but the 5DIII seems to be a better one for my needs...

All that said, your dust issues COULD require the hardiness of a one-series camera, in which case I personally wouldn't consider anything other than a 1DIV; the mega-pixel difference alone would matter enough to me to pass on a 1DIII, regardless of better ISO & LCD. There are many adverse situations where I haven't tested the sealing of my 5DIII, and I don't think the occasional splashes at poolside are a real strain for it...

Good luck; of course I don't think either choice would be a mistake for you...
Jerry

Jan 21, 2013 at 05:36 PM

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