Home · Register · Search · View Winners · Software · Hosting · Software · Join Upload & Sell

Moderated by: Fred Miranda
Username   Password

  New fredmiranda.com Mobile Site
  New Feature: SMS Notification alert
  New Feature: Buy & Sell Watchlist
  

FM Forums | Alternative Gear & Lenses | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       3              5       6       end
  

Archive 2013 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0
  
 
michaelwatkins
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #1 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


I wonder how the new Sigma 35/1.4 would hold up in comparison with the others mentioned.


Jan 09, 2013 at 07:32 PM
charles.K
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #2 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


wayne seltzer wrote:
Its a different lens on a different camera type comparison which are more difficult since different camera rendering/sensor/colors etc. Including different strength AA filters possibly.


I agree here with Wayne!! It would be hard to separate the lens and sensor characteristics.

I think most people who now have the RX 1 are very happy with the IQ, and the Zeiss 35/2 Sonnar classic rendering. I feel there are similarities with the old 35 Cron Pre Asph and 35 Lux Pre Asph, but still sharp and a FF sensor that has a great DR, something I would not have thought possible about 6 months ago. Most who now have the RX 1, still have another cam system.

The only remotely similar test was from Christmas eve, shot with the RX 1 at 6400 ISO f/2.0 1/80s, and the M-M with the 35 Lux FLE at 2500 ISO f/1.4 1/60s. This may provide for some rendering comparisons.













Jan 10, 2013 at 12:59 AM
Makten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #3 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


Alright, I tried a little comparison between the RX1 and D700 with ZF 35/1.4 @ f/2. This is not very scientific and you have to take it for what it is, namely the effort I could possibly put into it while having a fever.

Both are shot at 1/80, ISO 200 on a tripod and developed identically in ACR. Which tells quite a lot about the sensors!

RX1:








ZF:








As you can see, the Sonnar is quite a lot wider than the ZF. Bokeh characteristics are very similar within 2/3 of the frame from the middle, including LCA. But towards the edges, the ZF is of course ahead with more blur, probably because of less mechanical vignetting.

Then look at how the sensors handle the light. The D700 is just blown away regarding the highlights, which means the RX1 is "less sensitive". At the same time, the RX1 is much better at high ISO speeds, so it's all evolution.

My conclusion is that the ZF 35/1.4 is better at this particular distance (~1 meter), but that the Sonnar is fantastic as it comes extremely close. The result is exactly what I expected from my experience with "real" images that I've taken with both.

If anyone knows a good host I'll upload the full images.



Jan 17, 2013 at 09:12 PM
zhangyue
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #4 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


The Bokeh is great for both. I feel RX1 seem have less exposure than D700, especially on left side: check shadow on wall and banana. Could it attributes highlight blow up in D700?

I can see a hint of purple at shadow of RX1. but could be my monitor or WB and your LR profile.



Jan 17, 2013 at 09:43 PM
Makten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #5 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


zhangyue wrote:
The Bokeh is great for both. I feel RX1 seem have less exposure than D700, especially on left side: check shadow on wall and banana. Could it attributes highlight blow up in D700?

I can see a hint of purple at shadow of RX1. but could be my monitor or WB and your LR profile.


Both cameras had the exact same exposure, so the difference in lightness is due to one of them (or both) claiming false ISO speeds. This is normal and I thought it was a good idea to show that also.
Regarding the colors, the RX1 clearly casts the corners and borders. I usually get rid of this with cornerfix, but here I wanted them to be treated equally. Vignetting is much worse on the RX1 as well, which makes the cast even more visible.

Edit: What I think is most important here is that the very small Sonnar can keep up so well with the Distagon, for allover image charachter including bokeh. It would be sensational if the Distagon wasn't better, and it of course is. But we're comparing a 0.5 kilo setup with a 2.0 kilo setup. Not bad, huh?



Jan 17, 2013 at 09:49 PM
alwang
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #6 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


Makten wrote:
As you can see, the Sonnar is quite a lot wider than the ZF. Bokeh characteristics are very similar within 2/3 of the frame from the middle, including LCA. But towards the edges, the ZF is of course ahead with more blur, probably because of less mechanical vignetting.

Then look at how the sensors handle the light. The D700 is just blown away regarding the highlights, which means the RX1 is "less sensitive". At the same time, the RX1 is much better at high ISO speeds, so it's all evolution.

My conclusion is that the ZF 35/1.4 is better at this
...Show more

Thanks for the test. I guess if you kept the same tripod position, the wider view could be explained by the entrance pupil being further back on the smaller RX1?

I don't really see the better bokeh towards the edges in the ZF that you speak of. I have to say, I actually prefer the RX1 rendering in this example, though it could just be because the ZF shot is overexposed.



Jan 17, 2013 at 09:53 PM
Makten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #7 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


alwang wrote:
Thanks for the test. I guess if you kept the same tripod position, the wider view could be explained by the entrance pupil being further back on the smaller RX1?


My guess is that it's actually a bit shorter than 35 mm, to allow the in-camera distortion correction when you shoot JPG. Maybe it's closer to 33 mm or so, but it doesn't matter to me.

I don't really see the better bokeh towards the edges in the ZF that you speak of. I have to say, I actually prefer the RX1 rendering in this example, though it could just be because the ZF shot is overexposed.


Look at the steel can to the left. There's a lot more blur in the ZF image there, which I think is due to the exit pupil being less obstructed. But I'm not sure.

I'd like to make the raws downloadable for anyone, so let me know if you can host them.



Jan 17, 2013 at 10:00 PM
zhangyue
Online
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #8 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


Makten wrote:
What I think is most important here is that the very small Sonnar can keep up so well with the Distagon, for allover image charachter including bokeh. It would be sensational if the Distagon wasn't better, and it of course is. But we're comparing a 0.5 kilo setup with a 2.0 kilo setup. Not bad, huh?


Agree. I am not surprised to see that based on limited RX1 images seen so far. I don't know though Distagon will be better than RX1 on stop down sharpness and cross frame WO performance.

Distgon's brick size is really a show stopper for me, especially at this popular focal length, you want carry it with you everywhere and leave on the camera all day.




Jan 17, 2013 at 10:21 PM
beautox
Offline

Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #9 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


I suspect that the reason there is more blur on the ZF is due to it's field curvature. This can be a positive thing in many situations!


Jan 18, 2013 at 01:41 AM
philip_pj
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #10 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


Before making more observations on this very iluminating comparisons, Makten, could you take a quick look at the ZF shot adjusted for exposure for us? I guess I want to know whether that image is more appealing presented at an equivalent tone range...it might show us more about the sensor contribution to final image appearance also.

A99 owners are reporting a significant improvement in DR over the a900, and I am seeing this as well. Also, the PV2012 used in ACR 7.n is well suited to this kind of soft roll-off, as Adobe took pains to give it a more film-like top end of the tonal scale. My hunch is the new sensor retains more colour integrity at equivalent points on the tone scale.






Jan 18, 2013 at 02:22 AM
 

Search in Used Dept. 



mirkoc
Offline
• • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #11 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


Could it be that RX1 lens isn't true F2? Being fixed to the camera can we really know weather ISO values are 'true'.
It will be interesting to see comparisons with other cams/lenses and see the amount of blur, although this is design dependent too.
I find RX1 rendering beautiful, by the way.



Jan 18, 2013 at 07:59 AM
h00ligan
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #12 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


I just shot this comparison today at f2 and f1. I need to redo it tomorrow. I made some mistakes.

5d2/35L vs rx1



Jan 18, 2013 at 08:28 AM
wayne seltzer
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #13 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0



The ZF 35/1.4 renders the metal pitcher with more blur due to its uncorrected SA design (like Softar filter). Soft beauty portrait type bokeh. The RX1 imho renders bokeh more like C/Y 35/1.4 except the transition from in focus to OOF is much slower and smoother. RX1 sharpness across the frame is excellent even WO. The RX1 has non-round bokeh circles (cat's eyes) due to ratio of entrance pupil to exit pupil and maybe short distance from last element to sensor. And ZF 35/1.4 with uncorrected SA should have onion type bokeh circles where the luminosity across the bokeh circle is not uniform.


Makten wrote:
My guess is that it's actually a bit shorter than 35 mm, to allow the in-camera distortion correction when you shoot JPG. Maybe it's closer to 33 mm or so, but it doesn't matter to me.

Look at the steel can to the left. There's a lot more blur in the ZF image there, which I think is due to the exit pupil being less obstructed. But I'm not sure.

I'd like to make the raws downloadable for anyone, so let me know if you can host them.




Jan 18, 2013 at 10:08 AM
Makten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #14 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0





This doesn't make sense.

#1: Of course there are no lenses "uncorrected" for SA, since they would be completely useless.
#2: The ZF 35/1.4 is very sharp wide open.
#3: If you look at the blur in the middle, its very much the same in relation to the magnification of both lenses.
#4: The ZF 35/1.4 actually has a harder edge to the blur discs, which means overcorrected for SA compared to the Sonnar.

Mechanical vignetting (cats eye effect) will make DOF larger in the corners, which is exactly what I said in my last post.



Jan 18, 2013 at 12:19 PM
Jman13
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #15 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


It's basically impossible to test ISO equivalence with different lenses because we don't know the true mechanical aperture size, and we don't know the transmission value of the lenses. This can make a BIG difference. When I compared my 1Ds II to the GH2 for ISO equivalence, with the Sigma 50/1.4 on the 1Ds II and the PL 25/1.4 on the GH2, the GH2 measured about a full half stop darker. However, shooting the same framing with the same lens (in this case, the OM 50/3.5 Macro), yielded nearly identical exposure, with the 1Ds II maybe being 1/6 stop brighter. So, transmission losses or such can make a big difference.


Jan 18, 2013 at 12:26 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #16 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


Makten wrote:
#1: Of course there are no lenses "uncorrected" for SA, since they would be completely useless.


I suppose Wayne meant undercorrected. I am not sure that it is correct, but at least it makes sense as a hypothesis

#2: The ZF 35/1.4 is very sharp wide open.

My copy I wouldn't describe as being "very" sharp wide open, but it is certainly as sharp as any other fast 35 I have tried, except the Leica 35 Summilux-R in the centre. Perhaps this is because you are using a D700, and I am using a D800...

In this example, I prefer the look of the ZF, but the RX is very close, and the exposure is better. For visually equal exposures, I would probably prefer the ZF even more.

When your fever is gone and your fingertips are too painful to use your Gibson, I would be interested in seeing boke samples wide open or f/2 at maybe 3-5 and 5-10m, if you feel like it.



Jan 18, 2013 at 01:29 PM
Makten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #17 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


carstenw wrote:
My copy I wouldn't describe as being "very" sharp wide open, but it is certainly as sharp as any other fast 35 I have tried, except the Leica 35 Summilux-R in the centre. Perhaps this is because you are using a D700, and I am using a D800...


I'm really not judging sharpness at a pixel level, so I don't think it matters much. If I scale the RX1 shot down to 12 mpix they are about equal at f/2.

In this example, I prefer the look of the ZF, but the RX is very close, and the exposure is better. For visually equal exposures, I would probably prefer the ZF even more.

Yeah, the blown highlights doesn't matter and the RX1 should be pushed a bit more. I think it would look more pleasing overall just by being brighter. Though, I like the colors from the D700 better. Look at the wooden thing on the right for example.

When your fever is gone and your fingertips are too painful to use your Gibson, I would be interested in seeing boke samples wide open or f/2 at maybe 3-5 and 5-10m, if you feel like it.

Unfortunately my apartment is very small, so if there should be any distant background to blur, I'll have to go outside. And its pretty cold today!

http://www.smhi.se/vadret/vadret-i-sverige/land/fiveDaysForecast.do?geonameid=2673730



Jan 18, 2013 at 01:37 PM
carstenw
Offline
• • • • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #18 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


-10, pah. Once I went to university in Waterloo, Ontario in -50 effective

I was wearing several layers of everything, including long-johns and socks, a pair of Sorels and a balaclava, and my breath was escaping out through the little crack between face and balaclava between the bridge of my nose and my cheek, and freezing my eyelashes shut every 50m or so, so I would have to take a glove off and melt my eyes open again with my fingers. When I got there, it was closed, and I walked home again

IIRC it was uphill both ways.



Jan 18, 2013 at 01:47 PM
Makten
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: Off
p.2 #19 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


carstenw wrote:
-10, pah. Once I went to university in Waterloo, Ontario in -50 effective

I was wearing several layers of everything, including long-johns and socks, a pair of Sorels and a balaclava, and my breath was escaping out through the little crack between face and balaclava between the bridge of my nose and my cheek, and freezing my eyelashes shut every 50m or so, so I would have to take a glove off and melt my eyes open again with my fingers. When I got there, it was closed, and I walked home again

IIRC it was uphill both ways.




It has fallen to -18C now, but I really don't mind the cold. But perhaps not the best weather for camera testning even if I wasn't sick. I must say that many people over here are completely nuts though, going out without gloves or cap in these temperatures is only silly. Don't know if they try to prove something or if they are just stupid.



Jan 18, 2013 at 05:30 PM
CVickery
Offline
• • • •
Upload & Sell: On
p.2 #20 · RX1 bokeh vs other cams/lens at F/2.0


carstenw wrote:
-10, pah. Once I went to university in Waterloo, Ontario in -50 effective

I was wearing several layers of everything, including long-johns and socks, a pair of Sorels and a balaclava, and my breath was escaping out through the little crack between face and balaclava between the bridge of my nose and my cheek, and freezing my eyelashes shut every 50m or so, so I would have to take a glove off and melt my eyes open again with my fingers. When I got there, it was closed, and I walked home again

IIRC it was uphill both ways.


I went to the UofW as well....Carsten's not kidding



Jan 18, 2013 at 07:29 PM
1      
2
       3              5       6       end




FM Forums | Alternative Gear & Lenses | Join Upload & Sell

1      
2
       3              5       6       end
    
 

You are not logged in. Login or Register

Username   Password    Retrive password