T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

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anthonygh
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p.3 #1 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

PS To above..I eventually (recently) bought a 5D so that I had a reserve DSLR should the 40D fail (lost count of the number of shoots I have done with it..each with a few hundred exposures). I had basically decided to get another 40D.....but decided to get a 5D so that I could swap lenses with my 1V and not need to change composition.....and because the 5D was clearly real value for money / IQ in th FF market.

And ..doing pro work...I bought what did the job for the best price....I could have bought any Canon body I wanted..a couple of them...but why waste money?

Jan 08, 2013 at 04:00 AM

WestFalcon
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p.3 #2 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

I have taught photography(had a camera club too) and taught high school for 40 years. I think I know kids and they would love the T4i technology much better than the 5D......Touch screen, built in flash, higher ISO capability and most kids don't enlarge over 8x10 anyway. I don't think its even a contest here...T4i hands down for the modern HS kid.....I'm not saying it produces better files, I'm saying that I think from my experience that kids would like it much better and it is a quality camera....probably smaller too. I'd get the 18-55IS kit lens and he can grow into something else later on or use your lenses....

Jan 08, 2013 at 04:35 AM

anthonygh
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p.3 #3 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

WestFalcon wrote:
I have taught photography(had a camera club too) and taught high school for 40 years. I think I know kids and they would love the T4i technology much better than the 5D......Touch screen, built in flash, higher ISO capability and most kids don't enlarge over 8x10 anyway. I don't think its even a contest here...T4i hands down for the modern HS kid.....I'm not saying it produces better files, I'm saying that I think from my experience that kids would like it much better and it is a quality camera....probably smaller too. I'd get the 18-55IS kit lens and he can grow into something else later on or use your lenses....

I basically agree..but think the 40D is a better bet as it is tougher and cheaper...but too many gimmicks detract from the image making process so would avoid anything that is merging with a smart phone...

Jan 08, 2013 at 04:42 AM

Paul Mo
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p.3 #4 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

It would be most beneficial to learn manual photography first.

I agree the gimmicks could detract from ISO, aperture and shutter speed (chosen exposure; over/under), composition and point of focus.

Have them make 500 acceptably 'great' images manually, and then give them a 'modern' camera like a T4i.

Jan 08, 2013 at 09:27 AM

twistedlim
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p.3 #5 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

I would let him stay with film if he does not want the 5d. Let him save up and buy the stuff himself. He will have to do the research and make the same decisions we have all had to make. This process alone is important as he will discover the pros and cons of each lens and how it works with the body as well as how each part of the equipment effects the final shot. Take the hands off approach on this one. There is no way I would get him an expensive zoom or body when he could spend a year learning with a 5d and 50 1.8 and be light years ahead of a zoom on a minolta film body. I agree he should really learn the ins and outs of photoshop etc. but it has to be on a "need to know" basis. Unless he wants to learn somethiing the drive will not be there for him.

Jan 08, 2013 at 11:49 AM

Paul Mo
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p.3 #6 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

twistedlim wrote:
I agree he should really learn the ins and outs of photoshop etc.

Lightroom would be sufficient. He could learn categorizing, tagging, reasonable PP and exporting to the 'net for his mates to see.

bokap wrote:
, a used 5D for about $500.... I have some EF lenses so that's not a factor.

EF, not EF-S? Then get a used 5D from a seemingly genuine seller. They are the bargain of the century, and when coupled with a good L lens (or equivalent), have fantastic IQ.

Jan 08, 2013 at 01:09 PM

convergent
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p.3 #7 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

I would go with the T4i for a teen... its going to have more modern features, video, etc. At that age, he's not going to be settled on where he is going with photography, and it is also going to be a more fun camera to use. The other thing effecting my recommendation is that the 5Dc has a sensor that is a dust magnet. I've had a dozen different DSLR bodies, and only one did I ever have noticeable dust spots on my images, and with the 5Dc is was a lot of images and often. I ended up having to learn to clean the sensor on that camera.

Jan 08, 2013 at 01:32 PM

Paul Mo
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p.3 #8 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

But the T4i is a crappier camera. If they want to learn photography the 5DC would go a long way.

Jan 08, 2013 at 01:40 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #9 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

Paul Mo wrote:
But the T4i is a crappier camera. If they want to learn photography the 5DC would go a long way.

In objective terms, neither the specific claim ("4ti is a crappier camera") nor the general conclusion that a beginner will go farther starting with the original 5D stand up to scrutiny in the context we are talking about here.

Paul Mo wrote:
It would be most beneficial to learn manual photography first.

I agree the gimmicks could detract from ISO, aperture and shutter speed (chosen exposure; over/under), composition and point of focus.

Have them make 500 acceptably 'great' images manually, and then give them a 'modern' camera like a T4i.

I've also taught in the arts field for some decades, so I think I also know a bit about how young students learn. (Though mine are college age.)

The notion that learning should be based on depriving the student of both fun and flexibility is an old-school notion that seems to stubbornly stick around for reasons I can't quite figure out. (Though there are elements of the higher education world who cling to it.)

The fact is that restricting students by telling them they cannot use tools that they already know about, that everyone uses, and which are just darned useful and creative tools... until they "master" the use of some arbitrarily limited subset of the tools is a recipe for discouraging them. In the majority of cases, the precise opposite approach often works beautifully, and it mirrors the way that the majority of students (and adults) actually learn. Rather than fully mastering some very limited set of skills, learners often prefer to plunge into a thing and experiment and engage in "productive play."

If you give 20 kinds fully manual cameras with restricted functionality and give another 20 kids some sort of fun and versatile (though not expensive) camera, the latter group will generally become more enthusiastic about photography and among them there will be a larger number who become so passionate about and engaged by the medium that they eventually seek out information about how to shoot manually and much more.

Take care,

Dan

(slightly edited after the fact)

Edited on Jan 08, 2013 at 04:25 PM · View previous versions

Jan 08, 2013 at 01:52 PM

Gunzorro
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p.3 #10 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

OP -- Get the T4i, for either or both of you.

I like Dan's suggestion of the kit 18-55 for your son, and add the 60/2.8 macro if you want added IQ and versatility.

My story is that I owned the 5D for a long time as my primary camera (coming from a 20D). Then bought the T2i shortly after it came out. The 5D was relegated to strictly assignment work as it was completely trustworthy (and boring). The T2i (with added grip) with the 60 macro was used for personal work/video and comprehensive testing of oil paint pigments and brands I was posting on several painting forums. The T2i with 60mm blew the 5D out of the water for resolution, fine detail and all the other tech advances like LV. I eventually switched to 60D for the ergonomics mainly. It wasn't until I got a 1Ds2, and later a 5D2, that I swung back to full frame for almost all my uses.

You can get a great, low mileage 5D right now -- mine is on the B&S board. But for me, I'd by a T4i. But that's me.

Jan 08, 2013 at 03:07 PM

Paul Mo
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p.3 #11 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

gdanmitchell wrote:
Paul Mo wrote:
But the T4i is a crappier camera. If they want to learn photography the 5DC would go a long way.

In objective terms, neither the specific claim ("4ti is a crappier camera") nor the general conclusion that a beginner will go farther starting with the original 5D stand up to scrutiny in the context we are talking about here.

Paul Mo wrote:
It would be most beneficial to learn manual photography first.

I agree the gimmicks could detract from ISO, aperture and shutter speed (chosen exposure; over/under), composition and point of focus.

Have them make 500 acceptably 'great' images manually, and then give them a 'modern' camera like a T4i.

I've also taught in the arts field for some decades, so I think I also know a bit about how young students learn. (Though mine are college age.)

The notion that learning should be based on depriving the student of both fun and flexibility is an old-school notion...

The fact is that restricting students by telling them they cannot use tools that they already know about, that everyone uses, and which are just darned useful and creative tools... until they "master" the use of some arbitrarily limited subset of the tools is a recipe for discouraging them...

Take care,

Dan

The crappier comment was made with the intention of 'paring back' and understanding fundamentals: glass, iso, aperture, shutter speed, subject choice, and composition. No touch screens or 1080p.

I was being stringent, and a tad flippant, with regards to the '500 images' comment. But you know what I mean, as I understand what you are saying.

Call me old school if you like but I believe that with a FF camera and a good piece of glass coupled with careful mentoring, respect and awe for the practice of photography (art history, history of photography) most students would respond well.

Jan 08, 2013 at 03:17 PM

bokap
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p.3 #12 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

OP here. Just want to clarify things. My son told me on Sunday he does not want a 5D. He likes using my T4i when he wants to use something other than the film Minolta. On the Minolta he does not learn ISO, the class he is in uses 100 ASA film so all he knows is the ASA needs to be set at 100. The camera was from 1970 so he has to manual focus and use the light meter in the camera which I am always reminding him to check. He really prefers my camera, when he uses it, he shoots in P mode, does not care about background blur, but he is is interested in the composition of the shot which he is learning in school. He likes the auto focus, likes to be able to switch to the movie mode, and the IQ is great.
On the other hand, I grew up on film, for years shot with an Om1 and then OM2 system, before using a digital camera, I had a Minolta film scanner that I enjoyed using. When I bought my first digital, which was Canon D30, I sold off my OM2, lenses and film scanner which I now regret. It would be a lot of fun for my son. I have always used crop cameras, and after reading all the comments would like to try full frame for myself if I find a good deal on one. I am not convinced the IQ of a 5D would be better than my T4i, which is really good. I need to try full frame and see for myself, but I want to wait and get a good price in case I decide the T4i is better and I want to sell the 5D.

Jan 08, 2013 at 03:52 PM

martines34
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p.3 #13 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

I have been following this discussion from the beginning.

My observation is that I see a father doing all the work of the decision making.

At what age are you going to make your son do his own research?

Personally, I feel that your son will benefit more from getting on the FM board and ask his own questions and then bounce those suggestions off of you, the father, for your input

He has to learn how to manage his own money and make his own mistakes or he won't benefit from the experience.

I'm not trying to start a war. I'm just making an observation and suggestion. I think your son will benefit more by doing his own homework and then ask you for some direction.

Jan 08, 2013 at 03:59 PM

Paul Mo
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p.3 #14 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

martines34 wrote:
I have been following this discussion from the beginning.

My observation is that I see a father doing all the work of the decision making.

At what age are you going to make your son do his own research?

Personally, I feel that your son will benefit more from getting on the FM board and ask his own questions and then bounce those suggestions off of you, the father, for your input

He has to learn how to manage his own money and make his own mistakes or he won't benefit from the experience.

I'm not trying to start a war. I'm just making an observation and suggestion. I think your son will benefit more by doing his own homework and then ask you for some direction.

Great points!

Jan 08, 2013 at 04:06 PM

bokap
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p.3 #15 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

How am I doing the decision making. All along I have stated my son has said he does not want a 5D, that he likes using my 4Ti, that he wants to continue with his photography class using my old Minolta film camera. There have been endless posts about what is best for a young photographer but my son has stated what he wants. I on the other hand am still thinking whether or not to buy a cheap 5D or not.

Jan 08, 2013 at 06:05 PM

gdanmitchell
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p.3 #16 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

bokap wrote:
How am I doing the decision making. All along I have stated my son has said he does not want a 5D, that he likes using my 4Ti, that he wants to continue with his photography class using my old Minolta film camera. There have been endless posts about what is best for a young photographer but my son has stated what he wants. I on the other hand am still thinking whether or not to buy a cheap 5D or not.

I wasn't going to say anything, but (as a parent who brought up three kids) I think you are handling this just fine. I suspect that some folks fired off a comment without understanding what actually has happened here.

Take care,

Dan

Jan 08, 2013 at 08:15 PM

bokap
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p.3 #17 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

Thanks Dan

Jan 08, 2013 at 08:26 PM

bokap
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p.3 #18 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

OP here. I bought a 5D a few days ago. $500 with the mirror fix and about 30,000 activations. Have to say I really like it. Have been using my 85 1.8 lens with it. I did some shots up and down the block with my daughter yesterday and got quite a few really nice photos. The only thing I don't like is it is hard to see the settings in the sun. I may eventually sell my T4i and EF-S lenses and the 5D and use the money to buy a 5DII.

Jan 20, 2013 at 08:22 PM

Kisutch
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p.3 #19 · T4i or 5D for 15 yr. old

I would get a earlier rebel and spend the difference on something else. I don't shoot full frame, but from trying my friends 5d2, I certainly don't see differences that would affect the learning process. For me, getting Lightroom made the biggest difference--being able to tweak sliders and see how it changes the image.

Jan 21, 2013 at 03:31 PM

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