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amlsml
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p.1 #1 · Need some BBall Help thanks

Shooting for the school and they want photos for their parents and for tourney sales. Shot a few warm up games last night and was disappointed in the result. Shot my D3s and 200 f2 and D3s with 70-200 2.8. Set a CWB using an expo disc . Need ISO 8000-10,000 to get shutter over 500. Shot most of games from 500- 1000. Most images are either OOF and soft. Here are a few of the bad ones and 2 of the OK ones. Would you just "strobe" this gym, or should I expect a whole lot less keepers when shooting B-ball?

if I do Strobe, with my speed lights, is there any reason why I can't put them both behind the baseline, at my back, in the corners aimed at the key? I sat under the basket for most of the game. Thanks for the help. The Gym is all white on the walls and the ceilings and they light it with pendant style Haylides of CF

2013 © amlsml

NIKON D3S 200 mm f/2.5 1/400 sec 10000 ISO 0.0 EV

2013 © amlsml

NIKON D3S 200 mm f/2.5 1/640 sec 10000 ISO 0.0 EV

2013 © amlsml

NIKON D3S 200 mm f/2.5 1/1000 sec 10000 ISO 0.0 EV

2013 © amlsml

the best of the bunch but not great
NIKON D3S 200 mm f/2.5 1/640 sec 10000 ISO 0.0 EV

Dec 28, 2012 at 03:53 PM

friscoron
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p.1 #2 · Need some BBall Help thanks

I'm probably not a lot of help as I don't often shoot sports, but I'm just really surprised that you had to go to 10k ISO in a basketball gym. I presume it's poorly lit? The last time I shot a HS basketball game with my D700 and 70-200 f/2.8, I was shoot at 1/640 and 1/800 at 2.8 and an ISO of around 1600-2000, as I recall.

A lot of shooters do use the strobes like you mentioned, and I'm sure they'll jump on here to give you better details on that. What AF are you using here?

Dec 28, 2012 at 04:29 PM

Paulthelefty
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p.1 #3 · Need some BBall Help thanks

I will also ask what AF are you using... Although I am a Canon shooter so not very good with the Nikon stuff.

Also, if you are at f2, you don't have any room for error, and in fact you will be going out of focus on a face if you shoot the chest of a forward leaning player if they are close to you.

HS gyms are always a crap shoot (literally and figuratively). I am usually at ISO 6400 to get 1/500 around here. I am pleasantly surprised to get ISO 3200 and keep the shutter at 1/500. I just get what I can with the knowledge it is better than anything an average parent can get even with a good camera. I have talked about strobes with some other local photographers, but nobody is doing it right now in my area.

Most sports shooters will tell you strobing is a pain, and many will tell you it is not wort the effort. Others swear by it. If you do strobe, make sure you do it safely! No picture is worth a player getting impaled by a stand or a spectator needing stitches on their scalp. And I haven't even touched on liability...

Good luck,
Paul

Dec 28, 2012 at 04:57 PM

dankopp
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p.1 #4 · Need some BBall Help thanks

I'm a Canon guy, but I bet you can get better pictures with the D3 without strobes. The shutter speed is too low for the first one. I wouldn't shoot boys HS below 1/640. The WB is off on the second one (the walls are pink) but good for the other three. I see that for some of them you were using auto exposure. Were they exposed properly in the camera or does this reflect a bunch of post-processing?

I'm not saying not to use strobes, by the way.

Dec 28, 2012 at 05:04 PM

amlsml
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p.1 #5 · Need some BBall Help thanks

thanks, these are all SOOC. I set a CWB the best i could with a grey card, No post processing yet, I needed 8000-10k to get over 500 shutter, I have insurance, and approval to strobe if I wish, Shot most of these at 2.5. All of these are with the 200 f2. All were shot in Aperture Priority

Dec 28, 2012 at 05:19 PM

1adam-12
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p.1 #6 · Need some BBall Help thanks

Paulthelefty wrote:
I will also ask what AF are you using... Although I am a Canon shooter so not very good with the Nikon stuff.

Also, if you are at f2, you don't have any room for error, and in fact you will be going out of focus on a face if you shoot the chest of a forward leaning player if they are close to you.

HS gyms are always a crap shoot (literally and figuratively). I am usually at ISO 6400 to get 1/500 around here. I am pleasantly surprised to get ISO 3200 and keep the shutter at 1/500. I just get what I can with the knowledge it is better than anything an average parent can get even with a good camera. I have talked about strobes with some other local photographers, but nobody is doing it right now in my area.

Most sports shooters will tell you strobing is a pain, and many will tell you it is not wort the effort. Others swear by it. If you do strobe, make sure you do it safely! No picture is worth a player getting impaled by a stand or a spectator needing stitches on their scalp. And I haven't even touched on liability...

Good luck,
Paul

Paul,

I too shot my first HS basketball game last night... with a canon 5dm3... I took shot a lot at f/2.8 and noticed the same thing the original poster is stating... one quick question for you... WHAT aperture would be the best to lessen the risk of having out of focus shot... ie shoot the body and the face is OOF

thanks in advance...Dave

Dec 28, 2012 at 05:25 PM

Trevorma
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p.1 #7 · Need some BBall Help thanks

one quick question for you... WHAT aperture would be the best to lessen the risk of having out of focus shot... ie shoot the body and the face is OOF

http://www.dofmaster.com/dofjs.html

The link above is a simple depth of field calculator. Gives you a good idea of what aperture at a given distance you need to get the whole player in focus.

As for the strobes. I typically set up 6 SB-910's. The gym I shoot in the bleachers can retract and the gym can be divided in to three section with a "curtain" that is dropped from the ceiling. When the University teams are playing the bleachers are out and the curtains retract to the ceiling. I mount one flash on each end of the two curtains, set them to 1/4 power and 50mm zoom. Another two are mounted on opposite corners of the curtain and bounced towards centre court.

5 pocketwizard plus III's, 6 flashes and a D3s and I am at 1/250th, f4, and since everything is bounced the harsh shadows are gone (or very minimal)

Trevor

Dec 28, 2012 at 05:50 PM

Carl Auer
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p.1 #8 · Need some BBall Help thanks

Do not shoot aperture priority. Shoot manual. Then you do not risk your camera deciding you need a slower shutter speed than you actually need. Set your camera to 1/640th and f2.0-2.8 and whatever ISO you need for that lighting. As for the softness, what is your focusing set to...make sure it is continuous and do not use ALL of the focus points.

As for the flashes, get them up. mount them high if you can, like up in the bleachers, and point them towards mid court and at 1/4 power you will probably be around ISO 800 with a decent recycle time. You will probably need PW's as I do not know how good the wireless flash system for Nikon is. But you will be limited to half the court, unless you place a third flash at the top of the bleachers in the middle pointing it down the court at the other basket, then you should be able to shoot the whole court.

Dec 28, 2012 at 06:20 PM

amlsml
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p.1 #9 · Need some BBall Help thanks

trevor, can you post a few images from your games? are you still cranking your ISO, and can you stop action at 250. why not FP and get the shutter to 640-1000? Appreciate the info.

Carl I have Sb 800's and TT5 and a TT1 on camera. I have been experimenting at TTL around 50MM. I also plan on Bouncing the flash since the gym is all white. I only have my center focus point and on continuous. thanks

Dec 28, 2012 at 06:36 PM

Marty Bingham
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p.1 #10 · Need some BBall Help thanks

First, what you have here ain't that bad, with the exception of #3 which isn't equipment related.

Second, with the equipment you have there's no reason to have exposure/focus problems. Do like Carl says and shoot manual then kill all your focus points but one.

Third, again, if you aren't getting technically great shots with a D3s and 200mm f2, it is very likely you just need more practice.

Thanks,
Marty

Dec 28, 2012 at 06:51 PM

Paulthelefty
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p.1 #11 · Need some BBall Help thanks

Carl Auer wrote:
Do not shoot aperture priority. Shoot manual.

This! And Carl has the strobe thing down, so take his advice! Every gym is going to be different, so you have to experiment a little also.

Think of the gym as your studio. Light it and get your settings, then lock it down. Don't let the camera try to figure it out shot by shot.

I use TTL with my speedlight on camera when I am shooting wrestling under a single light. The distance to subject can be double or more from one shot to the next, so TTL is magic for me. I don't have the wireless set ups for strobing a gym (yet), and haven't decided if it is worth it to be the guinea pig in my area. Not to mention cost effective...

And as far as freezing action, google flash duration. The slowest speed light is probably faster than 1/500 at its worst setting, and 1/100000 when you get to a faster setting. IIRC, speed lights are faster when powered down, and most studio strobes are opposite. einsteins are one notable exception.
Paul

Dec 28, 2012 at 07:15 PM

Carl Auer
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p.1 #12 · Need some BBall Help thanks

forget TTL for basketball. If you set up strobes correctly, you should have an even exposure and not need to have the light giving more or less power. I am only a fan of TTL exposure for portraits and not for action. Plus, TTL can end up screwing up your exposure much like Aperture Priority can. Set the flashes to 1/4 power, and if that is not enough bump it to 1/2 power.

Dec 28, 2012 at 09:00 PM

Scott Sewell
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p.1 #13 · Need some BBall Help thanks

I'm all for using strobes if they're absolutely necessary, but I'm not sure that's the case here. There are too many other variables that the OP hasn't clarified that could help explain why these images aren't sharp. Like using Av mode...not knowing what focus point(s) are being used...questions about DOF. I'm afraid throwing strobes into the mix is getting ahead of the basics of exposure and basketball photography, Let's face it, these are ISO TEN FREAKIN' THOUSAND!!!

As Carl has mentioned, get the exposure basics down first. In MANUAL mode. Use center point focus only. AI servo. Continuous mode. Shoot tight. Come back and post your next batch of images and we'll see what issues you might have then.

Dec 29, 2012 at 05:21 AM

amlsml
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p.1 #14 · Need some BBall Help thanks

Guys, Thanks for the help, went out yesterday and shot 3 games. The first is No flash. Set camera to Manual, dialed in 2.8 , 640-800 shutter and needed an ISO of 12,800 for an even exposure. Single, center point only, continuous and tried to only shoot near court. I was sitting on the floor, halfway between the basket and the Out of bounds line. I set a custom white balance using the expodisc. I realize there is much more to shooting basketball, then the settings, and I do not blame the equipment but 12,800? I find the entire gallery, noisy, soft, cycling lights and underexposed. I will post some of my flash attempts that was an abomination to sports shooting.!

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cropped, straightened, noise and exposure tweak
NIKON D3S 140 mm f/2.8 1/640 sec 12800 ISO 0.0 EV

2013 © amlsml

sooc nothing done for comparison
NIKON D3S 200 mm f/2.8 1/800 sec 12800 ISO 0.0 EV

Dec 29, 2012 at 03:26 PM

mdalby
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p.1 #15 · Need some BBall Help thanks

Carl,

You don't use TTL for strobing football where the subject distance can change significantly?

Dec 29, 2012 at 04:24 PM

Scott Sewell
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p.1 #16 · Need some BBall Help thanks

IMO this second set is significantly better than the first in terms of sharpness and exposure. I'm still puzzled why you have a couple at 1/640 and a couple at 1/800. I'd set the exposure and leave it alone (unless you're turning the camera away from action to shoot crowd and cheerleaders where you might have to make adjustments). I shoot D1 hoops at 1/640, so I'm not going to buy the argument that you can't sharp HS images at that same shutter speed. You can.

Now you can start working on capturing peak action, cropping (shoot tight first!), and sharing your best of the best. Keep shooting and posting!!

Dec 29, 2012 at 05:41 PM

amlsml
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p.1 #17 · Need some BBall Help thanks

Scott, would you use flash on a gym like this if your settings were like this? 2.8 640 iso 12,800 on other end 10,000? I took your advice and shot 3 more games yesterday and wasn't happy with sharpness or exposure. i will post a few later thanks

Dec 30, 2012 at 10:50 PM

basehorhonda
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p.1 #18 · Need some BBall Help thanks

I agree, your second set is better than your first.

I am also all about strobing a gym for anything and everything. It just takes time to play around with it and figure it out. Ive screwed up a ton of shots when I was figuring out doing it in my home gym. Heck I still do sometimes. Just pratice pratice pratice.

Dec 31, 2012 at 03:27 PM

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