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Archive 2012 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?
  
 
jhinkey
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p.3 #1 · p.3 #1 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


itai195 wrote:
If I can get a better design with integrated AS mount from RRS for about the same price, why on earth would I buy the Nikon product instead? At any rate, I'm still not really sure this lens truly needs a collar.


I guess you just illuminated my question - it appears that you can/will get (and expect) a lot more for the same price if you value those things.

I will certainly buy a collar for mine as it will make it's use much much easier.

John



Jan 21, 2013 at 10:05 PM
M635_Guy
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p.3 #2 · p.3 #2 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


If I get one, I'm absolutely getting the RRS collar for the same money as Nikon. In addition to saving me the money for a AS foot, it will almost certainly be better-made...


Jan 21, 2013 at 10:38 PM
jhinkey
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p.3 #3 · p.3 #3 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


FYI - The 70-200/4 RT-1 collar is now $170 at B&H - nice to see the price getting more towards reasonable territory. Perhaps those $40 e-bay versions have put some pricing pressure on Nikon . . .

EDIT - I may grab one of these as I need one in the next few weeks and can't wait for RRS unless it will be out in a week or so. Any new updates on when they will have their version out?



Jan 22, 2013 at 12:16 AM
Loren E
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p.3 #4 · p.3 #4 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


When someone guinea-pigs for an ebay $35 version I hope they post their findings on here!


Jan 22, 2013 at 07:55 PM
jhinkey
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p.3 #5 · p.3 #5 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Loren E wrote:
When someone guinea-pigs for an ebay $35 version I hope they post their findings on here!


I'm tempted just to get one now and see if it's adequate in the short term while considering the full Nikon version or the RRS version.

Besides, if I don't like it I'm sure someone will buy it off me for $20 or so . . .

John



Jan 22, 2013 at 08:34 PM
Zebrabot
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p.3 #6 · p.3 #6 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


sjms wrote:
that would then be a commitment to a specific clamping system. that will not happen. they will remain as generic as possible in this situation


arca swiss rails are the most generic mount there even is. It's also what any decent to higher end sytem uses anyways. Leave it with a flat bottom and threaded holes and nobody will even even notice the dovetails if they're using some bogus plastic QR tripod plates.

Oh wait, that would make sense, so nikon has to avoid that.

Glennview can convert your existing feet for some models:

http://www.glennview.com/35.htm (scroll to the long lense section.)



Jan 23, 2013 at 12:58 AM
M635_Guy
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p.3 #7 · p.3 #7 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Zebrabot wrote:
arca swiss rails are the most generic mount there even is. It's also what any decent to higher end system uses anyways. Leave it with a flat bottom and threaded holes and nobody will even even notice the dovetails if they're using some bogus plastic QR tripod plates.

Oh wait, that would make sense, so nikon has to avoid that.


I think the folks at Manfrotto would notice, and take issue with the statement I highlighted (though I agree with you - I'm a very happy A/S guy).

It isn't Nikon's job or interest to endorse a particular clamp platform. They run the risk of building a whole system around that only to have something better come along.



Jan 23, 2013 at 02:08 AM
sjms
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p.3 #8 · p.3 #8 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Zebrabot wrote:
arca swiss rails are the most generic mount there even is. It's also what any decent to higher end sytem uses anyways. Leave it with a flat bottom and threaded holes and nobody will even even notice the dovetails if they're using some bogus plastic QR tripod plates.

Oh wait, that would make sense, so nikon has to avoid that.

Glennview can convert your existing feet for some models:

http://www.glennview.com/35.htm (scroll to the long lense section.)


evidently not so much. I live in the NYC area and don't see as many as assumed. I work and pool with lots of shooters. I travel around the world and maybe 15-20% I see is AS based in my travels. now this is overall eyeballing while working kinda stuff. even may pro users still just screw it into the base on long lenses.



Jan 23, 2013 at 03:28 AM
Zebrabot
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p.3 #9 · p.3 #9 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


M635_Guy wrote:
I think the folks at Manfrotto would notice, and take issue with the statement I highlighted (though I agree with you - I'm a very happy A/S guy).

It isn't Nikon's job or interest to endorse a particular clamp platform. They run the risk of building a whole system around that only to have something better come along.


Manfrotto doesn't know what they're doing either. How many dozens of incompatible plates do they have now?

The only system where you can mix and match anything is with products that are acra swiss-ish. Note the -ish part as every maker has their on spin on how it should work, but all the parts fit together.

I have a whatever was cheapest mix of Acratech (my favorite by far even though their stuff has some dumb flaws they've still not corrected) Kirk and Novoflex. All the parts fit and play nicely with each other. There's some other random stuff like a bracket from Stroboframe, which has a relic proprietary dovetail on the bottom. I can go out and get Strobrofram branded plates OR mill that bitch into arca swiss dimensions and have not have to worry about stand-out dead-ended systems from one company.

Nikon on the other hand is "neutral" by offering stupid stuff like single 1/4x20 threads on tripod feet for 6.5 pound lenses. Unless you take a grade 8 bolt and torque that lense into a solid block of granite, it's going to flex, get loose and fall off.

Again, a personal message to the person/team at Nikon who designs telephoto lense feet. You're an idiot, and you bring shame to Nikon. Quit now.











Jan 23, 2013 at 07:06 AM
sjms
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p.3 #10 · p.3 #10 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Zebrabot wrote:
Manfrotto doesn't know what they're doing either. How many dozens of incompatible plates do they have now?

The only system where you can mix and match anything is with products that are acra swiss-ish. Note the -ish part as every maker has their on spin on how it should work, but all the parts fit together.

I have a whatever was cheapest mix of Acratech (my favorite by far even though their stuff has some dumb flaws they've still not corrected) Kirk and Novoflex. All the parts fit and play nicely with each other. There's some other random stuff like a bracket
...Show more

it's an opinion like many others.

as to the mechanics of the situation you need to look at the whole design not just a single portion of it. for the most part that single 1/4-20 bolt design has worked for all makers. your concentration on Nikon foot leads me to believe you don't look to far since the rest are essentially mechanically the same.

look at the 70-200/2.8 design. it relies on a single attach point foot attached to a wedge shoe clamp attached to a plate that is attached to the ring via 4 quite small fine thread screws. these screws hold well but the wedge plate (lens side) has been known to occasionally deform in use as mine has. it has been replaced once by a Nikon part and now has an RRS reinforced version in place and hasn't budged.

Nikon as with all companies design these parts for general usage population. for the more challenging usage there are luckily other sources. these sources optimize their product to a certain market and functionality. but they are not in reality necessary unless you actually need/want them.


Edited on Jan 23, 2013 at 02:25 PM · View previous versions



Jan 23, 2013 at 12:50 PM
 

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M635_Guy
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p.3 #11 · p.3 #11 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Zebrabot wrote:
Manfrotto doesn't know what they're doing either. How many dozens of incompatible plates do they have now?

The only system where you can mix and match anything is with products that are acra swiss-ish. Note the -ish part as every maker has their on spin on how it should work, but all the parts fit together.

I have a whatever was cheapest mix of Acratech (my favorite by far even though their stuff has some dumb flaws they've still not corrected) Kirk and Novoflex. All the parts fit and play nicely with each other. There's some other random stuff like a bracket
...Show more

You sound a little bitter - have you had a lens flex, get loose and fall off? I'm all for robust design, but even if we're talking really long primes with a D3s/D4 hanging off the back, what evidence do you have that the bolt Nikon chose isn't up to the task?

I'm only aware of a couple (photography) plates from Manfrotto - their rectangular and their hex. I know they have several different video plates that are matched to their video panning heads, but whatever. I don't get why they do it that way, and as a former user of one of their heads, I have to say their clamping system doesn't inspire confidence (though I did like the safety built into the quick release function). Manfrotto lacks a useful L-bracket, which is my favorite part of the A/S system (I know they have one, but it isn't one I'd leave on my camera 99% of the time like I do my RRS bracket). Personally, I don't like Manfrotto's system, and I think they are in serious trouble with the number of affordable A/S options coming on the market these days. Their big advantage is their brand name and how established they are with channels/stores. Time will tell, I guess.

Ultimately, it isn't in Nikon's interests to choose a mounting system, for a lot of reasons. Primary among them is it gives incentive for a company to come up with a better solution without having to worry about incumbency from an OEM like Nikon or Canon. Heck, it might even give Manfrotto the opportunity to move to something better.




Jan 23, 2013 at 12:54 PM
binary visions
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p.3 #12 · p.3 #12 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


M635_Guy wrote:
Ultimately, it isn't in Nikon's interests to choose a mounting system, for a lot of reasons. Primary among them is it gives incentive for a company to come up with a better solution without having to worry about incumbency from an OEM like Nikon or Canon. Heck, it might even give Manfrotto the opportunity to move to something better.


Maybe, but I'm just not sure why it would be any disadvantage to machine A-S dovetails into their lens feet, while leaving the threaded holes in place.

I mean, you gain compatibility with the most widely used plate system, and give up nothing because the foot is the same size, almost the same shape, and still has threaded holes on the bottom to mount a plate of the user's choice.

Any incumbent system is going to have to create plates for the threaded holes anyway - it's no better to mount them on a neutral foot than an A-S dovetailed foot.



Jan 23, 2013 at 03:39 PM
sjms
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p.3 #13 · p.3 #13 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


why? its simple they would then need to change the material they use in the foot which is no not appropriate for the use and longevity of the clamping system.


Jan 23, 2013 at 03:48 PM
binary visions
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p.3 #14 · p.3 #14 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Fair point, but I'm not really saying they just need to start taking their current collars and making them A-S.

Just pointing out that A-S compatibility doesn't negate compatibility with any other system, and they could easily start designing new collars for new lenses with this in mind. Especially if they're offering collars as "add-ons" for their more budget friendly lenses, which means they have incentive to deliver value over a customer buying a third party alternative.



Jan 23, 2013 at 09:27 PM
Zebrabot
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p.3 #15 · p.3 #15 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


M635_Guy wrote:
You sound a little bitter - have you had a lens flex, get loose and fall off? I'm all for robust design, but even if we're talking really long primes with a D3s/D4 hanging off the back, what evidence do you have that the bolt Nikon chose isn't up to the task?

I'm only aware of a couple (photography) plates from Manfrotto - their rectangular and their hex. I know they have several different video plates that are matched to their video panning heads, but whatever. I don't get why they do it that way, and as a former user of
...Show more

I'm not bitter, just annoyed nikon can be so stupid.

I use my equipment, and can assure you that a single 1/4x20 screw for such a lense is not suitable at all, and it will work loose. The 300mm lenses which are about the same size have two threaded holes, so that's a plus to prevent the single screw from working loose.

Even crappy video cameras have what's called a "VHS pin" to prevent the camera from rotating loose from the tripod or video head. Having a second point to secure something that is used to apply torque is old old old news.

Even cameras come loose from camera mounting plates. A non-skit type bottom can help a but, but it it not completely rigid, and things like a cork plate still slide off and flex enough to make a long lense vibrate.

I use blue threadlocker to keep my cameras on their plates, and prefer no threads at all on lenses if not needed. The more adapters and junk you stack up the less rigid your setup becomes and the more vibration problems you will have.

Mamiya has always provided dual 3/8 and 1/4 tripod (through use of a crappy insert most people never remove) mounts on their cameras and lenses and integrated index holes so you can use a plate that will never twist off.

It only took them about 12 seconds to think this through.

If you can design super awesome lenses why would you drop the ball on the mounting foot? It's lazy and makes no sense at all.

It's sort of like how crappy Zeiss lense caps are. I toss those back into the box and replace them with camera store dollar bin vivitar and tokina caps from the 1980s.













Jan 23, 2013 at 10:35 PM
sjms
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p.3 #16 · p.3 #16 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


yeah, these guys/girls have no idea what their doing. it's terrible how amateurs abuse their gear like this.












Edited on Jan 23, 2013 at 11:42 PM · View previous versions



Jan 23, 2013 at 11:27 PM
M635_Guy
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p.3 #17 · p.3 #17 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Binary Visions - do you have volume shipment/market share data that says the various Arca-Swiss guys combine to out-ship Manfrotto?

Zebrabot wrote:
commentary


I gather from all of the above that you don't have data/evidence that the bolts used are somehow inferior/unstable. I've never had my L-bracket or the foot on my 80-200 come loose at all, and they get used quite a bit (though the body with the bracket gets used more than the lens).

I work for a technology company, and in my experience companies like Nikon have reasons, specifications and test standards that apply to virtually every aspect of their design. You might not like the bolt, but my guess is they have some thought behind the choices they made.

I'm not trying to say they always to everything well - the old-style Nikon lens caps are much inferior to the current ones - I've replaced the caps on my Tokina and Tamron lenses with Nikon-brand because they are just plain better (and they were pretty cheap in Japan).

As for adding A/S to their feet, I honestly think you're missing the point and/or being a little obtuse (not saying that to throw rocks, but being frustrated that they don't endorse one platform over the other...). Imagine what Manfrotto and their customers would think about Nikon giving A/S users that kind of "free" value. Think about the disincentive it creates for a company that might bring out something better than A/S or Manfrotto. Then there is the concern about any potential IP liability and/or licensing fees if Arca-Swiss (the company) has filed patents around the standard.

(if this all comes out as argumentative, it isn't meant that way)



Jan 23, 2013 at 11:32 PM
sjms
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p.3 #18 · p.3 #18 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


every picture tells a story


Jan 23, 2013 at 11:41 PM
binary visions
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p.3 #19 · p.3 #19 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


Isn't it a little silly to throw up your hands and say, "competitors...innovation...liability...licensing..." when you're talking about adoption of a standard?

Those are things that have to be considered with every proposed standard. Market adoption is how standards become standardized. I think all the proponents of this are saying is not that there aren't some barriers, but that this would be a positive, useful, value-added transition for Nikon while still not reducing any of their current universal compatibility. I understand there are considerations; I work for a device manufacturer, and design decisions are not entered into lightly.

Also, I misspoke earlier. I have no idea what shipping rates are, I should have said "widely supported standard" not "widely used." Though given that Manfrotto has three different plate systems, I suspect A-S may ship more as well.



Jan 24, 2013 at 12:14 PM
M635_Guy
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p.3 #20 · p.3 #20 · Third Party Collar for 70-200 F/4?


It isn't a standard, at least not in the sense you mean.

Are you frustrated that not all wheels fit on all cars? In fact, there is HUGE variation for wheels (offset, lugs vs. bolts, hub size, etc.) - why can't all the manufacturers agree to a single wheel standard? (btw - none of those things dictate wheel diameter). There aren't any licensing or IP issues at all there, and nobody is going to invent a new wheel, right? Why not get together and make it easy on everyone??




Jan 24, 2013 at 02:26 PM
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