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Archive 2012 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?
  
 
joe88
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p.2 #1 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


agree with others, PL 25 over the 20mm if you are looking at IQ.

I have the PL 25. I have tried the 20mm, its not bad at all but I think its overpriced compared to the PL25.



Dec 07, 2012 at 03:12 PM
Jonas B
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p.2 #2 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


The OP, ShadowWalker asked: "Any recommendations? I know the Pany 20 is very small but I'm more interested in overall image quality and bokeh than size. Is the 25 that much better and worth the extra dollars?"

He got a series of answers. Let's have a look at them:

Carsten: "The PL25 is definitely worth it." - well, Carsten answers the question alright, but never explains why
httivals: "The 25mm is not sharper than the 20mm, to my eye, but it definitely has better bokeh and I can see a different "sparkle."(...)" - "definitely better bokeh" is a strong way to put it, "sparkle" isn't defined at all. AF speed is a fact though
CalW: "the charactor of photographs (...)" - no try at describing this character
cputeq: "differences are subtle" - without mentioning what the differences are
jojomon11: "25 ya" - and that was all his bandwidth or mood allowed for

deadwolfbones: "Both are great in different ways. 25 is better." - not a word about in what way the 25 is better
Jman13: "It's subtle. (...) much better bokeh (...) It's subtle, but the overall effect is much larger than the individual differences in each rendering component." - a try but no definition other than a lack of "it"
kahren: "Imo there is not enough bokeh and rendering difference to make the 25 an obvious choice" - and talks about the focal length instead (which makes sense to me)
Yakim: - agrees about the AF speed
you2: - mentions banding problems with the E-M5 and the GH3 - another fact

ISO1600: "25" - as informative as jojomon11
myself: "The deciding factor here should be the FOV, in my opinion." - presented with other opinions in a try to not see black and white only
FlyPenFly: (something about two different cars)
aleksanderpolo: "a little flat" and "bookeh is not as smooth" - at least putting some perspective on it, but is it correct?
ShadowWalker: "Thank you everyone for your great replies. It looks like the 25 is the way to go." - that's actually a bit impressive; a conclusion based on nearly no facts and dismissing those actually given


Mirza Ahmad: "the 25 and it 'draws' that much better" - whatever "draws much better" now may mean
joe88:"agree with others, PL 25 over the 20mm if you are looking at IQ" and also something about the 20 being overpriced compared to the 25" - as the 20 cost way less than the 25 the optical qualities between these lenses has to differ by quite some margin

So, the OP asks about bokeh and IQ, gets assurances and decides to buy the 25. His decision is based on nothing but undocumented and undefined opinions. This post is a meaningless exercise only. I have since some time wondered how much of everything posted here really is opinions only, opinions as opposed to facts or at least explanations. I don't accuse anyone of posting opinions hidden as facts, I don't look for a fight or anything. It's just something leading to a question: is this the state of how things works here?



Dec 07, 2012 at 06:35 PM
carstenw
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p.2 #3 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


Jonas B wrote:
Is this the state of how things works here?


You are much too serious, Jonas The answer is that a forum ("here") does not have a standard operating procedure ("how things work"), only people could have that, but probably also don't

To elaborate on my post (which I would have done if prompted), a friend of mine owns the P20 and I am familiar with it. I find the lens to be sharp, and of course it can have shallow depth of field when needed, with a bit of effort. I don't find any other qualities in this lens which I like. It has no character in particular, to me, and I like lenses with character. As far as I can tell, the only advantages of the P20 is that it is half the price and half the size, and of course some may prefer the focal length.

Having owned several very good Leica M lenses, I was surprised how good the PL25 is, at a fraction of the price. The sharpness is very good, the boke is wonderful, and I love the character of the lens. Apart from the 50 Lux-R E60, this lens comes closer than any other I have tried to the lens whose character I love so much: the 50 Lux-M ASPH.

It isn't perfect, but there isn't anything about it in particular which bothers me, perhaps apart from the size and shape. I love using it, and I love the results. The little CA it sometimes allows is well within my tolerance, and can be treated successfully.



Dec 07, 2012 at 06:50 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #4 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


Yes, when soliciting opinions you will most likely get opinions. Bokeh is subjective. I'm sure there is someone out there who PREFERs the 20mm bokeh over the PL25.


Dec 07, 2012 at 07:09 PM
ShadowWalker
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p.2 #5 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


Thanks everyone.
Before posting this I did read a number of online reviews and was well aware of the technical aspects of both lenses. What I was looking for was opinions. There are a lot of great people here on FM and I have learned much from them over the years. And I value their opinions, greatly. So when I hear from a lot of them that they think the 25 is better than the 20, that was just the opinions/recommendations I was looking for. Yes, some people shoot pictures of charts and compare numbers, but ultimately what I was looking for was opinions from people with real life experience with the lens. And I'm grateful to those that responded. (And I might add, I just picked up a 25/1.4 from the B&S board because of those recommendations).



Dec 07, 2012 at 07:37 PM
Jonas B
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p.2 #6 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


Yes, I'm too serious. Sometimes. Too often actually.

Jeff, it is good to know it was opinions only you were after. Talking about choosing a focal length suiting the style or vision of yours seem not to be important then... Anyway, you did the right thing in my opinion and I'm happy to be in line with all the other subjectivities and entities here _and_ that it even has a bearing on a random photographer.

Cheers,

Jonas



Dec 07, 2012 at 08:04 PM
 

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Jonas B
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p.2 #7 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


FlyPenFly wrote:
Yes, when soliciting opinions you will most likely get opinions. Bokeh is subjective. I'm sure there is someone out there who PREFERs the 20mm bokeh over the PL25.


I'm sorry if I offended you (?).
I thought your reply was a bit funny and just a tad less meaningful than the average reply.



Dec 07, 2012 at 08:06 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #8 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


Nope not offended, I think tone carries poorly especially for me online.


Dec 08, 2012 at 05:05 AM
cputeq
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p.2 #9 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


I have since some time wondered how much of everything posted here really is opinions only, opinions as opposed to facts or at least explanations

Welcome to pretty much any photography forum on the face of the planet

In photography, very little outside of hard, published camera/lens stats is objective.

To explain my post in particular (where I said "little differences" but didn't expound upon them), I had assumed the OP would know a 25mm vs 20mm lens and a 1.4 vs 1.7 aperture would dictate that a bokeh / DOF potential was more with the PL25 than the P20. If that bokeh is actually better, though, I cannot say.

I had also assumed the OP had done basic research on weights and AF speeds


In summary, the OP's question cannot definitively be answered, because it's asking a subjective question.





Dec 08, 2012 at 11:09 PM
Jman13
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p.2 #10 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


Jonas, with these two lenses, opinions are all there is to separate them. If you look at resolution charts, there's not much between them. If you directly compare bokeh samples over a wide range of backgrounds, you'll find them similar in some instances, and the 25 a bit smoother in others.

However, the biggest difference between them is how they draw. We can try and put objective criteria, but lets face it, it's hard to describe how a lens renders. There's a lot of gut feeling. To the best of my ability, I'd describe the 20 as having a clinical rendering, and the 25 as having a warm (not color temp, but feeling), classic look along with nice sharpness. It is difficult to put your finger on it, but how it rolls off to blur from sharp, the rich raw of the colors, the smooth tonality...they all feel a little better to my eye, and combined, I much prefer how the images look out of the 25.



Dec 08, 2012 at 11:28 PM
Jonas B
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p.2 #11 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


FlyPenFly wrote:
Nope not offended, I think tone carries poorly especially for me online.


...and for me as well. Then all is well and fine.


cputeq wrote:
Welcome to pretty much any photography forum (...)

To explain my post in particular (where I said "little differences" but didn't expound upon them), I had assumed the OP would know a 25mm vs 20mm lens and a 1.4 vs 1.7 aperture would dictate that a bokeh / DOF potential was more with the PL25 than the P20. If that bokeh is actually better, though, I cannot say.

I had also assumed the OP had done basic research on weights and AF speeds

In summary, the OP's question cannot definitively be answered, because it's asking a subjective question.


And you were right about all that. I was mistaken as I didn't realize the OP asked for opinions. That may tell something about me... Why should I buy a lens of one or another focal length because people likes L better than P?



Jman13 wrote:
Jonas, with these two lenses, opinions are all there is to separate them. If you look at resolution charts, there's not much between them. If you directly compare bokeh samples over a wide range of backgrounds, you'll find them similar in some instances, and the 25 a bit smoother in others.


Ah, there are even samples showing the 20 having smoother bokeh than the 25 in some cases.


However, the biggest difference between them is how they draw. We can try and put objective criteria, but lets face it, it's hard to describe how a lens renders. There's a lot of gut feeling. To the best of my ability, I'd describe the 20 as having a clinical rendering, and the 25 as having a warm (not color temp, but feeling), classic look along with nice sharpness. It is difficult to put your finger on it, but how it rolls off to blur from sharp, the rich raw of the colors, the smooth tonality...they all feel a little better to
...Show more

I agree about that. I do wish there was a way to describe these differences though. I also wonder how many would be able to label images correctly if it had been possible to do a sort of blind test.

.
.

Yes, all of you are right; I was too serious and now I again have to re-evaluate parts of what I have read here over the years. Thank you for the comments.



Dec 09, 2012 at 02:22 PM
dkmiles1
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p.2 #12 · Pany 20 vs 25 - Recommendation?


I've only used the 20, though I hear the same things about the two all the time. The 25 is better, but the 20 is a great little lens. And I have to agree. It is!

This is an 8 second exposure, shot at 1.8 across a lake at a lake house.... Seems pretty sharp to me. Though I know creatively, the f/1.4 is a bit better.

Not trying to be a wise guy, but what does it mean when a lens "draws" better? More subject isolation, or something else?

Bottom line, if you're budget's constrained at all, the 20 is about $200 less and is still a great lens...







Dec 09, 2012 at 02:44 PM
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