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Slide copier or scanner?

timballic
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p.1 #1 · Slide copier or scanner?

I have hundreds (literally) of 35mm transparencies that I want to copy to digital.

Question 1, Can I get decent results slide copying with 5DII and macro lens, or is a dedicated 35mm scanner the only way to go? (I believe there is a steep learning curve to get the best from scanning too.)

Question 2, If slide copying gives decent results how good is the Bowens Illumitran with Schneider Componon 60/5.6 Enlarger lens,
as they occasionally come up, or would an adapted Pentax bellows + slide holder be better (easily available) and using a slide projector with diffuser for light source.

Dec 01, 2012 at 11:25 AM

Bifurcator
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p.1 #2 · Slide copier or scanner?

I think it's mostly up to your budget. Good flatbed scanners and camera (macro) slide duplicators are about the same quality. I use a camera. I worked it out on my µ4/3 and Iget about 3,000 DPI on the 12mpx GH1 and 4,300 DPI on the 16mpx GH2. And of course you can pano the process or zoom/crop if you need more than that. My first duplicator for digital was hand made by epoxying a filter ring on one end of a tin-can and putting the $50 Nikon ES-E28 head on the other. Worked the treat! For a light source many setups will work but the best method I've found is just flashing a mirror.

Duplicators scan in pretty fast and it's done at the speed of the camera's shutter - however positioning each one takes 15s or so. In contrast some flatbed scanners can scan 12 or more at a time and save the files for each individually. So if you wanna do all of your 100's in one sitting you might wanna consider a flatbed. It takes be about an 45min to do a roll of 32 on my duplicator.

Good dedicated slide scanners cost an arm and a leg (and a kidney) but produce better results when you're pixel peeping. Side by side you /might/ be able to see the difference between the two after PP and scaling.

Above that are of course drum scanners but they are cost-prohibitive and a half. I think this method produces noticeably better results at just about all scales.

Dec 01, 2012 at 12:18 PM

timballic
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p.1 #3 · Slide copier or scanner?

Thanks Bif, some great info there. I've also found the archived thread on D700 vs Coolscan5000ED which is useful.

http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/1031518/1

From reading everything I can find on the subject, it seems that the Dynamic Range of the sensor is not as good as a good scanner's range, but experimenting with some kind of HDR or other exposure merge technique may get the results much closer, also getting the right light source is important. Experimentation needed!

Dec 01, 2012 at 12:30 PM

pingflood
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p.1 #4 · Slide copier or scanner?

What do you consider a "good" flatbed scanner? I have a V700 here and while it does quite well for a flatbed it doesn't hold a candle to my rather affordable Reflecta Crystalscan 7200. Costs about 220 EUR or so, which I think is pretty reasonable.

Dec 01, 2012 at 09:41 PM

timballic
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p.1 #5 · Slide copier or scanner?

pingflood wrote:
What do you consider a "good" flatbed scanner? I have a V700 here and while it does quite well for a flatbed it doesn't hold a candle to my rather affordable Reflecta Crystalscan 7200. Costs about 220 EUR or so, which I think is pretty reasonable.

That's a new one for me, I'd heard that the V700 was about the highest recommended in that price area, I must read up about the Reflecta.

Dec 01, 2012 at 10:16 PM

rodmcwha
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p.1 #6 · Slide copier or scanner?

just a fyi---I'm not a canon user, so I don't know camera sizes, but the only copier that I know of that will accomodate a pro size camera is the beseler dual mode slide duplicator. (The chroma pro might.)
The illumitran definitely will not.

Dec 01, 2012 at 10:33 PM

timballic
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p.1 #7 · Slide copier or scanner?

rodmcwha wrote:
just a fyi---I'm not a canon user, so I don't know camera sizes, but the only copier that I know of that will accomodate a pro size camera is the beseler dual mode slide duplicator. (The chroma pro might.)
The illumitran definitely will not.

Thanks, I hadn't realised that. Is it a clearance issue between the Illumitran's bellows rails and mount?

EDIT: Yes I've just looked at pictures of the Beseler and there is a lot more clearance between mount and rails than on the Illumitran. Thanks again.

Edited on Dec 01, 2012 at 10:45 PM · View previous versions

Dec 01, 2012 at 10:38 PM

eosfun
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p.1 #8 · Slide copier or scanner?

Shoot with your camera. It's way faster and for many slides even better in quality. The idea that a scan is always better is just plain wrong. Indeed, most scans are better than a slide copy done in camera. But it's just slightly better in the details and then only when done perfectly well. In my experience a lot of lab scanned slides, and most of home scanned slides are just not up to my quality standards and worse than a good shot from your digital SLR on a slide copy stand. Making a good scan is really time consuming and costs a lot of experimentation.

I have done most of my slide scans with a 1Ds mk II on a Multiblitz slide copier, a dedicated optical stand for slides and negatives with a built in flash. It copies 35mm until medium format slides. This copy stand can do litteraly hundreds of slides in just a few hours once calibrated for the slide film used and your camera. I also have a Nikon Coolscan 8000 ED that I use to scan high quality medium format film slides and negatives. But it is really only in use for top quality scans where the details count. I have done maybe 10 scans this year with the Nikon Coolscan. I hate the workflow and the time it costs, so it's really only in use when the ultimate quality is necessary. To digitize slides with a DSLR on a slidecopier (with a good macro lens or even better an enlarger lens) is not hard at all and it's fast. If dynamic range is a problem I recommend to shoot in bracket mode and merge the files according to tone maps you want. This process is easy to automate and if done well is hardly below the quality of a great scan. No need to say that white balance, contrast compensation and all kinds of file treatment are much easier and faster to do. The main issue that'll remain are dust and small scratches. Most good scanners have lighting units and software that takes care of removing dust specs and scratches. If your slides are clear and clean this is a minor issue. and for those slides that suffer from it you should be able to repair the dust and scratches in postprocessing. A good multiblitz slide scanner can be bought second hand at prices between 100-150 euro including a repro lens or an enlarger lens like the EL-Nikkor, Schneider Componon, or a Rodenstock Rodagon.

Dec 01, 2012 at 10:41 PM

timballic
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p.1 #9 · Slide copier or scanner?

Thanks eosfun, that's what I hoped to hear from someone.

No Multiblitz on ebay at the moment, but I'll keep looking. (Beseler, being from USA probably won't turn up over here?)

Obviously the Pentax bellows/copier idea will be doomed for the same reason as the Illumitran, no clearance for a 5DII.

Edit: The Contax bellows/slide copier looks like it has the clearance, but costs as much as the Multiblitz!

Dec 01, 2012 at 10:59 PM

DaveOls
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p.1 #10 · Slide copier or scanner?

I just copied over 2,000 slides Using my Nikon D80 with an AIS 105mm f/8 micro lens with a close up lens on the front. Some of them came out extremely well and others not quite as well. I know Canon made these close up lenses also, but I don't know if they still do. I found that with a #4 close up lens I was able to center the slide and not get any mount in at all. When I used the #3, I almost invariably caught some of the mount.
Your Canon lens may focus closer than my Nikon which only goes to 1:2 so you may not need the close up lenses. This is a much cheaper option that buying a scanner that you use for a few days and then put away into a closet.
It took me about 3 weeks to do 2,000+ slides. I found that my back would start giving out after 40 or 50 images. You might try a bar stool or something.

Dec 02, 2012 at 02:02 PM

martines34
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p.1 #11 · Slide copier or scanner?

There are sources who will scan your slides for you at a reasonable price. It's the way I would go.

When you receive the finished product you can go through and then pay particular attention to only the ones that are worth your time an effort to do over.

Dec 02, 2012 at 02:05 PM

DaveOls
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p.1 #12 · Slide copier or scanner?

A lot of those slide scanning places are in India. Slides could get lost and sent back in no particular order. That is why I did my own, so I could do them one at a time and replace them to their proper place.

Dec 02, 2012 at 02:40 PM

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p.1 #13 · Slide copier or scanner?

If you go with eosfun's suggestions which I also agree with, might I suggest going with a Rodagon. It's much sharper than EL-Nikkors. At least my Rodagon 105/5.6 blows away my 4 El-Nikkors. I assume it's a maker wide phenomena.

All of the 5 or 6 Schneiders I've tried were total crap tho.

Additionally, all a "close-up filter (diopter lens) does is decrease the working distance of the lens you attach it to. Bellows or extension tubes do pretty much the same thing although with extension you're digitizing less of the image circle - so at very long extensions the resolution can come apart. This usually begins to become apparent at around 2x and by 3x or so the affects can be fairly poor. This isn't the case with close-up filters but you're also shooting through another lens. Typically there are two type of close-up filters. One is single element multi-coated and the other is a doublet or triplet achromat. If you use a close-up filter (for anything really) don't go for anything other than an achromat! There are "Kenko AC" (not Kenko MC) and Canon brand close-up filters that I know are achromatic and there may be others as well - but do check! Otherwise you're just throwing away your money.

Dec 02, 2012 at 02:49 PM

timballic
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p.1 #14 · Slide copier or scanner?

I have both the 150mm Sigma macro (MkI) and Makro Planar 100mm + tubes, so I think I'll start experimenting with one of those, but if I do get a copier the Rodagon sounds good.Thanks.

Dec 02, 2012 at 05:22 PM

jhinkey
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p.1 #15 · Slide copier or scanner?

I'm the OP of the cited thread comparing the D700 vs. CoolScan 5000ED. Unless you have a D800, not very many slides, and the slides are scratch-less/pristinely clean the CoolScan 5000ED is the way to go, especially if you have the optional slide feeder attachment.

After you are done with the CoolScan you can sell it with little loss.

John

Dec 02, 2012 at 06:03 PM

timballic
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p.1 #16 · Slide copier or scanner?

Re Rodagon, there seems to be 3 versions of each length" zebra, rubber grip and smooth with plastic window, I imagine in that order of age, any idea if any version better than another? Also there seem to be more 80/4 than 105/5.6 around and cheaper.

Dec 02, 2012 at 06:20 PM

timballic
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p.1 #17 · Slide copier or scanner?

jhinkey wrote:
I'm the OP of the cited thread comparing the D700 vs. CoolScan 5000ED. Unless you have a D800, not very many slides, and the slides are scratch-less/pristinely clean the CoolScan 5000ED is the way to go, especially if you have the optional slide feeder attachment.

After you are done with the CoolScan you can sell it with little loss.

John

Good to have your input John. I'm just put off by the learning curve involved, being much more used to film technique than using Lightroom, Photoshop etc. However, your conclusion obviously comes after your own experimentation and is very valid.

Is the Super LS 5000ED the same, better or worse? There seem to be several slide feeders too.

Dec 02, 2012 at 06:25 PM

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p.1 #18 · Slide copier or scanner?

timballic wrote:
Re Rodagon, there seems to be 3 versions of each length" zebra, rubber grip and smooth with plastic window, I imagine in that order of age, any idea if any version better than another? Also there seem to be more 80/4 than 105/5.6 around and cheaper.

Mine is a plastic body with the aperture indicator in a window. I dunno about the 80mm one.

http://www.dgrin.com/showpost.php?p=1603542&postcount=1

It looks like this:

http://cdn.idealo.com/folder/Product/1206/8/1206830/s1_produktbild_gross/rodenstock-rodagon-105mm-f5-6.png

And do they really want 650 euros for this? Wow, that's like $1,000 right? I'd sell mine for a lot less than that!!! PM me if you're interested.

EDIT:
OK, I found one for about what I paid and what I would sell it for too ($250 ±).

http://www.ebay.com/itm/Rodenstock-Rodagon-105mm-f5-6-Enlarging-Lens-for-6x9-Negatives-/380453023442?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_2&hash=item5894c46ed2

Mine is the same model as that one too.

I think it's interesting that the specifications state: Magnification Range ........ 2X - 10X. I haven't tried it past about 1.5x (of course in ratio to µ4/3 sensor) but if it does 10x well then that puts it up with other dedicated macro lenses costing around $700 (used) or slightly more. Sounds like this might be a good bargain macro item. I'll have to test it at those higher magnifications and see how it actually performs.

ALSO:
I dunno the 150mm Sigma macro but the MP 100/2.8 (C/Y) is kinda nice. I haven't shot slides with it but at f/8 to f/16 it's very sharp at 1:1 and would probably do well. I like it because the "roundness" (IF to OOF transition) is very Zeiss-like at more typical shooting distances - so great for portraits and landscapes IMO!

Dec 02, 2012 at 07:48 PM

timballic
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p.1 #19 · Slide copier or scanner?

Well I'm getting started with this: Contax Auto Bellows + Contax Slide Copier + Yashica 100mm Macro lens

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/190759784798?ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&_trksid=p3984.m1497.l2649

Thought this was a good place to start, and the price seems acceptable as the bellows alone often sell for that.

I've seen a picture of one selling from Germany (at €320 just for the bellows), with a 5D attached + 13mm tube as spacer, so I'll need to get that now, (the tube not the camera)

I looked up the Yashica bellows lens and it appears to be fairly well rated, though obviously not the standard of the superb Contax Bellows lens, but then not that price either.

If the results don't satisfy I'll resell and go the scanner route.

I used to own a Novoflex 100/4 Bellows lens with Nikon PB4 Bellows, now sold, I'll be interested to see how the Yashica compares or whether a Rodagon (80 or 105mm) would be a lot better. (Rodagon sounds like he should be a character in Lord of the Rings!) I notice there are Apo-Rodagons too but at more than twice the price of the normal Rodagons.

Dec 03, 2012 at 05:26 PM

Bifurcator
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p.1 #20 · Slide copier or scanner?

Nice!

I'm jealous of those bellows now! Garrr....

Dec 03, 2012 at 05:50 PM

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