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Archive 2012 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?

  
 
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #1 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


chez wrote:
You wouldn't want to take a phase 1 out on a trek with any amounts of elevation gains or inclement weather. The D800 image quality does approach that of medium format at a fraction the price.


Have one friend who regularly shoots a Phase one back on a Mamiya 645 in the back-country and up and over 10,000', sometimes staying out for more than a week at time. Interesting side note, he also brought a D800e along on our most recent shoot, which would not have imagined even a year ago given his background. Though I have to also tell you that on quite a few occasions he still hauled the MF back out into the field as well...

(MF digital is probably not the sort of gear most of us will want to work with for other rea$on$, and because it has its own limitations in terms of flexibility.)

I would agree that around 24" x 30" (or 36") is where a close inspection by a knowledgable photographer will begin to reveal differences between the 21 MP or 22 MP sensors and the 36 MP Nikon sensor. But here you would still be looking at a very fine print from the 5D2 or 5D3. Do keep in mind that you won't be printing a whole lot larger than that before the D800 print resolution drops to the same level. Folks to don't do the numbers sometimes overestimate how much larger they will be able to print at the same resolution with a given increase in MP.

Dan



Nov 24, 2012 at 06:42 PM
chez
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p.3 #2 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


gdanmitchell wrote:
Have one friend who regularly shoots a Phase one back on a Mamiya 645 in the back-country and up and over 10,000', sometimes staying out for more than a week at time. Interesting side note, he also brought a D800e along on our most recent shoot, which would not have imagined even a year ago given his background. Though I have to also tell you that on quite a few occasions he still hauled the MF back out into the field as well...

(MF digital is probably not the sort of gear most of us will want to work with for
...Show more

Dan one other thing to note. The extra pixels don't only allow for larger photos with great detail, but also allow for more cropping headroom to enable different formats to be produced from the same image. For me, I would always like more pixels than less.



Nov 24, 2012 at 07:12 PM
thw2
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p.3 #3 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


chez wrote:
For me, I would always like more pixels than less.


I am sure you are honest about this.

But just a few years ago when Canon was spearheading this megapixel race, they were bashed badly for that. It is ironic because they are now lagging behind competition, it's now more fashionable for folks (excluding yourself) to whine about low pixel count of Canon DSLRs.



Nov 24, 2012 at 07:27 PM
chez
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p.3 #4 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


thw2 wrote:
I am sure you are honest about this.

But just a few years ago when Canon was spearheading this megapixel race, they were bashed badly for that. It is ironic because they are now lagging behind competition, it's now more fashionable for folks (excluding yourself) to whine about low pixel count of Canon DSLRs.


Technology keeps moving forward and I am moving with it. Back in my film days in the darkroom, a big print would be 16x20. Now, I use that size and larger for proofs. Ain't technology wonderful.



Nov 24, 2012 at 07:31 PM
pookipichu
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p.3 #5 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


But Canon isn't just lagging in megapixels, it's lagging in DR and shadow noise, also time doesn't stand still. A few years ago, 21 MP was acceptable for most commercial gigs, more and more, higher MP are being demanded by clients. It's been a LONG time since the 1Ds3 was released, more was expected from Canon's recent bodies, rightfully so.

thw2 wrote:
I am sure you are honest about this.

But just a few years ago when Canon was spearheading this megapixel race, they were bashed badly for that. It is ironic because they are now lagging behind competition, it's now more fashionable for folks (excluding yourself) to whine about low pixel count of Canon DSLRs.




Nov 24, 2012 at 07:55 PM
Gochugogi
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p.3 #6 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


Yes, I recall a few years back when people ridiculed the 7D and 5D2 for pixel overkill. Of course most of these people didn't actually print their images or, if they did, they were tiny 8x10 samples for grandma.

I also recall the dynamic range of those cameras exceeded the reproduction range of paper. Those rich gradations on my Cinema Display blocked up when printed (not to mention the problems of reflected media vs translucent displays). The only way to get detail in the extremes of the range was to lighten shadows and darken highlights, thereby compressing 10 stops of range into 4 or 5 for print. To me it looks compressed and fake but taste changes and folks have gotten used to a quasi HDR look. I still prefer a more analog and graphically strong look with shadows going black in contrasty lighting. So, yeah, I haven't found my 5D2 lacking in terms of rez or dynamic range and am still amazed at how smooth and noiseless the images are, especially compared to my previous DSLRs and 3 decades of film.

Historically Nikon and Canon have regularly leapfrogged one another with features and new technology. So I wouldn't be surprised if, once the impatient switch to Nikon or Sony, Canon will have another ace up its sleeve. As I recall Nikon endured much longer "dry spells" the past couple decades.



Nov 24, 2012 at 09:28 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #7 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


pookipichu wrote:
But Canon isn't just lagging in megapixels, it's lagging in DR and shadow noise, also time doesn't stand still. A few years ago, 21 MP was acceptable for most commercial gigs, more and more, higher MP are being demanded by clients. It's been a LONG time since the 1Ds3 was released, more was expected from Canon's recent bodies, rightfully so.


I'm calling "nonsense" on several parts of your post. Canon may be "lagging" in MP and DR and shadow noise (jeez, really? That again?), but Nikon "lags" in its own areas... and in the end the differences are a) trivial and b) don't last long.

And since when is "21MP..." not " acceptable for 'most commercial gigs'?" What the heck are you talking about? There are and have been a few oddball stories of ignorant clients who think they know something trying to tell photographers how many MP they should have in their images, but a) those are really unusual and true outlier clients and b) 21 MP is still virtually always regarded as plenty for "commercial gigs" done with DSLRs.

Yes, many of us thought that Canon would increase the photosite density in the most recent 5D-series body. However, Canon listened to people like those in this forum who ranted about "stopping the megapixel wars" and asked for things like a better AF system... and now they want more MP. Funny.

Also, Canon, like Nikon and all other companies, plays a game of trying to understand what the competitors are doing and staging the release of new features so that they have the greatest potential to play well in the marketplace. It seems that this time Nikon did a fine job of both significantly improving their camera technology and of keeping it under wraps until after Canon had committed to a particular strategy with the 5D3. In retrospect, Canon probably is not completely happy with how that bet turned out, but you can be sure that they will rectify this in relatively short order. Perhaps they'll rectify it and then some.

The thing that replaces the 1Ds series bodies may be part of that story, but I'll bet it won't be the whole thing.

Take care,

Dan



Nov 24, 2012 at 10:11 PM
retrofocus
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p.3 #8 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


thw2 wrote:
But just a few years ago when Canon was spearheading this megapixel race, they were bashed badly for that. It is ironic because they are now lagging behind competition, it's now more fashionable for folks (excluding yourself) to whine about low pixel count of Canon DSLRs.


I am sure we all will laugh in 10 years from now about the current discussions if 21 MP FF sensors are sufficient or if a 36 MP FF sensor is a lot better. I am convinced that we will see GP (yes, gigapixel sensors) in consumer cameras at some point. The MP race is unstoppable, technology will move forward. Also the computer architecture will move forward, allowing faster data transfers for larger data amounts, we will see much bigger solid state hard drives for affordable prices. There is no real reason to keep thinking that an amout x of MP would be sufficient and the end. Problem is to find ways to avoid the electron tunneling between denser and denser pixels on a given sensor area - that's why I believe we will see soon larger than FF sensors as the next big step. The area between MF and DSLRs will shrink and might merge at some point which will give a huge problem to established MF companies.



Nov 24, 2012 at 10:39 PM
pookipichu
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p.3 #9 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


You're entitled to your beliefs and opinions, we have different clients and different needs. Enjoy your equipment.

gdanmitchell wrote:
I'm calling "nonsense" on several parts of your post. Canon may be "lagging" in MP and DR and shadow noise (jeez, really? That again?), but Nikon "lags" in its own areas... and in the end the differences are a) trivial and b) don't last long.

And since when is "21MP..." not " acceptable for 'most commercial gigs'?" What the heck are you talking about? There are and have been a few oddball stories of ignorant clients who think they know something trying to tell photographers how many MP they should have in their images, but a) those are really unusual
...Show more



Nov 24, 2012 at 11:07 PM
chez
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p.3 #10 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


gdanmitchell wrote:
I'm calling "nonsense" on several parts of your post. Canon may be "lagging" in MP and DR and shadow noise (jeez, really? That again?), but Nikon "lags" in its own areas... and in the end the differences are a) trivial and b) don't last long.

And since when is "21MP..." not " acceptable for 'most commercial gigs'?" What the heck are you talking about? There are and have been a few oddball stories of ignorant clients who think they know something trying to tell photographers how many MP they should have in their images, but a) those are really unusual
...Show more

Dan, before 21 mpix, there was 16 mpix which at the time was everything a photographer needed to meet their clients needs and that there was the industry leading 12 mpix...which also met clients needs. Why is it that you shoot with a 21 mpix camera when just a few short years ago a 12 mpix met clients needs? And going forward I guess you will not be migrating to Canon's high mpix camera...right, after all the 21 mpix camera meets clients needs.

Take care,

Harry...



Nov 25, 2012 at 12:25 AM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #11 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


chez wrote:
Dan, before 21 mpix, there was 16 mpix which at the time was everything a photographer needed to meet their clients needs and that there was the industry leading 12 mpix...which also met clients needs. Why is it that you shoot with a 21 mpix camera when just a few short years ago a 12 mpix met clients needs? And going forward I guess you will not be migrating to Canon's high mpix camera...right, after all the 21 mpix camera meets clients needs.

Take care,

Harry...


I do it for my own "needs," which generally exceed that of a typical "client."



Nov 25, 2012 at 01:48 AM
stanj
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p.3 #12 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


chez wrote:
Dan, before 21 mpix, there was 16 mpix which at the time was everything a photographer needed to meet their clients needs and that there was the industry leading 12 mpix...which also met clients needs. Why is it that you shoot with a 21 mpix camera when just a few short years ago a 12 mpix met clients needs? And going forward I guess you will not be migrating to Canon's high mpix camera...right, after all the 21 mpix camera meets clients needs.


Not being Dan, I will answer for myself as I think it applies to most of us: my clients' needs have increased. Just as photographers need to increasingly think outside the box when it comes to composition and execution, the same applies to resolution. Your average photo that would have been amazing in the 80s just doesn't turn people's heads anymore. Same with resolution. Personally, in the 80s I was printing 8x10 and thought how huge things were. Now I make a 20x30 without even blinking an eye.



Nov 25, 2012 at 03:54 AM
jj_glos
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p.3 #13 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


Exactly it all depends on the services you require to meet your clients needs. I shoot rugby, motor sports and weddings and have no need at all for a 36MP body. Albums and a maximum of 15x10 prints just don't need it. The only time I've printed bigger is for my own use. Actually in the past I did make poster size prints for a client from a 1D3, that was over two years ago and was a one off.

I had gear lust over the D800 when it was released, but when I sat back and looked at it rationally I realised that for me it wouldn't improve my photography at all. That and I'd also need a new laptop for processing. I won't be buying a high MP body from Canon either.



Nov 25, 2012 at 04:47 AM
SchnellerGT
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p.3 #14 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


As a 5DII owner and Canon user for 10 years, I recently rented a D600 + 24-70/2.8G combo from LensRentals.com. I feel that Nikon now offers a much better value proposition than Canon does. You also get a longer warranty with Nikon. That said, Canon offers superior build quality, fit and finish when it comes to both bodies (5DIII) and its L lenses.

But I do feel that the D600 offers the best bang-buck ratio of any DSLR on the market at the moment and if it were not for the shutter/oil/dust problem, I would have made the switch by now.



Nov 25, 2012 at 09:52 AM
jj_glos
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p.3 #15 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


Those issues and the mediocre AF, are Nikon users calling it "crippled" I wonder...


Nov 25, 2012 at 09:55 AM
BigBadWolfie
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p.3 #16 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


Thanks for all the responses. A couple of thoughts/clarifications.

Ergonomics are important to me, but I don't think it's a significant consideration here. Canons feel great in my hand including the 5DIII. Coming from the 60D, I feel that I'll have no trouble getting use to the camera. I have held the D800e and it's about the only Nikon that feels good in my hand. I held the D600 and didn't like holding it. I do feel I have to adjust to the new controls if I move to Nikon but no biggie.

Lens lineup: I'll probably go with the 24-70 first as an everyday walk around lens and then fill out my lens lineup in time and as budget would allow. For my needs I don't see significant advantages with either system except wide angle...

Landscape lens choice is very important and a big consideration as to where to go from here. I do like to shoot wide. Previously, I considered the Nikon 14-24 to be a major reason for switching to Nikon, but I've been using filters more often and Nikon's 14-24's inability to take my Lee filters (not really interested in buying filters just for the 14-24) makes it an iffy choice as my go to landscape lens. On the Canon side, I'll probably pick up the 17-40 or 16-35 first and then the 24mm TSE as funds would allow. Another option is to just have the TSE and a 24-70 and do panos if I need to go wider. I would love to have a TSE lens in my lens lineup but it's also something I think I can live without. Just like the 14-24. Love to have it, but I can probably live without it and use another lens that can take filters more readily.

Functionality (for a lack of a better word) is something I give the edge to Canon. I have the infrared remote which I love as a quick way to take travel snapshots placing my camera on a tripod. I would hate to lose this functionality. I also do make extensive use of live view and manual focusing. Popup flash on the D800e is useless to me.

The autofocus and oil on sensor comments were indeed a reference to the problems plaguing the D800 (the oil spill seems less of a problem on the D800 compared to the D600 but it is still a problem).



Nov 25, 2012 at 12:30 PM
NCAndy
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p.3 #17 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


I like my Canon gear but I'll admit a camera like the D800e is compelling. I'm sure Canon will have a higher mp camera soon enough, hopefully with better low ISO dynamic range. Unfortunately I doubt I will be able to afford it until that tech trickles down to the 5 series. I'm glad Nikon is pushing Canon, and that we have threads like this one where photographers are debating the merits of each because the competition will benefit us all.


Nov 25, 2012 at 12:47 PM
SoundHound
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p.3 #18 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


As noted by another poster the crucial difference is the D800(e)'s 2+ stop advantage in low ISO DR. No amount of but ifs and "get your exposure right" will change that. Yes Canon has banding and now some Canon cameras are better. But the D800(e) can see into the shadows and Canon can't. That's vital for landscape. Just no way around it (unless you want to stitch HDR files?).

Per your comment you are starting over with new FF glass. Sure Canon will make a better camera-but when? Nikon continues to improve too and, at least for now, has better value in bodies and many FF lenses. My D800(e) has no oil I can see. The VF color balance looks fine with a simple tweek (and I shoot RAW so color balance is adjusted on my calibrated monitor). Overall, my Canon gear, over 5 years, has had way more service and tweeks required than my Nikon gear.

I have the 5D Mk II, 1Ds Mk III and Nikon D4/800e/D3s. Lots of FF lenses for both. I shoot Nikon and the Canon gear just sits except for the 15mmFE and 17mm TSE. No way I am going to buy another overpriced/featured rationed Canon body. So you have read all about people who like Canon-here. Now checkout the Nikon forum.




Nov 26, 2012 at 01:13 PM
Derek Weston
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p.3 #19 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


I'm going to see what the 6d looks like. If DR really improves, I may stick with canon. Still don't have any full frame gear to me so it doesn't matter.

I really dig the d800e, though. 36 mp is great, I often crop in post. No AA filter is great, improved 'natural' sharpness... better starting point. DR is great... I often find myself pushing shadows in the images I take. (and that's with a canon rebel)

I shoot mostly zooms in my landscapes...partially due to trying conditions. Nikons lineup of zooms below 70-200 -- mostly what I shoot -- is just as good if not better than canons.



Nov 26, 2012 at 01:26 PM
gdanmitchell
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p.3 #20 · Moving to FF: Stick with Canon or Switch to Nikon?


stanj wrote:
Not being Dan, I will answer for myself as I think it applies to most of us: my clients' needs have increased. Just as photographers need to increasingly think outside the box when it comes to composition and execution, the same applies to resolution. Your average photo that would have been amazing in the 80s just doesn't turn people's heads anymore. Same with resolution. Personally, in the 80s I was printing 8x10 and thought how huge things were. Now I make a 20x30 without even blinking an eye.


Being Dan, I must point out that the material you quoted was not what I wrote, and it doesn't represent my point of view. I will migrate to a higher MP Canon camera at some point, for reasons I've explained before.

(I have done the math, so I would not migrate to system with greater sensor resolution unless the difference was quite significant. For example, an increase from 21MP to, say 28MP would not be compelling to me. An increase from 21MP to 36+MP would be. If the 5D3 design had gone in that direction, I would almost certainly have upgraded. However, the increase is not compelling enough to make me consider moving to Nikon since I can produce really excellent work with the Canon gear right now... and I'm willing to wait a bit if I have to for this upgrade rather than go through the disruptive exercise of replacing all of my gear for more MP for a year.)

Someone used the word "crucial" to describe the differences between cameras - I think it was related to dynamic range. Not all differences are crucial. Some differences produce an advantage - I'll always take more dynamic range and less noise and higher resolution if I can get it at a reasonable cost. But not all advantageous differences are "crucial." For the sake of argument, let me grant the notion that a Nikon camera has, let's say, more dynamic range. I'm all for that, but... I'm not running into that many situations in which the increase would make a difference - the situations in which my current gear cannot produce the photograph quite well and the supposed DR increase from the Nikon would cover enough additional ground to make it worthwhile. To explain that, a shot could fall into three categories in this regard.

1. Both the Canon and Nikon cameras can handle it.
2. The Nikon can handle it and the Canon handles it a little less well (to go with the proposed argument).
3. Neither the Canon nor the Nikon can cover it.

By far, virtually all of my subjects fall into the first and third categories. That second one is the smallest one of all - the place where whatever added increment is claimed for the Nikon camera would make a noticeable difference in a photograph - so the question again is, especially with no camera is perfect and my current camera works very well, a cost/benefit one.

I, too, make 20 x 30 prints (or thereabouts) on a regular basis today and they look great. But while the 36MP Nikon (as I've said many, many times) looks like a fine camera and can support equal print resolution at slightly larger sizes, it just doesn't make sense for most people to consider switching brands on this account when:

a. most talking about this rarely if ever produce such large prints.
b. Canon will undoubtedly equal or exceed this sensor resolution in fairly short order.
c. aside from a few of you whose clients apparently ask you to use sensors with more than 22MP, most of the world has never encountered such a request from an actual client. ;-) (Of course, if you do... then the economic implications are different.)

As I wrote earlier, our OP in this thread has a somewhat different set of issues than I have, in that he was (IIRC) thinking of going from a Canon system that is almost entirely based around EFS lenses to a Nikon full frame system. If one feels compelled to make a brand switch, despite the fact that this rarely leads to better photographs, in his case the time is good.

Dan

(Who reminds anyone who managed to make it through this post, that I would argue the same principles if we were talking about a Nikon to Canon switch as well. Switching brands is very rarely going to produce the improvements in performance, much less in photographs that people imagine.)



Nov 26, 2012 at 04:00 PM
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