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Archive 2012 · Zeiss retro for macro?
  
 
Dergiman
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p.1 #1 · Zeiss retro for macro?


I want to take some images of insects, especially parts like face, legs, wings or other features. The necessary magnification is very high (higher than 3x life size, i am using a Canon 5 series camera). I do not even own a lens that goes higher than 1/2 lifesize ( best are ZE50MP and ZE100MP). I do also have Canon 90mm TS-E lens and a set of Kenko extension tubes which currently is my favorite combo for macro images but it doesnīt give me the necessary magnification and image quality could be better.

I am thinking of getting a retro adapter with 67 or 77mm thread so that i can mount my lenses in reverse (the lenses i intend to use are the Zeiss C/Y28/2.8 and 50/1.4 and the ZE35/2 (shorter focal length means higher magnification with equal extension, right?)). Field curvature is less important as i intend to use a macro rail and do focus stacking for DoF. Are these lenses suitable for the task? Should i rather save the expense for a retro adapter and head right to the Canon MP-E 65mm lens?



Nov 23, 2012 at 12:13 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #2 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Have you considered getting a bellows system? You could probably pick up a decent Pentax M42 bellows for less than $50. You could get a 55mm to M42 reversing ring adapter, plus a 67mm to 55mm setp-down ring for your 50/2 ZE, for about $30.


Nov 23, 2012 at 12:28 PM
Dergiman
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p.1 #3 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Thanks for the tip on Pentax bellows! Do you think the ZE50MP is the best option for reverse mode (i guess the floating element does more harm than good this way)?


Nov 23, 2012 at 12:48 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #4 · Zeiss retro for macro?


You're welcome.

Dergiman wrote:
...Do you think the ZE50MP is the best option for reverse mode (i guess the floating element does more harm than good this way)?


I don't know. You can pick up a Takumar of SMC-Takumar 50/4 Macro for about $75. OTOH, you don't have to reverse at 50mm lens to get high mag on a bellows system. Here's a figure that shows what I get with my Mamiya Auto Bellows N. The magnification values would be the about same for any similar focal length lenses, with the same bellows extension (see first figure). The "Lens Mount Distance" in this figure is from the sensor to the front standard of the bellows, where the lens is mounted.

The working distance (from front of lens to subject) really shortens for high magnification, with shorter focal length lenses (see second figure), and so lighting becomes a challenge. You could get better working distance with longer focal length lenses, but would need longer bellows extension, or add extension tubes.

The working distance data shown in the second figure depends on the geometry of the bellows, lens and adapters. The data in the first figure probably varies a bit with lens design (for same focal lengths), but is not dependent on bellows length, etc, as long as it fits between the sensor and subject.













Nov 23, 2012 at 12:58 PM
Peire
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p.1 #5 · Zeiss retro for macro?


jcolwell wrote:
Have you considered getting a bellows system? You could probably pick up a decent Pentax M42 bellows for less than $50. You could get a 55mm to M42 reversing ring adapter, plus a 67mm to 55mm setp-down ring for your 50/2 ZE, for about $30.



Or buy a set of extension tubes for you Contax/Yashica lenses - C/Y 28/2.8 and 50/1.4 for about 25 Euro? (I got one spare Kenko C/Y set 12mm+20mm+36mm ),or got a set of electonically coupled set of tubes for your 35/2 ZE?

Basing on my experience I would say that reversing is the least convenient way of macrophotography.



Nov 23, 2012 at 01:47 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #6 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Tubes are great, but you need a lot of them to reach 3x magnification.


Nov 23, 2012 at 02:00 PM
phuang3
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p.1 #7 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Have you thought about Zuiko 1:1 Macro Lens 80 mm f/4? You get good image already from 1:1. Better than those regular macro lenses.







With auto bellow, 2.4x can be reached.









Nov 23, 2012 at 02:14 PM
Peire
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p.1 #8 · Zeiss retro for macro?


jcolwell wrote:
Tubes are great, but you need a lot of them to reach 3x magnification.


Yes.To get about 3x and more magnification ratio bellows are the best - the most stable and precise.



Nov 23, 2012 at 03:02 PM
Sami Ruusunen
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p.1 #9 · Zeiss retro for macro?


I recommend you to try the reverse ring first, best zeiss ze lens for that is probably the 35/2.
Check the reverse ring thread in FM macro forum: http://www.fredmiranda.com/forum/topic/663112



Nov 23, 2012 at 04:02 PM
Dergiman
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p.1 #10 · Zeiss retro for macro?


I already looked at the Olympus bellows and the Oly macro lenses. But they donīt come cheap, i think iīd rather go for the Canon MP-E lens. How is image quality of the Canon MP-E vs. the Olympus 35mm and 80mm bellows lenses?


Nov 25, 2012 at 10:07 AM
 

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AhamB
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p.1 #11 · Zeiss retro for macro?


I think you mean the Olympus 38/2.8 and 80/4?

Google turns up some interesting links:
http://www.photomacrography.net/forum/viewtopic.php?p=79593&sid=7819b8344dc6661268b0c238c6e55a0c
http://www.alanwood.net/photography/olympus/macro-lens-38-28.html



Nov 25, 2012 at 12:25 PM
JohnJ
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p.1 #12 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Anyone interested in macro lenses should have a look at this:

http://www.coinimaging.com/Lens_tests.html



Nov 25, 2012 at 12:39 PM
Jman13
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p.1 #13 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Nevermind, I'm a dope...

Edited on Nov 25, 2012 at 05:17 PM · View previous versions



Nov 25, 2012 at 01:20 PM
jcolwell
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p.1 #14 · Zeiss retro for macro?


OP wants to get to 3x and higher magnification.


Nov 25, 2012 at 02:27 PM
AhamB
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p.1 #15 · Zeiss retro for macro?


JohnJ wrote:
Anyone interested in macro lenses should have a look at this:

http://www.coinimaging.com/Lens_tests.html


That's an excellent resource. Thanks. The Oly 38/2.8 clearly is a great lens but the Canon 35/3.5 bellows lens seems to be a very good alternative too.



Nov 25, 2012 at 02:32 PM
Gunzorro
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p.1 #16 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Dergiman -- I don't know what is wrong with your mention in the original post of the Canon 65/2.8, 1X to 5X. Seems like a perfect and compact solution with possibly the best IQ of all the suggestions. I've only read rave reviews about it. Granted, it is more costly than some other alternatives, but I don't seen any that have the same flexibility.




Nov 25, 2012 at 10:27 PM
AmbientMike
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p.1 #17 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Magnification varies even if fl is the same when you reverse lenses. Generally the wider lenses focus closer. 50/1.2 Nikkor was 1.1:1 if i remember right, more pedestrian 50s more like 1:2

Olympus had a 20mm macro lens too bellows only




Nov 26, 2012 at 03:45 AM
Sami Ruusunen
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p.1 #18 · Zeiss retro for macro?


If I recall right the 50mm lens reversed was about 1:1, 35mm lens reversed can go to 3:1 without extension tubes. 18mm lenses focal point goes inside the lens so you cant always go wider. So generally 28mm and 35mm lenses give the best usable magnification when reversed.

Also the lens barrel design affect the magnification factor when the lens is reversed, forexample the tube like front construction of 50mm macro planar gives extra extension tube when it's mounted in reverse position.

Afaik Canon MP-E 65mm macro is also reversed lens design of sort. Its very special lens and needs quite a bit practise to master. It's one of a kind lens but I would not say its IQ is better than the reversed high quality lens.

One thing also to consider is to combine multiple lenses together, forexample attach a reversed 35mm lens to the front of tele macro lens. With this kind of rigs you can go as close as its generally possible without using microscopic lenses.



Nov 26, 2012 at 10:02 AM
Dudewithoutape
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p.1 #19 · Zeiss retro for macro?


The thing with using reverse lenses is the exposed rear element, some lenses have their rear element right out there and I would be extra careful, especially with something so expensive (I only know how much the 35/2 costs but not how the element is). I'd hate to scratch a ZE or C/Y just to avoid getting the MPE.


Nov 26, 2012 at 11:27 AM
AhamB
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p.1 #20 · Zeiss retro for macro?


Gunzorro wrote:
Dergiman -- I don't know what is wrong with your mention in the original post of the Canon 65/2.8, 1X to 5X. Seems like a perfect and compact solution with possibly the best IQ of all the suggestions. I've only read rave reviews about it. Granted, it is more costly than some other alternatives, but I don't seen any that have the same flexibility.


There is the Olympus 65-116mm auto-tube, but with the 38/2.8 it's less flexible than the MP-E 65 -- only 2.5-4x magnification range. You'd need to change to the 80/4 to get less or the 20/3.5 to get more magnification.
http://www.alanwood.net/photography/olympus/telescopic-auto-tube.html




Nov 26, 2012 at 02:24 PM
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