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Archive 2012 · Question on copyright

patriot
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p.1 #1 · Question on copyright

Does a photographer own any photo they take? Does anyone who wants to use one of my photographs need my permission? If I give permission, do I have the right to rescind that at a later date?

I have been looking into this, and from what I can read and have been told, the photographer owns the copyright by default, regardless of the subject or formal copyright, unless the photographer enters into a written agreement to transfer the copyright.

Depending on the subject, the photographer may have some restrictions on how he can use a photograph. Am I allowed to any of my photographs in a portfolio of work without permission of the subject? How about for a photo contest? When do I need permission on how I can use my photographs?

I am a hobbyiest (i.e. volunteer), and have been letting various organizations use my photos of their events in a commercial fashion, without a formal agreement, for a number of years. The organizations are non-profit, and the events are in the performing arts. I am considering changing that arrangement, but one organization says that since I took the photo's with their permission, they own them, and can use them at will.

I am curious if that is correct. I would appreciate any recommendations on the best way to create a formal agreement for these situations. I would like to give them unrestricted use, while at the same time maintaining some use myself.

Nov 03, 2012 at 08:44 AM

pjbuehner
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p.1 #2 · Question on copyright

go pick up copies of Licensing Photography and Business and Legal forms for Photographers. It will be a great resource for you.
If you are employed by a company and take photos for them as a part of that job, then typically you give up copyright. If you give away your rights, then you lose copyright. Other than that, the copyright is yours.
Im not sure that your use of the term commercial makes sense either. It sounds like the organizations are using your photos for promotional use for their events.
The organization is also clearly confused. The fact that they let you take pictures is not a reason to own copyright...what you said to them later may be.
The bottom line is that these situations are easily preventable with contracts beforehand, but very sticky and adversarial after the fact.
Good Luck.
Don't take my interpretations as fact. If you want definitive answers, see a lawyer who specializes in copyright and contract law.

Nov 03, 2012 at 09:00 AM

Wolfr
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p.1 #3 · Question on copyright

patriot wrote:
Does a photographer own any photo they take? Does anyone who wants to use one of my photographs need my permission? If I give permission, do I have the right to rescind that at a later date?

I have been looking into this, and from what I can read and have been told, the photographer owns the copyright by default, regardless of the subject or formal copyright, unless the photographer enters into a written agreement to transfer the copyright.

Depending on the subject, the photographer may have some restrictions on how he can use a photograph. Am I allowed to any...Show more →

(I am not a laywer)

No, your photos are yours.

Pick up this book to learn more about your rights: http://www.amazon.com/ASMP-Professional-Business-Practices-Photography/dp/1581154976

Nov 03, 2012 at 09:52 AM

patriot
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p.1 #4 · Question on copyright

Yes, promotional materials, but also course catalogs, brochures, press releases, and other materials, and for several connected entities besides the theater company.

Can you explain what you mean? What could I have said that could given them copyright? Just curious.

Yes, that has happened. However, I do want to give them the rights, since this is of their work (the subject). I'd rather just end the relationship. However, they seem to be refusing to acknowledge that I own the pictures, and can rescind permission to use them, and say they will continue to use them at will. That kind of line in the...Show more →

I may have to do that, but would of course rather not have to go through the bother of all that.

Nov 03, 2012 at 01:51 PM

patriot
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p.1 #5 · Question on copyright

Wolfr wrote:
(I am not a laywer)

No, your photos are yours.

Pick up this book to learn more about your rights: http://www.amazon.com/ASMP-Professional-Business-Practices-Photography/dp/1581154976

Thank you I will do that!

Nov 03, 2012 at 01:53 PM

M635_Guy
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p.1 #6 · Question on copyright

I'm definitely NOT an attorney, but here is my understanding.

You automatically own copyright to any photo you take, but legal action and especially damages are limited unless you register your copyright. If you are employed to take photographs or volunteer, things are more complicated.

Their permission has no bearing at all on copyright. My guess is their point is that you agreed to take the photos for their use and stated no restrictions or fee. If you have granted them permission to use the photos without any initial conditions or limitations, I doubt you'll be successful restricting their use without attorneys.

I agree with the above that you should read up and get the forms that can all you to grant limited use to people you take photos for (whether for free or for fee).

Nov 03, 2012 at 02:06 PM

blutch
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p.1 #7 · Question on copyright

The question I have is.. can you sell images of a human subject without their permission? I know you cannot use it for commercial use - ie. advertising, but if you attend a concert and take a photo of a musician, you are free to sell it, correct?

B

Nov 03, 2012 at 02:11 PM

lukeb
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p.1 #8 · Question on copyright

Lots of good information

http://www.editorialphoto.com/copyright/

Nov 03, 2012 at 02:20 PM

Kerry Pierce
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p.1 #9 · Question on copyright

Interesting subject. Seems to me that this boils down to "who is the original copyright holder, the folks putting on the performance, which could be copyrighted, or the photographer, who photographs the possibly copyrighted performance?"

If their performance is copyrighted and they normally don't allow photography because of that, then the agreement that you entered into initially, would be very important, to my way of thinking. If they said, sure, you can take photos as long as we can use the photos that we want to use, any way that we want to use them, then I would think that you're on thin ice. I say that because that kind of agreement could easily be construed to where they would be your "employer".

But, I'm not an attorney either, so you'd be well advised to talk to one and make sure that he has all the relevant info on your initial agreements. The he said/she said type of deal is a real legal morass...

TBH, I don't understand why you'd want to embroil yourself in a legal hassle, if you want give them the rights to the photos and end the relationship anyway.

good luck
Kerry

Nov 03, 2012 at 02:49 PM

blutch
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p.1 #10 · Question on copyright

At a music concert that is open to the public, the only thing that can be copyrighted is the music. You have a right protected by the first amendment to photograph and publish anything that happens in the public. So, let's say you don't have an agreement with anyone and you come to a concert. They often announce or put in the program that they prohibit any audio or video recording or flash photography. Even if they say no photography, it should be your right to take photos as long as you are not disturbing the performance. The question is, can you then sell those images if you choose? Do newspapers obtain releases for every person they photography? I don't think so. I DO know that if you use it for commercial advertising purposes, you must get a release from anyone in the photo. That's different than publishing it online just as an image or selling it through smugmug or whatever.

Nov 03, 2012 at 04:04 PM

patriot
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p.1 #11 · Question on copyright

Kerry Pierce wrote:
Interesting subject. Seems to me that this boils down to "who is the original copyright holder, the folks putting on the performance, which could be copyrighted, or the photographer, who photographs the possibly copyrighted performance?"

If their performance is copyrighted and they normally don't allow photography because of that, then the agreement that you entered into initially, would be very important, to my way of thinking. If they said, sure, you can take photos as long as we can use the photos that we want to use, any way that we want to use them, then I would think...Show more →

Yes, the employment thing is interesting. From what I have read, it sounds like that means on the payroll. That is different from a contractor, or "for hire". Under those circumstances, even if you are paid, the photographer owns the photos, unless there in the contract copyright is given to the customer.

I found an interesting link on volunteer status.

http://www.nonprofitrisk.org/library/articles/employment010208.shtml

Their work I believe would be considered copyrighted, but I believe from what I have read, images of that work belong to the photographer, even if they were take with permission in a no photography allowed place. I believe I can't publish or use those photo's commercially without their permission, because they are of their work. But at the same time, they cannot use those photos without my permission, because the photos are my work.

But, I'm not an attorney either, so you'd be well advised to talk to one and make sure that he has all the relevant info on your initial agreements. The he said/she said type of deal is a real legal morass...

TBH, I don't understand why you'd want to embroil yourself in a legal hassle, if you want give them the rights to the photos and end the relationship anyway.

No, it's not worth it. My intent was to give them the photo's in 2013, when I would have been moving on anyway. Something came up in the meantime, fairly nasty, which made me consider otherwise. I believe I will part ways with them now, and give them the photo's.

Nov 04, 2012 at 09:19 AM

patriot
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p.1 #12 · Question on copyright

M635_Guy wrote:
I'm definitely NOT an attorney, but here is my understanding.

You automatically own copyright to any photo you take, but legal action and especially damages are limited unless you register your copyright. If you are employed to take photographs or volunteer, things are more complicated.

That's an interesting part, and one I can find nothing on: rescinding permission. Lots written about permission, nothing about taking it back. There are probably some rules or guidelines on that, but I can't find anything.

Nov 04, 2012 at 09:25 AM

Zebrabot
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p.1 #13 · Question on copyright

If they're being obnoxious, give them nothing now or in 2013.

there is no reason to stick around in an uncomfortable situation.

Nov 04, 2012 at 10:30 AM

patriot
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p.1 #14 · Question on copyright

Zebrabot wrote:
If they're being obnoxious, give them nothing now or in 2013.

there is no reason to stick around in an uncomfortable situation.

Unfortunately one of my kids is a student in their school, and performs in their productions. They threatened expulsion from both.

Nov 04, 2012 at 12:33 PM

Kerry Pierce
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p.1 #15 · Question on copyright

patriot wrote:
Unfortunately one of my kids is a student in their school, and performs in their productions. They threatened expulsion from both.

Wow, seems like there's always one real idiot in the crowd, no matter where you go. Holding your kid "hostage" in order to get their way, is about as low as one can go. Best of luck to you.

Kerry

Nov 04, 2012 at 01:40 PM

Zebrabot
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p.1 #16 · Question on copyright

patriot wrote:
Unfortunately one of my kids is a student in their school, and performs in their productions. They threatened expulsion from both.

tell them to put that in writing.

Nov 04, 2012 at 03:15 PM

patriot
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p.1 #17 · Question on copyright

Kerry Pierce wrote:
Wow, seems like there's always one real idiot in the crowd, no matter where you go. Holding your kid "hostage" in order to get their way, is about as low as one can go. Best of luck to you.

Kerry

A few actually. Parents are often held hostage in one way or another. Unfortunately this is not all to uncommon in this kind of thing, although this is a more blatant then most.

Nov 04, 2012 at 03:29 PM

rodmcwha
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p.1 #18 · Question on copyright

Wow! I thought I had already heard of most power grabs, but threatening expulsion of your child is a new low!
There comes a time when you have to take a stand. Only you know when that is and what it is worth to you.
If you could in any way, prove that they threatened the expulsion, you now own them!
I am a stubborn Irishman, and there is no way that I would not let them know who owns the rights.

Is there anyone in the organization that you get along with? It astonishes me that, even though you intend to give them the work, that they insist in, essentially, "punking you out", as part of the process.
How much longer does your child have under there power-maybe doing nothing till then would be the best.

If you do nothing they will continue to use the photos, then, when the time is right, you can file against them.

At the very least, I wouldn't formally give them anything. Be patient!
Good luck!

Nov 04, 2012 at 03:49 PM

martines34
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p.1 #19 · Question on copyright

This organization has all the answers you need.

They have an excellent book about the legal intrecacies of photography.

American Society of Media Photographers

About ASMP:

The American Society of Media Photographers is the premier trade association for the world�s most respected photographers. ASMP is the leader in promoting photographs� rights, providing education in better business practices, producing business publications for photographers and helping to connect purchases with professional photographers.

For more information, visit www.asmp.org

Nov 04, 2012 at 03:53 PM

patriot
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p.1 #20 · Question on copyright

rodmcwha wrote:
Wow! I thought I had already heard of most power grabs, but threatening expulsion of your child is a new low!
There comes a time when you have to take a stand. Only you know when that is and what it is worth to you.
If you could in any way, prove that they threatened the expulsion, you now own them!
I am a stubborn Irishman, and there is no way that I would not let them know who owns the rights.

Is there anyone in the organization that you get along with? It astonishes me that, even though you intend to give them...Show more →

Appreciate your sentiments, and it was my first thought as well. But all that does is put my kid in the middle, and at the end of the day that's not worth it to me. There's more to this than as well. The end result is shaping up to be the break I want from them now, with my kid unaffected. That is a relief.

Anyway, it has prompted me to learn about copyright, and other business issues related to photography. I appreciate all the suggestions, and will follow the links and recommendations offered.

Nov 04, 2012 at 06:07 PM


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