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Archive 2012 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider

  
 
edwardkaraa
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p.2 #1 · p.2 #1 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


The Minolta 85/1.4 is a copy of the Contax 85/1.4.

This issue has been discussed ad nauseam 5 years ago.



Oct 23, 2012 at 03:00 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #2 · p.2 #2 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


The Minolta 85/1.4 is decent for portraits but it's pretty crap for anything else... really soft. Like most of Minolta's legacy AF lenses, I think they're extremely overrated.

Yet the Zeiss ZA 85/1.4 is probably the sharpest autofocus 85/1.4 made for 135.



Oct 23, 2012 at 03:08 PM
Edgars Kalnins
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p.2 #3 · p.2 #3 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


philber wrote:
One interesting parameter that the Zeiss text leaves out is "who specifies the design?" Zeiss might well do all the development, if it is to a Sony specification, the end result could well be quite different than a "pure" Zeiss design. Then, let's not forget that a Sony-Zeiss lens needs to give a profit to 2 companies rather than one. So the price target assigned to the design team might well factor in a higher GM to accommodate for that. This, again, could impact how we rate the end result...

+
an important point to consider. I want to think that Zeiss is less cost-aware company than many others (I could be very wrong but I have always liked the history and structure of this company). Sony on the other hand have different goals and priorities. It could be argued that it is in Sony's best interest to keep Zeiss line as good as it possibly can be. However, the company is managed by people who have their own short-term aims. If they can increase the profit (receive better bonus etc) without sacrificing quality noticeably they will.



Oct 23, 2012 at 03:28 PM
michaelwatkins
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p.2 #4 · p.2 #4 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


alundeb wrote:
Interesting wording. They say "develop", then include a whole lot of specifics about test criteria etc.
But nothing about "lens design" or "lens calculations".
I would say, based on that exact wording, it is possible that Sony-Zeiss lenses are designed by Sony engineers.


You might be right but the word "develop" specifically isn't interesting at all. Bear with me:

ZEISS lenses for Sony digital cameras are developed by lens designers at the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen, Germany.

In the sentence you have a bunch of nouns (Zeiss, lenses, designers, Oberkochen) linked together principally by an adjective derived from a verb (developed / develop).

Since "lens designers" as an occupation design lenses, in context the word "developed" means carrying out their occupation (design).

What isn't specified is who the lens designers are, but I'd imagine some are from Zeiss, and some may be from Sony. If the lens were designed in Japan, then I could see perhaps Zeiss merely doing follow up quality assurance and testing in order to bless the lens with the Zeiss label. However being "developed" in Germany certainly implies more active participation by Zeiss if not solely by Zeiss. It is their home and playground after all.



Oct 23, 2012 at 03:48 PM
Edgars Kalnins
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p.2 #5 · p.2 #5 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


I feel like we were discussing a paragraph of the Scriptures now . All the nuances carefully examined!
Let us not forget that the language used both on Sony's and Zeiss's websites is very likely intentionally vague. It would be unthinkable that Zeiss stated plainly and in bold that ZA were inferior to the manual lenses. Thus we can not rely on the official statements too much and should pay close attention to people with inside information.



Oct 23, 2012 at 04:12 PM
inglis
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p.2 #6 · p.2 #6 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


The web page that FlyPenFly quotes in the first post in this thread is available at the Wayback Web archive at the address below. Zeiss might have departed from what they say here since publishing the text in 2007, since they also state that they are not designing interchangeable lenses for Sony.

http://web.archive.org/web/20070709183126/http://www.zeiss.com/c12567a8003b58b9/Contents-Frame/c7fb960ed6f52805c125711e004ad17c

1. Are there any spec sheets for Carl Zeiss lenses for Sony?
Carl Zeiss only publishes spec sheets for interchangeable lenses, and only when this is expressly requested by the camera manufacturer. ZEISS lenses for Sony are permanently integrated and are therefore not interchangeable. Sony does not wish the competition to have access to the the technical data on the optics, and to MTF values in particular.

2. Are wide-angle and/or tele attachments available from Carl Zeiss for Sony digital cameras and camcorders?
If yes, which, and for which cameras and camcorders?
Mutagon 0.6x T* and Tele 2x T* converters with 30mm thread diameter perfectly match the digital video camcorders that are equipped with ZEISS 3.3-33 mm Vario-Sonnar f/1.7 lens. These attachments are/were distributed through Sony.

3. Why are ZEISS lenses for Sony cameras produced in Japan?
Sony produces digital cameras of different types in extremely high numbers in several factories in Japan. The lenses for these cameras have to come from lens factories near the Sony camera manufacturing facilities to ensure reliable deliveries and minimize the economic risk of interrupted supplies.

ZEISS lenses for Sony digital cameras are developed by lens designers at the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen, Germany. This includes all required quality assurance measures (test methods, test criteria, test devices, test procedures, lens performance target values, etc.) The lenses are then made in a lens production facility jointly chosen by Sony and Carl Zeiss. Quality assurance specialists from the Carl Zeiss plant in Oberkochen implement the ZEISS quality assurance system in the chosen facility. Many ZEISS optic measuring systems are installed. Carl Zeiss audits the lens production areas on a regular basis.

All these measures ensure that ZEISS lenses in Sony digital cameras meet the expectations demanding users associate with ZEISS lenses.

4. Vario-Tessar or Vario-Sonnar: which one is better?
The difference between these two lens types does not lie in their image quality. Vario-Tessar allows smaller lens sizes because the attainable zoom factors, e.g. 3x, 5x, are smaller and the lens speed is lower, e.g. 1:3.5. Vario-Sonnar is bigger and permits higher zoom factors, e.g. 6x, 12x and more – and higher lens speeds, e.g. 1:2.0. The image quality of the two types meets the high quality standards of Carl Zeiss.



Oct 23, 2012 at 05:20 PM
philip_pj
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p.2 #7 · p.2 #7 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


A key difference seems to be that ZAs were developed off the Minolta lens base, whereas the ZE/Fs came from a Contax base. Which sounds like it has more CZ pedigree ;-)

I also don't agree with the A900 contrast curve concept - contrast is very easy to handle in post, and my Contaxes require very little unless the scene call for it. I also believe the modern CZ look is exemplified by the 2011-2012 releases, all note in ZE: 25/2, 15/2.8 and soon the 135/2. ZAs were a set dating from 2007/8 or so, no?



Oct 23, 2012 at 09:02 PM
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #8 · p.2 #8 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


At the end of the day, these are all just mass made consumer devices sold at pretty cheap prices for a mostly undemanding consumer market. Remember Cosina has it's roots in making low budget low quality hardware.

Until you start talking in the $15,000+ per item luxury market, goods are just mass produced as best as they can get away with. It's just not economically viable until you hit that mark that goods get individual attention from highly skilled technicians or artisans.

So ultimately, we're just arguing about is how much we want to imagine which one is intrinsically superior because someone hired at one firm instead of another firm (but probably worked at similar firms) when in reality they're all just kind of mass produced consumer crap. I still love lenses though.



Oct 23, 2012 at 09:58 PM
douglasf13
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p.2 #9 · p.2 #9 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


philip_pj wrote:
A key difference seems to be that ZAs were developed off the Minolta lens base, whereas the ZE/Fs came from a Contax base. Which sounds like it has more CZ pedigree ;-)

I also don't agree with the A900 contrast curve concept - contrast is very easy to handle in post, and my Contaxes require very little unless the scene call for it. I also believe the modern CZ look is exemplified by the 2011-2012 releases, all note in ZE: 25/2, 15/2.8 and soon the 135/2. ZAs were a set dating from 2007/8 or so, no?


The first ZAs were announced in June 2006, just a few months after Sony took over Minolta, and the lenses were released in Oct. 2006. At that time, there was talk/evidence that Sony/Zeiss had already been working on these lenses before the Minolta takeover, because Sony was originally planning their own DSLR mount before deciding to go the Minolta route, so I don't think there is much of a direct Minolta heritage in those lenses. It would be pretty amazing to develop and release the ZA 85 and 135 in only 3-6 months after acquiring Minolta, especially when Sony could have just rebadged Minolta lenses like they did with others, so I think that the ZA 85/135 design predating the Minolta takeover is likely.

Of course, I can't for the life of me remember the links for those discussions from 6 years ago, so take that for what it is worth.



Oct 24, 2012 at 08:20 AM
carlitos
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p.2 #10 · p.2 #10 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


With 3D-modeling and simulation software, and networked computers, lens and camera design does not have to be geographically constrained. The discussion about whether Zeiss or Leica lenses are made in Germany or China has always seemed to me to be superficial. I could post or e-mail a design to a shop anywhere in the world. The code for machining or grinding can be written by the file in the email, almost without human intervention. If the machine tool is well-maintained it should be able to give me a finished part to whatever tolerance I and my vendor agree to. If Zeiss asks Cosina to build a lens barrel to +/-.00004mm they should be able to accomplish it in Japan, China, or Oberkochen. Any shop in any country running "Six Sigma" should be able to produce what I have designed, to my standards.

On the other hand, I always assumed that Zeiss shipped Cosina the ground lenses for the Zeiss ZF and ZE lenses, to be assembled there. I have no documentation for that assumption, though.



Oct 24, 2012 at 11:20 AM
FlyPenFly
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p.2 #11 · p.2 #11 · Sony :: Zeiss - Panasonic :: Leica - Samsung :: Schneider


Why would they? Japanese technical labor is cheaper than German as well as running a factory. Why add additional shipping costs, insurance, and more overhead?


Oct 24, 2012 at 01:18 PM
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