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Archive 2012 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Exdsc
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p.1 #1 · p.1 #1 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Why my D200 RAW files look like crap? Why my D200 cannot render sky properly? Well, here is why:

http://i45./2znwryw.jpg

Raw Compression (right image uncompressed). Something that I had enabled long ago or it is enabled by default, I don't know, but I'm glad I realized what it was because I'm a huge fan of D200 and its sensor.

Edited on Oct 16, 2012 at 03:57 PM · View previous versions

Oct 16, 2012 at 01:58 PM

Adam Bavier
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p.1 #2 · p.1 #2 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

That is a lossy raw compression.

The newer cameras have lossless raw compression. With the lossless compression you lose nothing and your file size is smaller.

Oct 16, 2012 at 02:07 PM

DTOB
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p.1 #3 · p.1 #3 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

If the file names are an indication, these photos are 37 frames apart. Maybe there were other variables introduced in between these 2 takes?

Oct 16, 2012 at 02:08 PM

Exdsc
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p.1 #4 · p.1 #4 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Actually, I took the images less than 5 minutes apart, although I formatted the card in between.

Oct 16, 2012 at 02:11 PM

DTOB
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p.1 #5 · p.1 #5 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Well then what Adam said above is probably correct. I use lossless compression on my D700 and have never noticed any ill effects. That is the concensus on the internet as well.

Does the D200 have a lossless compression? Or just lossy? If it didn't have lossless, I would shoot with no compression, just as you are.

Oct 16, 2012 at 02:59 PM

Exdsc
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p.1 #6 · p.1 #6 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

I think all RAW compression is supposedly lossless, otherwise the file is no longer RAW. But I could be wrong.

While I'm happy and relived to have found the problem with my D200, I suggest others do some test before making their own minds. D200 is an old camera and has an old compression engine.

Oct 16, 2012 at 03:19 PM

DTOB
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p.1 #7 · p.1 #7 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Well on my D700 at least, I have the option of "lossless compressed" and simply "compressed", so there is a distinction.

Oct 16, 2012 at 03:20 PM

Adam Bavier
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p.1 #8 · p.1 #8 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

The D200 is before my time, but doing some searches on its raw options, it appears Nikon applied some different processing to the D200's compressed raw. Highlights, shadows and possibly even solid patches of color might be effect negatively according to some different comments I read.

Space is fairly cheap now, so you should just use the option for no compression on your D200.

Oct 16, 2012 at 03:23 PM

Exdsc
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p.1 #9 · p.1 #9 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

In fact RAW compression is so bad in D200 that its much better to shoot fine jpg than compressed RAW, at least with jpgs the highlight detail and color rendition is not compromised.

The lossy RAW compression in modern DSLRs makes sense because sometimes when WB is too tricky its better to shoot that way than fine jpg, otherwise loss of anything in a compression is not a good idea.

Some of the entry level DSLR compress RAW by default.

Oct 16, 2012 at 04:02 PM

AndreasE
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p.1 #10 · p.1 #10 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Exdsc wrote:
I think all RAW compression is supposedly lossless, otherwise the file is no longer RAW. But I could be wrong.
Looks like you are wrong.
There is the subtle difference of "visually lossless" and "mathematically lossless". Due to the computational effort required, early compression was visuall lossless only. Later on, advances in CPUs allowed manufacturers to include mathematicall lossless as well.

Exdsc wrote:
In fact RAW compression is so bad in D200 that its much better to shoot fine jpg than compressed RAW, at least with jpgs the highlight detail and color rendition is not compromised.

I didn't have the same experience with my D200.

The lossy RAW compression in modern DSLRs makes sense because sometimes when WB is too tricky its better to shoot that way than fine jpg, otherwise loss of anything in a compression is not a good idea.
Just in case: JPEG is only able to store in a lossy format. Lossless is not an option. In addition, JPEG is also exposed to the Gamma transformation which is loss as well.

It comes back to the processing after the shot, which has much more impact than any format and storage discussion. BTW, what is your postprocessing software for RAW and JPEG files. Which version of the respective software?

Some of the entry level DSLR compress RAW by default.
To be more precise:
Entry level cameras by Nikon are factory default on JPEG only.
If the user switches to RAW, lossy compression is not the default option, it is the only option. Lossless is not available.

rgds,
Andy

Oct 16, 2012 at 05:58 PM

waysaz
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p.1 #11 · p.1 #11 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

I could never tell the difference between compressed and uncompressed raw, so I just left my D200 on compressed. Would hate to think I've been doing it wrong for almost 7 years!

Your photos appear to be exposed at least a stop apart (check the trees next to the telephone pole), so there's your blown-out sky.

Oct 16, 2012 at 08:58 PM

Exdsc
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p.1 #12 · p.1 #12 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

waysaz wrote:
I could never tell the difference between compressed and uncompressed raw, so I just left my D200 on compressed. Would hate to think I've been doing it wrong for almost 7 years!

Your photos appear to be exposed at least a stop apart (check the trees next to the telephone pole), so there's your blown-out sky.

Its easy to find out, photograph a patch of blue sky with clouds in both modes.

Oct 17, 2012 at 08:40 AM

waysaz
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p.1 #13 · p.1 #13 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Exdsc wrote:
Its easy to find out, photograph a patch of blue sky with clouds in both modes.

Dude, this is San Diego. It's either all blue or all gray (don't visit in May or June).

But I'll give it a shot sometime.

Oct 17, 2012 at 10:55 AM

Exdsc
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p.1 #14 · p.1 #14 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

waysaz wrote:
Dude, this is San Diego. It's either all blue or all gray (don't visit in May or June).

But I'll give it a shot sometime.

Or if you believe in the concept of "see no evil etc." then forget about it.

Oct 17, 2012 at 11:03 AM

M635_Guy
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p.1 #15 · p.1 #15 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

I think you might have something else going on here.

I'd reset your camera to base settings and try samples under more controlled conditions, or at least shots much closer together to minimize differences. If those shots aren't processed, the exposure seems much different...

Oct 17, 2012 at 06:37 PM

Mishu01
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p.1 #16 · p.1 #16 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

AndreasE wrote:
If the user switches to RAW, lossy compression is not the default option, it is the only option. Lossless is not available.

rgds,
Andy

Andy, you are the most qualified person to answer my next question...

Is there any CCD powered Nikon body that let you to shoot RAW either uncompressed or lossless compressed?

Oct 31, 2012 at 12:58 PM

AndreasE
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p.1 #17 · p.1 #17 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Mishu01 wrote:

Andy, you are the most qualified person to answer my next question...

Is there any CCD powered Nikon body that let you to shoot RAW either uncompressed or lossless compressed?

Uncompressed for CCD senors is available on: D1X and D1H

Lossless compression is computationally much more intensive than lossy compression. The first CPUs in DSLRs weren't that powerful given the energy envelope they had to cope with. Only later CPU generations offered the power for doing so, but this period of CPU performance was deep into the "CMOS timeline" most sensors went into.

rgds,
Andy

Oct 31, 2012 at 01:18 PM

Mishu01
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p.1 #18 · p.1 #18 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

AndreasE wrote:
Uncompressed for CCD senors is available on: D1X and D1H

Lossless compression is computationally much more intensive than lossy compression. The first CPUs in DSLRs weren't that powerful given the energy envelope they had to cope with. Only later CPU generations offered the power for doing so, but this period of CPU performance was deep into the "CMOS timeline" most sensors went into.

rgds,
Andy

Thanks a lot Andy! I'm shocked that even D3000 which was launched less than three years ago if I remember right does not have the lossless compression available. What about the new CMOS entry level like D3100 and D3200?

Oct 31, 2012 at 01:49 PM

AndreasE
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p.1 #19 · p.1 #19 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Mishu01 wrote:
Thanks a lot Andy! I'm shocked that even D3000 which was launched less than three years ago if I remember right does not have the lossless compression available. What about the new CMOS entry level like D3100 and D3200?

Why are you shocked?

1) The full consumer range starting with the D50 never had lossless compression. Here it is not a differentiation by technology, but by positioning.
2) "Consumers" with an understanding or need for lossless compression would move up the ladder to a D7000 or the like.
3) the majority of (real) consumers would be more confused than supported by this choice.This is in line with many other options Nikon offers in higher lines (think of setting MF lens data, bracketing options, AF fine adjustment, etc ...)

rgds,
andy

Oct 31, 2012 at 02:39 PM

aznature
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p.1 #20 · p.1 #20 · RAW compression in D200 is a POS

Based on the file size the left image is non-compressed....... and looks better
am i missing anything?

Oct 31, 2012 at 02:50 PM

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